Sticky labels can screwup the playback of your DVDR's

[Madz]

[Madz]

Sorry about those extra posts, but I kept getting an error (below) so didn't know if it had taken. Mods, please remove extras.

[Madz]

Ditto here too.

[Madz]

I tried to quote rixware, but it kept giving me this upon post attempt:

General Error: Could not insert new word matches.

But OK, I was looking at the R300M (~$240). But maybe, just maybe.

[Espen]

I have labeld my DVDs for almost two years now and was quite frustrated that the labels sometimes did screw up the playback. This happend to all media, but the cheap once seems to be worst and allwys failed together with picky players.

Now after two years of testings and research it seems like I have found the perfect media for labels. The media I'm talking about is Datasafe(Ritek G04) also known as one of the absolute best Ritek discs out there! I have burnt atleast 50 dvds so far and tested them in atleast 10 players without any problems at all. This is the first brand that have worked out perfect even thue all Riteks G04 I have tested so far have give very good results.

I have no idea what the long term results will be, but I most say I'm not that affraid of the future.......

Here what I use:

Burner:
LG 4040b

Disc:
Datasafe 4x DVD-r Ritek G04

Labels:
Avery 9660A Full face labels Glossy
Avery 8676A Full face labels Matte
Neato Matte labels

Labeling System:
Afterburner

[ozstar100]

Hi,

I have burnt a few hundred DVDs Princos white top and put labels on them that I had printed at a Kwik Print printer with a laser printer.. Nice and shiny etc.

I authored with Media Studio 7 burnt with AO106D using Ulead Workshop.

About 6 have come back not being able to be played in some players.. (all different)

I sent two off recently that I didn't label but printed with my new Epson R200. Got emails saying they play perfectly..

One player was a theatre system.. LG..MODEL DA-3530..

As I still have 3/400 labels I wil still use them until finished and use the R200 with returns..

Can't wait to get media that works with labels and ALL players.. or, glossy ink printers.

[LeeBear]

It's been awhile since I've posted in this forum, but I thought this post was pretty interesting and thought I should add some insight to it. From all the postings it seems people are pretty much divided on the label issue. Half says they have no problems with labels the other half do have problems, always with the same symptoms.... the movie gets pixelated near the end of the disc. There's been speculations and theories on what causes this but nobody has done any quantifiable test to once and for all answer the question, do sticky labels screwup playback.

Well I did a test to hopefully try and get to the bottom of this. I burnt a DVD movie at 4x onto a RitekG04 DVD-R disc. Ran Kprobe and did a PI/PO error scan on the disc. Then I put a sticky label onto the same DVD-R (using a CDStomper) and ran the test again to see the difference. The graphs are below so people can draw there own conclusions if they don't agree with my assessment. The top graphs from the disc before the label and the bottom disc after the label is put on.

Firstly for the people who doesn't understand what PI/PO errors are you can google it and find out. The important thing though to know is that the standard for DVD media is that the PI error should not exceed 280 and the PO error should not exceed 32 (ignoring single spikes). Also note that the error rate is dependent on the device that's reading it (in my graphs it's a Liteon DVD-ROM) and of course the speed at which the disc is being read, with a slower speed resulting in less errors obviously. For my tests to conserve time I just read the disc at max speed of the DVD-ROM since I'm not really interested in the 'real' amount of errors when played back at 1x (like on a DVD player) but to see if the label makes a difference.



As you can see from the graphs, it can be safely concluded that "YES" sticky labels can screwup playback. As you can see from the first graphs (disc without label) the error rates are steady throughout the scan, and are well below the standards. It should have no problems on any player. Now if you look at the second graphs (disc with label) you can see that the error rates start off the same but gradually climbs higher and higher (towards the end of disc) and near the end of the disc the error rate is higher then the standards allow. This disc would probably play fine until near the end of the disc where some players will start having problems... this is consistant with people's experience with pixilating near the end of the movie. In the real world test of this disc I burnt it played fine on both DVD players I tried them on, a Phillips and a Panasonic. You maybe wondering why if the error was above 280 on the graph it didn't cause any problems on playback in the realworld. Remember the error rate is device and speed dependent, a setup DVD player reads at only 1x speed my graphs are for the max speed and even then only the end of the disc shows error rate above the standards.

CONCLUSION:

Can labels screwup the playback of DVDR's?
Yes

Why do some people experience playback problems and others don't?
Some players are more sensitive to bad media. Also the media you put the label on makes a difference. Although the label does cause more errors the error rate can still be below the ECMA standards.

Why do labels increase the error rate?
This is debateable and everyone has there own theories. My person opinion is the label is 'warping' the disc and causing focusing problems for the dvd player. Have you ever noticed when you peel off a label from it's sheet it has a tendency to curl up? Now if the label has this 'curl up' tendency when you place it on your disc this would act as a small force pulling the edge of the disc up. This is what I mean by 'warping' the disc. It might just be warping the disc enough to cause the errors. This would explain why the error rate increases near the end of the disc, because the disc would be warped the most at the outter edge.

I hope that helps... time to get a CD printer
-LeeBear

[ozstar100]

This does make a lot of sense.

Thanks for the test and showing us the actual graphs.

It is a real pain in the proverbial when one is confronted with a problem with no satisfactory answer such as the label yes - label no debate.

It is the same as the media stuff.. this works, that works and it all seems so subjective.

There must be stand alone players out there that can be considered to be 'flaky' when it comes to playing burnt discs, however when one sells or gives to hundreds of people without knowing their player make and model, one has to take the risk that these 'flaky' players exist. So even if we knew these particular players, we ask everuonbe what plyaer they have before getting the DVD to them.

I guess it is all about companies who make players mainly for a 'movie' watching market and as long as their laser is strong enough for that, they feel okay.

It would be good if somehow all the problems and results that come to this forum can't be passed on to the manufacturer so they can test their players to see waht it is that makes them not play some burnt discs.

I guess it will all come out in the wash as time goes by.. better media.. better lasers etc..

I'm already old, can't wait too much longer!!


In the meantime I going to use the DVD printer more than the labels.

As a footnote.. I tried a new DVD disc with the same burn method as the Princo I use, and even tho' I printed direct to it, about 10 mins in from the end of the 74 show, it started to freeze, release,freeze, release etc.

I treid another newly burnt Princo and it worked fine.

So there you go, even with no label.. some media can be flaky as well.

[junkmalle]

LeeBear,

Great bit of detective work! I can't rule out your "warp" theory but I have an alternative suggestion:

Adding a label increases the mass of the disk and can create an uneven distribution of mass (an unbalanced condition). There's no way to perfectly place a label on a disk. Even if it looks perfect to the naked eye the label will be slightly off center. Even if you could place it exactly on center you can't be sure that the thickness of the paper and glue is perfectly uniform. In short adding a label will usually slightly unbalance a DVD. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

Why would this cause problems on the outer edge of the disk but not the inner? Because DVD players use constant linear velocity, not constant angular velocity. The disk spins faster when reading near the center, slower when reading near the edge. If you listen closely you can probably hear the difference in pitch when the heads seek across a disk.

The wobble caused by an unbalanced disk would vary with frequency. It's not as simple as "the faster it spins, the more it wobbles". There is a resonant frequency at which the wobble will be at its worst.

Have you ever been in a car where one of the balance weights has fallen off a tire? At slow speeds you don't notice any problems. As you speed up the tire starts to wobble. It gets worse and worse until you reach a certain speed. Above that speed the wobble weakens and eventually disappears.

Tire manufacturers try to make their tires as balanced as possible. But they're always a little bit off. When new tires are mounted on you rims small metal weights are usually added to more fully balance them. Go out and look at your car -- you'll can usually see the weights mounted where the tire meets the rim.

I postulate that the resonant frequency of a DVD with label is somewhere near the speed the disk spins when the DVD players is reading from the outer edges.

There are two factors at work here. Adding a label increases the total mass. This would decrease the resonant frequency. But adding a label will slightly unbalance the disk.

It might be an interesting experiment to run your tests again with the DVD spinning at a lower frequencies. It won't be definitive because most DVD drives have some wobble reduction mechanism. The mechanism may be better able to cope with the lower frequency wobble. Or it may not.

In any case, thanks for running your test and posting the results.

[johns0]

I tend to go with the warp disc theory over the unbalanced disc theory,other people have applied just half a label to a dvd/cd just to see what would happen and no adverse affects,only when the whole dvd/cd is covered.

[rixware]

LeeBear, great work! Proof positive that the sticky label DOES make a difference, and CAN make discs unreadable. I just wish we could get that info to the label companies -- who still deny that their labels could possibly cause any problems. Maybe they could figure out why and create error-free labels (even though I wouldn't use them now that I have my R200).

junkmalle, nice theory. I'm afraid that my experience would tend to refute it. I told the whole story earlier in this long thread, but here's the short version:

1. The errors tend to increase as the adhesive on the label dries. Discs I made last October started showing errors in January and were virtually unplayable by March. (This is in addition to some discs which showed errors as soon as the label was applied.)

2. On any discs that show errors -- whether they happened instantly or came on gradually -- simply removing the paper part of the label made them playable again.

3. It was very difficult (using just soap and water) to get all of the label off. After removing the paper portion, large bits of glue were left in a random pattern. This would certainly lead to unbalanced spin. Yet the discs played perfectly.

I lean toward the theory that the tension of the paper in the label changes the laser angle. I wish there were some way to test this...

Rick
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[winifreid]

I doubt either theory. The balance theory seems to proved wrong by the test of half a label. Also, when lables are removed, unvenen amounts of glue are left behind that would lead to some slight changes in balance, but the disks play. I have only had the problem with a couple of disks and then they played after the label was removed. I also doubt the warp idea. If you look at the label sheet, it lies flat. How could the label warp a hard piece of plastic and not a thin sheet of paper? Also, it seems that a half label would warp the disk even more.

[TheFamilyMan]

I can't resist this thread - I use sticky labels and have not had any problems (yet). I have some disks that are about a year old and they play fine to the end.

The curling label theory: My labeling kit suggest that when you peel the label, start by peeling off a very small portion. Then flip the whole sheet upside down. Hold down the label by the part you have peeled against the surface its on (e.g. table top) and pull the sheet from the label. When this is done properly, the label come off completely flat. I've never let it sit around like this for more than a minute or two and I've never seen it start to curl up on its own. Someone should experiment with differing times and paper types to measure the curl rate.

Now the glue/paper shinking over time...who knows?

A popular myth (maybe true) about vinyl LPs: the shrink rap covering the jacket can warp the record over time. But...who cares....

[JMO]

Just had a Sherlock Holmes moment - it may be the hub clutch used in some models of player that causes the "some will, some won't" problem. When the disc drawer retracts into the player, the disc is both lifted out of the loading tray and clamped top and bottom by the hub clutch and drive. The laser focuses on the disc as it spins up. The label makes the disc slightly thicker and the laser has to focus shorter than it would on a standard pre-recorded disc. The variance comes in with the clutch itself, whether it comes in contact with the label itself and therefore foreshortens the focus of the laser.

Strikes me, though that nobody might want to verify this because you'd have to open up your player to find out.

[junkmalle]

rixware,

Thanks for the details of your experience. Of course, there's no reason that both our hypotheses can't be true. Some players may be more sensitive to one problem or the other.

When I've removed labels I've always used Goo Gone to compeletely remove the label AND glue. I didn't want to put a sticky DVD in my player! In any case, every disk that wouldn't play properly with a label (old or new) worked fine after removing the label.

I've seen JMO's hypothesis (paper near the hub) mentioned before too. That one seems least likely to me (I WAS using full coverage labels though!) but can't be ruled out. I know my player get real upset if I put two DVDs in the tray!

Maybe I'll try a few labels that don't cover the clear center area (hub problem) and some half labels (worst case balance problem) just as a test...

[sogarapleteame]

Hey!!!! I agree with you 100%.

Definitively: no label no problem. But, for example, in my PS2 I have no problems at all.

[johns0]

JMO,no go,the dvd is lifted from the bottom where there is no label so there is no difference.

[joy]

My experience with label was a nightmare. I was playing a disk in my Pioneer Karaoke DVD player. The disk has sticky label on it. After the movie, pushed the open tray button to retrieve the disk out. Surprise!!!! The tray was empty. (Suddenly it came to my mind all the bad stuffs that I had read before in this site about those labels.) So I tried closing the tray and turned off the player, but it won’t turn off. I unplugged it, opened the case and discovered something terrible happened to the “LABEL” and the disk. The disk was someplace else inside the compartment and a quarter of the label was peeled off from the disk and that part was stuck to a metal part inside the tray compartment which explains that “empty tray” earlier. So what I did was to struggle in peeling off the label from the disk while it was still “inside”, then after that forced the disk out through an opening that was just enough for it to come out. I was worried that my player was damaged after all this maneuvering so I plugged it back, put a disk inside, played it but so far only minor(hopefully) problems.

Lesson learned-never again to put any label on my disk

[junkmalle]

joy,

I've read that labels can come off while playing but yours is the only first hand report I've ever seen. Thanks for the great horror story!

[rixware]

How could the label warp a hard piece of plastic and not a thin sheet of paper?

One theory is that the plastic of the disc, the adhesive, and the paper all heat up at different rates and to different degrees. This can cause a situation where the centrifugal force created by the spinning causes the disc to bow ever so slighty -- just enough to change the laser angle beyond its tolerances.

I'm not an engineer, and I'm sure someone can explain this theory in more detail. But this is what I've read.

Rick
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[DVD_Bar]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I have applied labels to approx. 30-40 DVD's and never once had a problem.

I have used High Glossy labels from CD stomper and from Label Gear, print some fairly ink intensive labels (Photos, letters, backgrounds...) with an Epson Photo Ink Jet printer, let the labels dry, and apply carefully with a CD stomper labeler (after applying carefully... radially from center outward rub/apply them so they firmly stick without bubbles).

Never had any skipping... and these have been run in a variety of DVD players.

[johns0]

Only 30-40 dvds labeled isnt anything,others here have burned and labeled 10x as many and dont have problems,its a problem that does affect some,myself included.

[lchiu7]

I have had intermittent label problems too - with some players they work fine, with others I get pixelation etc as the disc plays on.

I guess what I can't understand is, the commercial discs I rent all have plastic labels on them together with two security strips and so far I have had no problem with reading these discs

I wonder if there is a difference between a labelled commercial disk and a lablled home burnt one?

Larry

[rixware]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I have applied labels to approx. 30-40 DVD's and never once had a problem.

Making discs for your own use on your own player is one thing. I make discs professionally, and have to make sure they will play on as many players as possible. (I burned approximately 2000 discs in 2003, and have burned around 1500 already in 2004.)

Even in your situation, however, sticky labels are a virtual guarantee of problems somewhere down the road. Don't use them. You WILL regret it eventually. (If you read carefully above, you'll find that problems do not necessarily appear right away, but over a period of weeks, months or years.)

The great thing is that the alternative is about six million times better and actually (if you shop carefully) cheaper per disc: printable media and the Epson R200 printer.

I wonder if there is a difference between a labelled commercial disk and a lablled home burnt one?

Commercial discs are made with a process that bears no relation whatsoever to writable media. They may look the same, but are COMPLETELY different in their physical structure and manufacturing method. It's apples to oranges.

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[lchiu7]

I wonder if there is a difference between a labelled commercial disk and a lablled home burnt one?

Commercial discs are made with a process that bears no relation whatsoever to writable media. They may look the same, but are COMPLETELY different in their physical structure and manufacturing method. It's apples to oranges.

+

I guess I wasn't clear enough in this note. I was wondering is there any difference between a disc you burn yourself and label, and a commercial disc that a rental company applies a label to in terms of additional weight, off centre weight balance etc. . In my situation they apply two thin strips of material on the DVD (to trigger a security system at the door) and then apply a thin piece of plastic film over the entire DVD. These play fine on my machines whereas I have problems with some discs that I have labelled myself

[rixware]

Because the two types of discs are so different, labels cannot affect commercial discs in the same way they affect discs you make yourself.

Here are the basics:

In commercial discs, the pits which contain the data (1s and 0s) are cut into metal making them permanent. In writable discs, the pits are created in a layer of dye by a laser. Commercial discs are significantly less likely to have data errors of any type under any circumstances (short of scratches). With DVD-R et. al., given what needs to take place in the writing process, it's something of a miracle that writable DVDs are even possible.

I think it has been well established (by rental stores) that sticky labels have no affect whatsoever on the playback of commercial discs. This is not a surprise because the data layer is created in such a radically different fashion and is not susceptible to the same problems as writable discs. This also refutes all of the "wobble theories" you may hear about. I think it can be safely concluded that wobble during playback is not the reason sticky labels cause data problems with writable discs.

And given that writable DVDs have a certain fragility built into the data storage process in the first place, it is similarly likely that something attached to the disc -- especially if it altered the plane of the disc -- could have adverse consequences to the data integrity.

Of course, no one yet knows for sure.

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[LeeBear]

I have had intermittent label problems too - with some players they work fine, with others I get pixelation etc as the disc plays on.

I guess what I can't understand is, the commercial discs I rent all have plastic labels on them together with two security strips and so far I have had no problem with reading these discs

I wonder if there is a difference between a labelled commercial disk and a lablled home burnt one?

Larry

Commercial disks don't use 'stick' on labels. The labels on commercial disk are usually silk screen onto the disck The fact that rental places uses security strips that causes unblance to the disk yet no playback problem are experience is why many rule out that the sticky label makes the disc unbalance and that's what's causing the problem. Even if you don't experience problems with sticky labels I'd still avoid using them now until a clearer answer to the cause of the problem is found. Even if your disc plays fine with a label on it, my test clearly shows the error rate is much higher, so your disc is that much closer to not working.

-LeeBear

[junkmalle]

I think it has been well established (by rental stores) that sticky labels have no affect whatsoever on the playback of commercial discs. This is not a surprise because the data layer is created in such a radically different fashion and is not susceptible to the same problems as writable discs. This also refutes all of the "wobble theories" you may hear about. I think it can be safely concluded that wobble during playback is not the reason sticky labels cause data problems with writable discs.

I don't think the fact that sticky labels don't cause problems on pressed DVDs means you can state conclusively they can't cause problems on writable media. The lower reflectivity of DVD R/RW media makes it harder for DVD players to read them. If you toss in the additional difficulty of increased wobble they may cross the line from "difficult" to "not possible".

And I'm not so sure the fact that some rental stores use sticky labels means they don't cause occasional problems on some players. It may just mean that the benefits (to the store) of using labels (RFID tag + label = fewer stolen disks) outweigh the risks (an occasional disk that doesn't play in a small percentage of players).

[rixware]

If rental stores use them, you can be sure they cause no (not less) problems. If they caused any problems at all, the stores and the industry would figure out another security procedure.

And all I'm saying is that this fact elminates wobble as a potential factor in why labels cause problems on writables. If wobble were a factor, those discs would not play -- or would at least experience some problems in some players. And if wobble were truly a factor, the glue that's left after I remove the paper part of the labels would still cause a problem (it's thick in spots, and randomly distributed). Once you remove the paper, they play fine -- even with a bunch of glue remnants left on them.

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[freebird1963]

So how are the commercial movie ones we buy labeled ?
I looked at several different ones of mine and they kinda looked like a label but I am not sure.
Or are the "silked screened" on ?

I would lilke to make my dvd backups look pretty in color.

THanks
Mark