Sticky labels can screwup the playback of your DVDR's

[Tommyknocker]

Try not to worry about it too much. Just be happy you don't have labeling problems. Rest assured, mine went away when I started using core sticky labels, and they work just fine. Regardless of what caused the problem, my solution is feasible and esthetically plaesing.

[Capmaster]

Never have labeled DVDs. I print an insert for the jewel case and leave it at that. I figure I can remember that the DVD inside the box matches what the box label says

[dudeman316]

I too am a member of the " bad luck label club". I have Memorex Matte 3 in 1 labels, used on different brands of media all result in skipping at then end. However, my neighbor always buys Verbatim DVD+R's, and no probs with the same label. Is it possible that different brands of media can handle the labels better? Anyway at least these 3 in 1 labels have a core to print on.

6. COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN, COMPLAIN. As in earlier messages, label companies won't admit their fault in the problem unless they hear from unsatisfied customers. If you don't have a problem, complain anyway. A better solution is the only way to prevent an inevidable failure during playback. If your labels work fine now, just wait until you have to buy a better DVD players that has more heat and less tolerance for inconsistent data strings.

NVOGEL, I am totally with ya, I have already emailed Memorex & Fellowes NEATO to let them know what their labels are doing to my DVD's. I recommend that any and all that read this thread email our label manufacturer with the same complaints of freezing, pixelating, & non-playable discs.


***Update***

Fellowes NEATO emailed me back this was there response:

Our guess is that you purchased some older stock as this issue has been addressed and corrected. Please supply the following information so we may better assist.

[dudeman316]

Hs any one tried using the mini disc labels on a full size DVD? A lil more than the core labels. Please anyone's thoughts.

[dudeman316]

***Update***

Memorex emailed me back with this response:

Yes, this can happen. This happens due to the contraction of the Adhesive used in the labels, this causes a slight warping of the disc and thus causes the pixilation of the images. The best way to resolve this is to only label the center hub of the disc. This does not affect the media portion and the issue is not present. We are working on a solution for this issue as well as other label manufactures. The reason that this only applies to DVD media is that it is heated much more than a CD and thus causes the expansion and contraction more.

[Tommyknocker]

I guess Memorex listens to me...

[jimmalenko]

Canon i865 straight onto printables for me.

A few guys at work bought burners after I mentioned backing up your own DVDs and kept coming to me saying they were having playback problems. I asked one bloke to bring in a couple of discs that exhibited the behaviour and a couple of blanks from the same spindle of blanks if possible. Sure enough the backups had sticky labels on them. I did a disc-to-hd-to-disc disc copy in Nero back to the blanks. I told them to try the newly-burned copies and sure enough, the problems went away.

They both thought I was a DVD god (sorry MackemX )

[RickTheRed]

R200 with printable disks work fine for me.
Final look is often better than the original if I take the time to finetune the picture with Photoshop.
And it looks better than labels.
And the R200 is cheap!
And it prints "like labs" photos.

[dudeman316]

I think Fellowes NEATO is gonna send me some labels

[jntaylor63]

Just use Hub / Core labels.

They are cheap (SureThing's at 19.00 for 520) and are at the most center to reduce wobble. I have been using them for all of my DVD back-ups without issue. You have just enough room to add text and even a logo or two. What I do is scan the orginal dvd art and then use it as the back ground for my hub label.

[dudeman316]

Saves ink too lol

[bryansand]

I'm having my own potential label problem, but I'm not sure. I have been backing up my entire Twilight Zone collection (43 discs), and I decided to put them all on TY's to ensure good quality. I have always used Ritek G03's and G04's prior. Well, the discs all had freeze ups ironically at about the same point of each episode (4 episodes per disc, and they all freeze). To isolate the problem, I copied the data from one of the TY's to a G04, and voila, no freezing! I had labels on both discs applied with a CD Stomper. I think the following may be the cause. . . You can physically feel that the TY's are thinner and more flimsy than the Riteks, so I think the extra weight of the label affects the TY's much more so and thus is causing the lockups. Does this sound logical? I don't know what else would explain some of the best media out there having more problems than lesser media! Btw, I'm using a Liteon 811S DVD-RW drive.

[dudeman316]

What's the best method one should use to safely remove an existing CD/DVD Label?

[Capmaster]

What's the best method one should use to safely remove an existing CD/DVD Label?

Soak in warm, soapy water overnight. Not hot.

The label will soften enough that you can gently peel or scrape it off with something like a wooden spoon. Never scrape with anything harder than that.

Then let it sit on a paper towel for a few hours and air-dry. Don't rub very hard with the paper towel as many are abrasive

[junkmalle]

What's the best method one should use to safely remove an existing CD/DVD Label?

I use Goo Gone:

http://store.yahoo.com/always-organized/googone.html

Coat the label with Goo Gone and wait 10 or 15 minutes. The label and most of the glue will come off easily. Use a little more Goo Gone and your finger tip to rub off the remaining spots of glue. Finally a quick wash with mild dishwashing detergent and water. Blot dry with a soft cloth or paper towel. No rubbing!

I've heard of people using WD-40 but I've never tried that...

[dudeman316]

It doesnt hurt to fully submerse the entire DVD?
and junkmalle i will look into that Goo Gone as well.

[Capmaster]

It doesnt hurt to fully submerse the entire DVD?
and junkmalle i will look into that Goo Gone as well.

Not if it's a good DVD, no. There's a glue seal between layers and the glue isn't water-soluble. If you've got ultra-cheap media like Princo that sometimes delaminate, then it might get in, but if that's the case you've got bigger problems than just labels.

The quality stuff will do just fine in a pan of warm water

[dudeman316]

Thanks for all the replys.

Fellowes NEATO claims they have resolved this issue with their newer labels. Anyone vouche for them?

[dudeman316]

I have just received a FREE pack of 20 Glossy labels from Fellowes NEATO because of taking NVOGEL's advice earlier in this thread & complaing about the damage to my media & my waste of time & ink. I urge all to complain.

[dudeman316]

Complaining several times to these label companies works.

Memorex finally replied back to me with this:

The best thing that I have to offer is a refund. If you would provide me with the following information I will have refund processed.

I still urge all to email these companies & complain complain complain!


Oh & junkmalle, I took your advice with Goo Gone, can't beat that stuff. I found it at a local BigLots for $1.29 for a 4 oz bottle. Beats soap & water & scrubbing.

[kbuegel]

OK Folks, I have new info on the label problems (I think):

I have had excellent success reviving unplayable DVD's by just peeling off the label. So, it occured to me to test how much of the label was required to be peeled off before the disk starts to play normally. The answer is that in all but one disk I tried, I only needed to peel off about 1/3 to 1/2 of the label to make the disk work fine. And, amazingly, it did not matter if I peeled the label off of one side of the disk leaving it potentially badly out of balance.
In a couple dozen test cases, I peeled half the label off, splitting it right down the middle through the ring. This should technically leave the disk badly unbalanced, but in fact, they all worked great. Not only did the previously unplayable disk come back to life, but there was absolutely no problem with playback with just half the label attached. I also tried various methods of cutting out wedges of the label, or just slicing groves in the label to reduce the tension. Of the 30 or so that I tried, only 1 disk was finicky enough to require the entire label to be removed before playing correctly. And, in ALL cases, removing the label revived the DVD. So there was no need to recopy them.

So this should lay to rest any speculation about imbalanced disks causing playback issues. The label placement has absolutely nothing to do with the problems. It does seem to be related to the heat generated by the laser. This could by why different players react differently to the same DVD, since laser intensity and cooling methods vary greatly among DVD players. Also, it certainly seems possible that the paper label simply holds the heat on the DVD and perhaps the DVD can't dissipate the heat correctly due to the paper, which is what causes the playback problems. With plastic labels, this may not be the case. Whether its related to adhesives constricting and deforming the disk, or some other heat related issue, I'm not sure. But its definitely NOT a balance issue.

As for newer, thinner labels- I did buy a pack of Avery matte white labels that were very thin. I did not think much of it at the time, and actually the labels had trouble releasing from the backing because of the thinness (avery's use little tabs and the tabs would break off much too easily). However, these thin-labeled DVD's are mixed with my other DVD's and all are slowly becoming unplayable. So, I'm not sure that the new thin label makes a difference. And, as most of you know, it usually takes 2 months for the playback problems to start since its related to the adhesive dry time. So just cuz you slap a new label on a DVD and it works immediately does not mean you've solved the problem.

My latest attempt at a labeling solution was to purchase clear labels which are plastic instead of paper. These are very thin, and probably won't cause troubles. However, since the label is clear, there is no white background which is what printers are calibrated for. Thus the labels print out very dark since white is normally not a color that the printer produces. When putting a one of these clear labels on the dvd, it looks like a film negative, and is much too dark. Its interesting looking, but not very functional.
So does anyone have a suggestion on a printer that actually lays down white ink? Seems like there must be some that do. And its not something my regular printer is capable of. Mixing all the colors produces black, not white.

And, before anyone suggests it, yes I could put a clear label over a blank white printable DVD. In fact, I plan to try this in the future. But the problem I'm trying to solve now is what to do with the 300+ DVD's I currently own with peeled-off labels that have logos and ink pen writing on them which needs to be covered by an opaque label. So I'm open to suggestion on how to best re-label these DVD's.

[dudeman316]

I have noticed that the newer Felloews Neato Gloss Labels that I purchased sometime back & put on about 10 DVDR's & they are still playable after several months of storage. Maybe consider trying them. I know to stay away from Memorex Lables for sure. I am stuck with a 120 pk plus DVD's I need to peel the labels off of. Another thing u may wanna consider is using Core/Hub Labels.

Oh & I believe the issue with the playback problem is a heat issue, nothing to do with balance.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=952241&highlight=#952241

[junkmalle]

So this should lay to rest any speculation about imbalanced disks causing playback issues. The label placement has absolutely nothing to do with the problems.

Did it occur to you that different players might have different problems?

That said, I suspect most of the time the cause is the labels warping the disks because of the different coefficient of heat expansion of plastic and paper. That is what some of the label manufactures have admitted.

It just bugs me when someone runs a few experiments on a few labels and a few players and makes blanket claims to have solved the problem for all players and all labels everywhere.

[kbuegel]

Yes, well, blanket statements have been made all throughout this thread, and they are very annoying and most are incorrect.

I can tell you for certain that the playback problems from labels have absolutely nothing to do with balance. Unbalanced disks play just fine in almost any player, and putting labels off-center or adding partial labels to one side of the disk does not affect playback in any way.

The heat generated by the lasers on DVD players is significant, and as media gets more durable, the heat rating on lasers has been going up and up. However, I'm not convinced that label shrinkage has anything to do with the playback issues either, since it does not seem likely that a cool DVD could heat up in less than 3 seconds, shrink the label, and thus become unplayable.


So here are the facts:
1) removal of labels makes unplayable DVD's work fine (or sometimes partial removal of the label). Also if the gummy residue left over from peeling off the label is left on the DVD, it does not affect playback.
2) unplayable DVD's often start having problems at around 2/3rd of the way through, but usually it gets worse over time and may extend to the entire disk.
3) in most cases, playback problems don't occur for weeks or months. So disks that are burned, labeled and tested may play fine for many days before playback issues start. Or, in some cases, the playback problems start immediately.
4) All brands of media are affected by this labeling problem, including expensive brands, cheap brands, DVD+R's, -R's, RW's, 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x etc. CD's also can have this issue but it is rare.
5) Paper labels cause this issue, not plastic labels. Full-face or partial face labels both have these problems. All brands of paper labels have these problems: Avery, Memorex, Neato, etc. The only paper labels that seem immune from this issue are hub labels (small labels covering only the unplayable clear center of the DVD).
6) Different DVD players react differently to the playback problems. A few DVD players will play these DVD's with no trouble at all, but most will not. The same disk played in multiple DVD players will have different intensity of playback problems on each player, although in most cases the area about 2/3rds through the disk is the worst.
7) Disks are unplayable within seconds of being exposed to the laser. Some computer DVD readers can read from the disk if allowed to retry many times, or let the dvd sit idle (cool off) and then retry.
8) Visual inspection does not reveal disk warpage or label shrinkage, or labels peeling up.
9) The labels do not interfere with loading mechanisms on players or DVD's getting stuck in the player.
10) Label manufacturers have released thinner versions of paper labels in an attempt to fix this issue. Nobody is sure yet if they work.


In my own personal experiments, I've found a few more things-
* Slicing the labels to remove tension does not help, but removing large chunks of the label does fix the problems, even if the removed chunks leave the disk unbalanced.
* Burning the DVD with labels already attached makes no difference. Same issues occur.
* Copying data from an unplayable labeled DVD can usually be accomplished by letting the DVD sit idle for 15 minutes in the player and then starting the read process in the same spot that was previously unreadable. But within a few seconds the DVD becomes unreadable again.


So, based on these facts, I think its safe to conclude a few things:
1) This is not a balance problem, or caused by wobble or off-centered labels. Nor does the weight of the ink affect the balance.
2) This is not related to media quality or label quality.
3) This is not related to ink bleed-through on the label.
4) This in not a result of chemical deterioration of the top layer of the DVD by the adhesives or the ink, or sharpies.


My GUESS as to what the problem is:
A) The back of the paper label may be reflective enough and flat enough to cause the laser to seek to it and attempt to read it, rather than reading the actual data on the DVD. The adhesive drying may be the catalyst for this effect.
B) The thickness of DVD could be a problem. Perhaps the laser is attempting to focus on the wrong depth within the DVD if its overall thickness is too great (paper labels are fairly thick).
C) Shrinkage of the paper labels and/or adhesives caused by heat creates tension on the upper surface of the DVD causing it to warp or deflect during playback. (least likely, in my opinion, but still possible).
D) Paper label causes heat retention. The DVD cannot dissipate the heat from the laser correctly, and the media heats up and becomes unplayable. DVD media over a certain temperature is unreadable. This could occur just in the localized area of the DVD that is being read, not requiring it to heat up the whole DVD.

Or, a combination of the above.

[Solarflair]

what about inkjet printable dvds? how does that fit into the picture. is printable dvd media suspected to be prone to that kind of theoretical errors as well??

[SCDVD]

This is the most amazing thread I have ever read. There are endless reasons expressed about the cause of this problem - and they are all wrong. Here it is boys and girls. This problem is caused by contraction of the label that bows the disc slightly. This may not seem like much but it is enough to cause the disk to become "out of focus" to the laser in the player. The problem varies by the brand of label, the stiffness of the disk, temperature, humidity but the very, Very, VERY worst thing you can do is to apply a label fresh off of the printer while it is still damp from the ink. As it dries, it shrinks quite a bit and bows the disk. Now for you knuckle draggers, don't bother to hold the disk up to the light and squint while you attempt to see the bow. You won't see a thing. It only takes a few microns to defocus the laser on the player. Some players are already at the edge of read problems with recordable media. The reflectivity of recordable media is different from pressed discs. Players that weren't designed with DVD recordable media in mind have problems reading a recorded disc. So any little variation is enough to cause outright failure to play on these players. This isn't another "what do you think about this?" postulation. I am a drive development engineer and I know wherof I speak. So pardon my little interuption. Please carry on with you wild notions.

[Solarflair]

This is the most amazing thread I have ever read. There are endless reasons expressed about the cause of this problem - and they are all wrong. Here it is boys and girls. This problem is caused by contraction of the label that bows the disc slightly. This may not seem like much but it is enough to cause the disk to become "out of focus" to the laser in the player. The problem varies by the brand of label, the stiffness of the disk, temperature, humidity but the very, Very, VERY worst thing you can do is to apply a label fresh off of the printer while it is still damp from the ink. As it dries, it shrinks quite a bit and bows the disk. Now for you knuckle draggers, don't bother to hold the disk up to the light and squint while you attempt to see the bow. You won't see a thing. It only takes a few microns to defocus the laser on the player. Some players are already at the edge of read problems with recordable media. The reflectivity of recordable media is different from pressed discs. Players that weren't designed with DVD recordable media in mind have problems reading a recorded disc. So any little variation is enough to cause outright failure to play on these players. This isn't another "what do you think about this?" postulation. I am a drive development engineer and I know wherof I speak. So pardon my little interuption. Please carry on with you wild notions.

Would you know if inkjet printable media are bound to the same fate? how do they fit into this equasion?

[Tommyknocker]

This is the most amazing thread I have ever read. There are endless reasons expressed about the cause of this problem - and they are all wrong....

Really? Click here. This is the same solution you've come up with, but it's months if not years old. You definitely know what you're talking about, it's just that your solution is a day late, and a dollar short.

[SCDVD]

For Solarflair: Printable media is a great way to go. It isn't affected the way labels are. The only minor drawback is they should not be allowed to get wet because it will make the ink smear.

For Tommyknocker: I don't know what you are tryng to say. I didn't invent the problem nor did I invent the solution. I have no doubt that others are aware of the problem. I was simply sharing a fact that is clear that many don't know. Many of us don't have the time to read every comment in every thread in this forum as you apparantly do.

[Tommyknocker]

You're the one who stated categorically no one but you had the right reason why labels cause playback problems. I was only correcting your gross oversight. You have the right reason, but so have som many other gurus before you. I say it again: you are a day light and a dollar short with your explanation. You're the one who said everyone who posted before you were wrong:

There are endless reasons expressed about the cause of this problem - and they are all wrong.

(The highlight is mine)

Do I make myself ant clearer?