DV Compression playback

[vhelp]

ok, i finaly D/L'd clips and played with them.

It all basically boils down to "de-Interlacing"

1, I noticed that fir "RA" clip (your game copy) is 90 fps, and it's heavily
interlaced. And, you captured it at 29.971 fps I'm no expert in frame-rate
conversions, but 90fps @ 29.971 fps captured is kind of hard to convert, if
it'll go cleanly at all.
However, a vdub "de-Interlace" helped some.
I think that maybe, for TV games w/ 90 fps, you should try an analog
capture instead, and change to 90 fps (lower your resolution though)
if your PC is fast enough for the job. Or, you could lower the fps in your
capture card.

DV frame rate is set to 29.970 so you can't fiddle w/ frame rates their, but
w/ an analog capture card, you can.

2, your 2nd clip wasn't so bad. That faired better with the same
vdub "de-Interlace", and provided a bit better quality. So, use this
filter for your Home-Footage, and you'll be happy
Your Game stuff is another story.

So, in short, I suspect, for your "RA" clip, the reason why you were seeing
all those blocks after encoding is because of all those interlace lines at
90 fps.

You will have to experiment w/ those TV game captures's frame rate
though. Someone here may have already ben their, where you are, and
could offer some assistance for you.

Well, I'm bushed, and I'm getting ready for bed.

Good luck.
-vhelp

[sectionthirty1]

Ok, both of those 2 clips were recorded from my camera...when i said i captured the first clip, i didn't mean that i used a capture card..i meant i recorded it with the svideo in i have in my camcorder...just to prove to u that both pieces of footage had the same issues...And if u goto one of my previous posts i noted that I had tried exporting it using different compressions/techniques..., what i failed to meniton was that I also tried serveral types of deinterlacing...Virtualdubs filter seems to do a great job..but i still see some quality loss that isn't acceptable to me .

[Dodzzz]

Ah you're using newer version of Windows Media Player, it's slightly different from what I use (Windows Media Player 6)

here's how:

Windows Media Player 7 or 8

- Open a DV movie to play.
- Select "Options" from the Tools menu (you will have to make the menu visible to do this).
- Click on the "Performance" tab.
- Click on the "Advanced" button under the Video acceleration section
- Set the Digital Video size to Large.
- Click "OK"
- Click "OK"
- Close Windows Media Player and re-open the DV movie. You can now play this at full resolution. (You may have to resize the window larger to see the video frame at full size).


Windows Media Player 6

- Open a DV movie to play.
- Make sure the movie is stopped (not just paused).
- Right-click over the main window and select "Properties" from the popup menu.
- Click the "Advanced" tab.
- Select the "DV Video Decoder" from the list.
- Click the "Properties" button.
- Select "Full" as the decoding resolution
- Set the "Save As Default" checkbox.
- Click OK to close the dialog box.
- Click "Close"
- Close Windows Media Player and re-open the DV movie. You can now play this at full resolution.

source:
http://www.puremotion.com/editstudio/manual/troubleshooting/captureddvmoviesplaybackathalfsize.htm

I also installed the MainConcept DV codec and weird .. whenever I open your avi, it still uses Microsoft's DV codec! but when I open another DV avi it uses the mainconcept codec

EDIT:

i noted that I had tried exporting it using different compressions/techniques..., what i failed to meniton was that I also tried serveral types of deinterlacing...Virtualdubs filter seems to do a great job..but i still see some quality loss that isn't acceptable to me

I recommend you to export your DV avi's to either DVD or SVCD format, since both uses MPEG2 algorithm and it supports interlaced source, so you don't have to deinterlace your videos! deinterlacing will get rid the fluid motion of your captured videos, and that's bad unless you're creating a homemade film or music video clips or something like that.
I also recommend using TMPGEnc's project wizard for that DVD/SVCD encoding..

hope this helps!

[donpedro]

sectionthirty1, What are you trying to accomplish ? Your video is just fine. You can see it as you said when you import back to tape. Whetever you are trying to do, your final result will be fine. Only reason to worry is if you final video will be used on computer only, which I don't believe is your goal. So finish whole process and tell me if you can see it fine on TV. If yes.... what do you need more ???

[sectionthirty1]

@Dodzzz
Well I changed the video media player option like u said, and you were right. The Video now plays full screen w/o any pixelation problems, just with interlacing problems which I was unable to see prior to that because windows media player made the video so bad by enlarging the pixels to fit to my resolution. So, thanks to you guys I now know what my options are. Either make it into an mpeg2 or divx at the cost of deinterlacing it and loosing some quality.

@donpedro
I'm sorry if you couldn't gather what I was trying to accomplish, but I would like to get the video to play on my computer at the quality it really is and full screen at that . I suppose I'll be backing up home videos on CD until I get myself a DVD+RW, I'm waiting til they get a 12X . My problem is solved, I'll probably just convert them to mpeg2 and burn them on CD. Thanks to all u guys...

BTW, I found out that virtualdubs deinterlace filter is like 10X better than the one that premiere uses, and the one that divx 5.02 comes with...I was shocked at how much better it is and considering that virtualdub is free...Avery Lee, must be a hell of programmer.

One more thing...those options on windows media player 8 should be changed...WTF is m$ thinking....who wants to see DV compression at half the resolution...eeesh...

Thanks,
D

[vhelp]

...Avery Lee, must be a hell of programmer.

He must be, cause vdub is in C. Lots of header/library files etc.
But, most of those header files are standard, just those that pertain to
AVI and/or MPEG and a few other things, are the actual complicated ones.

I'm not a C programmer, but have dabbled w/ it when I needed to or when
I just want to see how some things are put together, and I have ported
very few pieces into Delphi. yes, I'm a Delphi programmer. (but not professional)

-vhelp

[donpedro]

If your CD's will be played on PC only than you definitly need to de-interlace. If result will be CD that is VCD or SVCD and will be played on TV than I guess you will be just fine with interlaced result. Good luck

[Dodzzz]

sectionthirty1, if your goal is just to view your captured videos on a computer just like you'd see it on a regular TV, I have a tip for you:

1. in the TMPGEnc -> Setting -> Advanced -> Deinterlace, select method: Even-Odd field (field, adaptation) press OK.
2. then in the top area of the advanced tab, select Bottom field first (field B) for the Field order and 1:1 (VGA) for the Source aspect ratio.
3. move onto Video tab, you will see the Frame rate is now doubled from 29.97 to 59.94 now to encode a mpeg2 with such high frame rate, you must select Main Profile & High Level (MP@HL) for the Profile & Level pulldown menu
4. still in the video tab, change the Encode mode to Non-interlace and the Aspect ratio to 4:3 Display
5. leave the other option at default, and make sure in the system tab you select MPEG-2 Program (VBR).

Start encode, open and see!

The Even-Odd field (field, adaptation) method is actually separates odd and even lines within a single frame into 2 frames (combined with adaptation deinterlacing technique, thus doubling the original frame rate of interlaced videos and resulting in a fluid motion when played back on a monitor.

[sectionthirty1]

I was excited to try these new settings...however, under the profile and Level pulldown menu...i only have [main profile and main level] and [Main profile and low level], I don't get a [Main profile and High level] which u stated to use. And i'm getting this error now "mpeg2 level can not deal with more than 30fps."...

[Dodzzz]

hmm.. weird, try reseting the TMPGEnc (make New Project from File menu)

also don't forget to change the system to MPEG-2 Program VBR, then select a decent bitrate, selecting Constant Quality of 80, maximum = 8000 minimum = 1200 or above is recomended.

Try again and let me know!

EDIT: In the "Quantize matrix" tab, you must tick the "Output YUV data basic as... " for DV sources to retain the original contrast level.

EDIT: I forgot this minor adjustment, in the advanced tab -> Video arange method -> choose Full Screen

[sectionthirty1]

I did a reset and applied the same options..and still nothing....look
BTW, i do have the latest version..i just checked..
*EDIT* do u happen to use any messenger service

[Dodzzz]

Oooh.. you're using TMPGEnc (not plus)

Try downloading the trial version of the plus:
http://www.tmpgenc.net/files/TMPGEnc-2.510.49.157-Plus-EN.exe

have you bought TMPGEnc btw? because I'm not sure if the trial version allows you to encode using MP@HL

[sectionthirty1]

No i haven't purchased it...standby for the trial results

[Dodzzz]

Ok, and I think the limitation is only a 14 days expiration

quote from the TMPGEnc website:

Limitation: This version can be freely used for 14 days. After this period, you can unlock TMPGEnc Plus by entering a valid serial number.

[sectionthirty1]

eessh...I still see big quality loss at 8000 CBR...even more than using virtualdubs plain deinterlace filter which wasn't that bad at all...I estimate only like a 15-20% quality loss...well, i'm out of ideas..
this is the video that i converted with your settings so u could see how it came out...
ursettings

BTW, I'm going to bed...its really late here....gotta get a few hours of sleep ...talk to ya tomorrow..thanks for the help..

[Dodzzz]

Sorry I forgot one thing! Use 720 x 240 instead of 720 x 480 (480 is completely useless and twice more bitrate consuming) plus use a higher bitrate! your clip was too shaky and lots of trees, it might be better using 15000 kbps.

but honestly, you can't get interlaced videos to be displayed on a monitor as perfect as you'd see it on a TV.. the 720 x 240 method above was my best method so far.. (to simulate TV displays on a monitor)

[sectionthirty1]

I'm sorry to tell u this, but i'm still not seeing any improvement...and now that the resolution is 720x240 it just made the proportions way off.. I tried super high CBR and even tried variations of VBR...still looks like crappy...

[vhelp]

Evening everyone.

Sectionthirty1,
Some more questions..
* umm, 56K;DLS or Cable ?? own server ?? (just curious)
* can you upload a larger clip of your home-made (say, 15megs or something) as you
.. last test clip was too short to play with he, he.. I'll D/L it while doing other
.. things, so I don't mind the size so much, like that same footage (but longer)
.. "testmpeg2.mpeg"
* what TVs are you planning on watchign these from ?? ie, 27", 60", widescreen ""
.. flatscreen etc.
* and, how does your samples compare with quality, against those TVs ??
* what's your DV cam make/model/brand ??

Anyways..
I was surprised to see your clip come out that way though, and you used a very
high bitrate on it too. But, I didn't get the chance to see your steps, start
to finish on this particular clip. But, it was quite possible that the quality
hit was due to to high a frame rate ie, 59.94 fps which IS on the steep side,
unless you did something wrong, or misunderstood Dodzzz or somethingelse or
a combination of all the above. Then again, it could just be the SCENE you shot
footage on, and your "camera holding" method etc.

FROM BitRate Viewer v1.5.043: "testmpeg2.mpeg"
--------------------------------------------------------
Num. of picture read: 182
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@HL CBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 59.94
Nom. bitrate: 8000000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 80
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

Dodzzz,
I'm not sure why you HAVE choosen MP@HL for ?? what's the gain ??
And, personally, I don't know why Hori had taken all those Profiles out
in the first place, and now only include them (or partially[list below]) in
the PRO version of TMPG. I don't know why (clearly yet) one would have a
need to use those other than MP@ML to begin with, but.. ie from TMPGEnc v12A

PROFILE. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. DESCRIPTION ..
----------------------------------------------
MP@LL .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 
MP@ML .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. (Default) and only one that works w/ all MPEGs by TMPG.
MP@HL .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 
High-1440 Level . .. .. .. .. 
Hi Level (HP@HL). .. .. .. .. 
4:2:2 Main Level (422P@ML) ..

Just curious and all.

Have a good evening.
-vhelp

[vhelp]

delete.. (double post done manually)

[sectionthirty1]

@vhelp
answers to your questions...
1. My b/w is 360KB/s down and 45KB/s up...KB not kb...
2. Maybe later, I'll have to wait til tomorrow morning and get some better footage, the current footage i have is crap...
3. i've been trying them on 27" tvs alike. TV size is irrelevant because my goal is just to get my footage as lossless as possible yet be able to view it fine on my computer...Seems like deinterlacing always takes around 10-20% of the quality.
4. When I have the dv footage on my computer and deniterlace it with virtualdub using a loseless compression...I loose approximately 10-20% quality.
5. I have a Sony DCR-TRV340 digital 8 camcorder...

I followed Dodzzz setting to the nose yet I still can't get a descent looking video...

[Dodzzz]

I'm not sure why you HAVE choosen MP@HL for ?? what's the gain ??

MP@HL is required for encoding above 30 fps

@sectionthirty1
what do you mean as lossless as possible? if you don't want any quality loss, then there's no need to deinterlace or convert it to anything, it's already lossless.
But if you want to edit anything then what you need is the best DV decoder to prevent any decoding quality loss while editing as low as possible (you might want to start a new thread about this ) then when you're done, save it in avi format using HuffYUV lossless compression

Using steps above, the quality loss part is only at where you open (decode) the original file in a video editing application. (although that loss is at very minimum and you won't notice it)

The only noticeable quality loss is when you playback the avi on your monitor, the monitor display is progressive, while your source is interlaced. kinda screwy you know

more about interlace thing on this page: http://www.100fps.com/