Sticky labels can screwup the playback of your DVDR's

[rixware]

Craig,

Thank you for starting this topic and for, ahem, sticking with it.

Would you be willing to put together a summary of the issues and conclusions regarding sticky labels? Let me explain why I'm asking.

Over the past year I've made over a thousand DVD+R discs for paying customers. Every single one of those discs has had a sticky label (Memorex labels at first, then switching to Neato about 9 months ago). I do testing myself, and nothing leaves my studio which does not play. I'm also pretty confident that customers would be sounding alarms if their discs were not playable. I heard no such alarms until a couple of months ago.

The first time a customer reported problems with their discs pixellating and stalling, I attributed it to media issues. The problem went away and I didn't think twice about it. The second customer was more persistent, and her order was more stubborn: each set of discs I made for her had the same exact problem across several players in her family. That's when I checked some discs I had made for family and friends and found that they too were no longer playable.

Following advice I found here, I have begun removing the sticky labels on the discs which do not work, and they all have come back to life and now play perfectly. (It's actually a relief because now I know what to do if any other customers come forward.) This has convinced me that the sticky labels are to blame for these problems.

But I must hasten to point out that actual problems are still limited to a very small minority of the discs I make. Within one order recently, for example, I had discs that worked perfectly, discs that worked at first but went bad after some time had passed, and discs that were bad from the start. I've had discs that showed errors immediately on playback and others that break up only later in the program.

This makes me wonder if my technique for applying the labels may be partially to blame, or if the quality of the label batch makes the difference, or even the distribution of ink on the label.

The general impression I get is that all sticky labels are bad, and yet I've had a large measure of success with them. So I'm interested in figuring out what about them causes the data read problems, and if there are controllable parameters which can increase the likelihood of success when applying them.

I should add that I've already made the decision to switch to printable media, but have read (on Amazon.com customer reviews) that the same problems can occur there. That leads me to my original question, which is actually several questions:

1. Why is data not read properly when a label is attached?

a. Imbalance (disc wobble or inconsistent speed)
b. Bowing (incorrect laser angle)
c. Degradation of the data layer (reflective surface corrupted)

2. Which of these potential problems is the actual culprit?

a. Air bubbles (poor attachment)
b. Ink distribution (label design)
c. Heat (player and storage condition variables)
d. Small imperfections in label placement

3. Do certain label types resist these problems better than others?

4. Do certain media brands resist these problems better than others?

5. Does the type of adhesive matter?

6. Does label thickness make a difference?

I read the NIST report linked above, but it gave little indication of why sticky labels are bad, just that they are. I'd love to tap your expertise and hear what conclusions you have drawn based on the responses to this topic.

Thanks!

Rick
+

[ozstar100]

This is a very good report and worthy of everybody's in depth research results.

It is really a bad scene when there are so many variables causing havoc for those who burn and those who buy.

I, like many have read about this problem until I'm bonkers, yet still do not have definitive answers. There 'must' be answers somewhere and I am amazed that manufacturers of media do not come forward with their research, if indeed they do any!

I am not sure how we can answer some of the more technical questions, altho' I am sure there are some techies out there who can give us good answers.

Let's hope we can get good productive responses..

Thanks and good luck

[rixware]

For reference, here is the section in the NIST report regarding adhesive labels. It's found on page 23 of the report.

5.2.7 Application of Adhesive Labels

Adhesive labels should not be applied to optical discs destined for long-term storage (more than five years). The label could delaminate over time and interfere with disc drive operation. The adhesive in some earlier labels has also been known to react with the lacquer surface. Any attempts to peel the label off could cause damage to the lacquer and metal layers in CDs. DVDs are different; peeling a label off a DVD would not have the same adverse affect because the metal layer is not near the surface. Still, removing a label, or any portion thereof, from the surface of a disc can cause an imbalance in the spin of the disc in the disc drive, making the disc unreadable. DVDs are more susceptible to reading problems from minor imbalances than are CDs. To ensure the long-term availability of information on a disc that already has an adhesive label, the information on the disc should be copied to, and stored on, a disc without such a label.

Adhesive labels may be well suited for short-term disc usage (less than five years), and can even add a layer of protection from scratches and other potentially harmful contact. On the other hand, such labels are vulnerable to adverse environmental conditions: they can dry out or absorb moisture, and they can be affected by heat or cold even more than the disc itself. Such conditions may cause the label to delaminate. Disc manufacturers advise against using adhesive labels because they can create unbalanced disc spin, resulting in premature wear of the drive. If a label is used, it should be manufactured for use on CDs or DVDs, and an appropriate disc label applicator tool should be used to affix the label. The label applicator tool should center the label on the disc so as to maintain the disc balance as much as possible.

Frankly, I find some of these conclusions vague and unhelpful based on my own experiences.

For example, archivists may care about delamination of labels, but all of my experiences have been with labels which are freshly attached. Also, since I am using a device which perfectly centers the label, placement is not the issue. And since the errors show up immediately in some cases, it's unlikely that temperature or humidity changes are the real issue.

Further -- and most curiously -- on DVD+R discs which are having read errors, I have taken to removing as much of the label as possible, but found that removing the entire adhesive layer is very difficult. Still, I was surprised to discover that as long as the complete paper layer is removed, the discs will read perfectly. This is the case even with a large amount of the sticky stuff left in place -- and decidedly unbalanced. By all rights, if wobble is the real concern, leaving splotches of unbalanced adhesive should be fatal, but this has not been the case on any of the discs I have reclaimed.

Just some further food for thought.

Rick
+

[Craig Tucker]

I don't think there is a definitive answer as to why sticky labels can cause playback problems, and under what exact conditions these problems can occur. It seems to be a combination of the media used, the type of label applied and how sensitive the DVD player is.

There are several theories as to what causes discs with labels applied to skip and pixelate. I will list the ones I can remember, please add any I have missed.

1. The adhesive on the label corrupts the data layer on the disc. This IMHO is the most far fetched and fantastical reason. There is no way that the labels adhesive could penetrate 0.6mm of polycarbonate and interfere with the data layer. (We are talking about DVDR's here not CDR's, their construction is totally different).

2. The distribution of ink on the label can cause an imbalance. Again I think this is clutching at straws, the mass involved is so miniscule I cannot see how it would affect the balance of the disc.

3. The label causes an imbalance of the disc and causes it to wobble, effecting playback. Possible if applied off centre, but if applied correctly with a stomper, I see no reason why it should be out of balance.

4. The label starts to delaminate and you get air pockets between the label and disc causing an imbalance. This is quite possible, but playback issues are reported with discs with no such air pockets between the disc and label, so this cannot be the only factor.

5. The label absorbs and retains heat from the laser, causing the disc to heat up beyond its normal operating temperature and hence causing playback issues. Possible, as it does seem to be the thicker paper labels which cause the most problems. I have seen very few (if any) complaints about the thin glossy labels causing playback problems.

6. The paper label has a different coefficient of expansion to that of the DVD, so the heating by the laser causes the DVD to "dish" as the Polycarbonate and paper expand at different rates. This would mean that the data layer would be at an angle to the laser and the error would be magnified the closer you got to the edge of the disc.

I think if I had to put my money on any of these reasons, it would either 5 or 6. And to remove sticky labels from DVD's warm soapy water works very well.

I recently retested some labels with some matte silver Ritek G04's.

Burned my disc to full capacity and played it with no label - played perfectly.

Applied a fully printed label centred with an aplicator - immediate playback problems.

Removed label with warm soapy water - perfect playback once again.

I would also add that I have recently purchase an Epson R200 which I have been using with Ritek G04 printable discs. The results are fantastic and I have had zero problems thus far. For those that really want a professional looking end product and for it to still play flawlessly, I would highly reccomend this option.

[ironwood321]

Have you tried using Avery labels. http://www.avery.com/ These are slightly thicker than the standard label last longer i.e. I have no peeling effect and seem to work fine for me.

I have used both the colour inkjet glossy and mono laser labels

I used them with no problem on Nanya and Ritek brand disk and experience so far no problems.

Perhaps on the thinner labels the die from the print somehow leeches through to the disk surface.

This will be more apparent on disk brands which don't have a printed pattern on them and you can see all or part of the silver/gold disk back.

Perhaps the problem related to brand of writer. I noticed that sony writers burn tracks stronger than pioneer drives on the same medium. This is apparent when you continue sessions in different makes of drive.

[ozstar100]

This interesting..

Anyone else know about this.

If the burn is stronger with some burners then maybe the laser in some players is weaker than others.. thus a no read or part read situation!

Mmmm a thought!

Perhaps the problem related to brand of writer. I noticed that sony writers burn tracks stronger than pioneer drives on the same medium. This is apparent when you continue sessions in different makes of drive.

Thanks Craig

[pmaizitis]

I would also be curious about player compatibility. Perhaps adding this to the DVD reviews? All the following comments are related to DVD + and - R. Brand name media like Verbatim, Fuji and Memorex burned on Sony 500U. For starters:
Malata DVD N996 Multi Region Code Free - very sensitive to DVD labels both paper and clear/gloss ... typically halfway through the DVD will pixelate and freeze. (I still like the clear progressive scan picture and PAL converstion of this unit though which is why I am still fighting the label issue)
Panasonic LV-70 - label friendly both paper and gloss.
Phillips DVD580MT01 Vertical DVD - label friendly both paper and gloss.
Magnavox MDV630R DVD Recorder - label friendly, both paper and gloss.
__________________________________________________ ________
Conversation with Avery on paper DVD label problems - they forwarded my complaint to their tech department and I never heard back.

Conversation with CD Stomper on paper DVD label problems - its the media and not their label (give me a break )! NOT! They would not acknowledge that I had stated repeatedly that the DVD+R would play fine before I affixed the label.

Kind of like false advertising and misleading the public!
__________________________________________________ __________

The foil label idea sounds feasible and I think should be reviewed more.

[VideoTechMan]

So here's my question: What method do the commercial DVD's use for their labels? In light of this topic I looked over some of the commercial DVD's I have, and none of them have the paper-type labels on them. You think they may know that paper can be a problem too? Besides, to just write on the DVD-R with just a marker just doesnt have that professional look...it has the more basic kind of label. If thermal printers are a viable option could be worth looking into.

VTM

[SammyTBull]

I've never seen those "metallic" labels anywhere in here, but I've looked for them in a few online stores, and they're only for laser printers - booo!

I've labeled a whole bunch of CDRs and DVDRs with paper labels, though - mostly Neato's glossy ones, since the matte ones look and feel like vomit - and I've never had any problems with any of them. It depends on the player, I suppose, though I played them flawlessly on about 7 different DVD & CD systems. The one player that did choke on some was an Aiwa system, but that one simply had problems with playing many writable discs, so the label issue must have been irrelevant.

[pmaizitis]

I have just tested the Sony DVP-NS575P progressive scan DVD player and it appears to be label friendly - both paper and clear labels. No pixelation or lockup.

However there does not appear to be a region free hack for this unit.

Foil labels are available at Staples on-line. Good color laser printer for these is the Minolta 2300.

[thebishop72]

WOW. I want to thank everyone here for their hard work on this topic. Ive been making backups for a few weeks now and couldnt for the worth of me figure out why some discs froze near the end of the movie. As Im sure we've all experienced, a rather annoying occurrance! Especially with a couch full of friends and family watching! Ive been trashing dvdr's like they're going out of style thinking it was something to do with the burning process and all along, it was the pretty labels Ive been applying!! I mean, they look great, but if this indeed is the problem, then Im never labelling another dvd!

PS Does it even happen with those $30 applicators? Man this sucks! I had some really cool custom labels....ah well. Thanks again everyone!

[lchiu7]

I found this thread very interesting. Before I was aware of the problem I picked up a cheap labelling kit from Kensington for CD's. Using Nero cover designer I was able to make quite nice labels and paste them on my DVD's. Then my kids told me when they were watching some titles picture would freeze, pixellate etc. I had no idea of the problem until I encountered this thread. But after some some experiementation I am no wiser to the answer to the problem because

1. Digital Matrix DVD+R 4X burn fine on my Sony DRU500A but (and I had never checked this before ) not reliably read on my Skyworth 1050P (which is the unit the kids were watching on) so not sure the label made any difference. Those discs with labels work fine on my el cheap Auriga DVD player also but don't read on my Sony DVD ROM drive (with or without labels)

2. Princo 1x DVD-RW burn fine on the Sony (albeit rather slow) and work on all machines with or without labels

3. Ricoh 2.4X DVD+RW read fine on all machines with or without labels

If labels are indeed a problem (weight balance atc.) then I wonder why I can read/play all the rental discs I get which have the security strips on them and a plastic sheet over the label

I am sure the weight of label makes a difference but there seem to be other factors also

I just ordered a 100 Ritek DVD-R 4X printable and will probably get a R200 to be safe though

[DTSL06]

Apply labels this way and see if u have probms. 1st u'll need a cd/dvd capable printer (I use a Epson 900). Burn disk with ur flavor of choice. Apply label...THEN print. This elimates bubbles and the hassle of trying to apply ink loaded labels. I been doing this and have no probm's. Its worth a try if u like paper labels. I jsut dont like the printable disks since they are easily smeared. I had some return cause of smearing. Over coat was an added step I had to use with the printable disks. Just wasnt worth it after doing ~100+ that way. Went back to using paper labels (Neato's work the best for me).

[pmaizitis]

I would be curious which players are not having problems.

We have several of the new players and neither paper nor clear labels are a problem.

No problems playing labels printed with Epson ink jet or Minolta color laser.

The newer machines that we tested appear to be more robust ad mature in their designs and stable handling of all types of DVDs as well as VCDs and SVCDs WITH LABELS.

Someone please acknowledge. As stated before it might be a good idea to start including label capability on new players tested and logged on this site.

Suggest that before you go out and buy a CD/DVD printer you check on a new DVD player like Panasonic, Sony or Philips, as listed in my prior post. Those I listed are label friendly.

[dxj40c]

I label everything, CD and DVD, and have never had problems. Pixelation at the edge of the disk is most likely not the label. I call the area 1/4" from the edge 'no man's land' and avoid it. If you hold most disks just right you can see the edge area is sometimes kind of funky looking (uneven coating, scratches, etc). This is why the disks pixelate. I limit my burn files to 4.272GB and have had no problems.

[GMaq]

I like many of you was also bummed to discover this problem, Now the camp that believes that disc balance is the problem will flame me for this but I have started labeling my discs with "Brother P-Touch" tape labels, I use clear label tape, make the labels as small as possible with a small font and try to mount the label toward the centre of the disc. So far no playback problems on both my home players which didn't like the sticky labels at all. if you can't live with your handwriting with a Sharpie, this may work for you. Just throwin' it out there.

[Craig Tucker]

I label everything, CD and DVD, and have never had problems. Pixelation at the edge of the disk is most likely not the label. I call the area 1/4" from the edge 'no man's land' and avoid it. If you hold most disks just right you can see the edge area is sometimes kind of funky looking (uneven coating, scratches, etc). This is why the disks pixelate. I limit my burn files to 4.272GB and have had no problems.

I fill my printable riteks right to the brim (4.7GB) and print on them with an Epson R200, not had one fail yet.

[winifreid]

I have a Magnavox MDV455. I had a disk that was skipping and freezing repeatedly at almost anyplace on the disk. It had a paper label covered in ink. I then removed the label with water and soap and no more problems. Most of my disks don't have this problem even thought they have labels. This disk was burned with high compression. I haven't had the burner very long, so maybe my other disks will develope problems as well. If I were to guess, I would say that heat buildup is the problem. An interesting test would be to use a store bought disk and put a label on it and see if it developes problems.

[pbanders]

I have no need for fancy labels for my DVD/CD's. I use Ritek's for my DVD's, and most of my CD's are TDK's that I've bought for as little as $0.06 each. For rewriteable media, I use a Brother TZ label maker, which uses extremely thin plastic labels that weigh almost nothing. I have never had the slightest problem with playback in dozens of players and across wide temperature ranges (I live in Phoenix). Labels stay on until I peel them off. For non-rewritable media, I use a Sharpie. Again, never the slightest problem. I've burned over a thousand CD's and hundreds of DVD's and lableled them this way. YMMV.

[PJGS]

A friend of mine has several DVD-R's damaged by the labels.
He was the only one with playback problems, and it took us a while to realize taht the labels were the big problem!.

[Madz]

I've had label trouble using Neato matte's w/ some types of media. Exactly how do you remove them w/ warm soap & water? Wet the label or dunk the whole disk in (kind've like recovering uncancelled stamps from envelopes)? Thought I also saw mention of using "Goo Gone" to remove the labels cleanly w/o residue. Would that product do any damage to the disk surface?

[junkmalle]

I used Goo Gone on about a dozen DVDs with paper labels (Neato). I was having problems playing them on my DVD player -- after removing the labels every one played perfectly.

As far as I can tell Goo Gone doesn't harm the disks. Squirt some on and spread it around the full surface of the label. Let it sit for 10 minutes or so. The label will then lift off pretty easily. You'll probably have to rub a little left over glue off with a paper towel and some more Goo Gone. Finally I rinse the disk in warm water and blot dry.

[rixware]

I soak them in soapy water for a while (no specific length of time), then scrape off as much as I can with my fingernail. That seems to be enough. There's no need to get all the glue off, just all of the paper. You'd think this would be a clue as to what's going on, but it's hard to say...

+

[Captain315]

I'm relatively new at this but I agree that this is a problem that needs to be solved. Just to add my two-cents worth, I've burned 163 DVD+R discs and (so far) have had no problems. They work on six different players scattered across the family.

I use the SureThing labeler and their brilliant matte, full-face labels for all my discs. I print them on a Canon S900 ink jet printer. This pretty well puts me in the typical usage category.

I've been using Memorex, Verbatim, Fuji and am presently waiting for an order of Ritek discs to arrive. My burner is a Plextor 708A and my program of choice is Shrink used with Nero Ultra.

I know this doesn't help anyone but I just wanted to add my experience.

[rixware]

Like you, Captain315, I went a long time (almost a year and several hundred discs) before having any problems. But then they came up one after the other. It rapidly became a very big nightmare.

Part of the equation is that the adhesive on the labels dries over time. Discs that played perfectly last October had started pixellating and freezing toward the end of the program by January. By March the problems were occurring in the middle of the program. At first I thought that all the discs were just slowly going bad and started to freak out.

The good news is that as soon as I removed the label, they played perfectly again.

(It should be noted that sometimes problems come up immediately after the label is attached.)

Keep these things in mind before investing too much time and energy (and $) into sticky labels. (I've sworn them off altogether and now print directly on Ritek printable discs with the Epson R200.)

Peace.
+

[Madz]

Thought of the printable idea, but buying a rather expensive printer and special media wasn't too appealing to me. Went back to the ol' Sharpie pen.

[andyp1]

I don't think I could classify the r200 as a rather expensive printer and printable media are not much different in price to non-printable are they.

[sray2k]

Well, Well, well...

I must say, It must be How you handle the disc. I ALWAYS label my dvd-r's and NO problems !!
So far ALL the dvd players in my family...we had NO problems at all !!!

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents !!

Scott

[rixware]

...a rather expensive printer and special media...

Epson R200: $99 at CompUSA (less online).
Ritek printable DVD-R: $0.74 each (qty 100) at SuperMediaStore.com.

+

[Craig Tucker]

Well, Well, well...

I must say, It must be How you handle the disc. I ALWAYS label my dvd-r's and NO problems !!
So far ALL the dvd players in my family...we had NO problems at all !!!

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents !!

Scott

Yea ok, its how we handle the discs