Need Help with Cinema Craft Encoder

[poppy56]

I'm trying to use Cinema Craft Encoder SP to convert an .avi file. When it converts I get 3 additional files with .mpa, .mpv and .vaf extension. What do I do with these files? I want to convert the avi file to mpeg1. Can someone help me?

Thanks

[agzz]

the .mpa should be audio
.mpv is video
and the vaf is a video information file that CCE uses to tell where to put bites ect for the encoding

you should mux the .mpa and .mpv together and thats it. thats your .mpg.

but really, you should encode the audio with something else than CCE.

the .vaf you dont need no more.

[banjazzer]

First off, if you want to convert to mpeg1 you would be better off usingTMPG.

And since you have .mpa, .mpv and .vaf files, it suggests you are not actually creating an mpeg1 file. These are relevant to variable bitrate mpeg2 encoding.

[adam]

First off, if you want to convert to mpeg1 you would be better off usingTMPG.

And since you have .mpa, .mpv and .vaf files, it suggests you are not actually creating an mpeg1 file. These are relevant to variable bitrate mpeg2 encoding.

MPV means mpeg elementary stream. It can refer to mpeg1 or mpeg2 and by default, CCE uses them interchangeably.

There would not really be any benefit to creating a .vaf file if you were just encoding in CBR, but nonetheless, I believe CCE also creates this by default. In any case you can still create the .VAF file even when encoding in mpeg1 CBR.

So I don't see any indication that he is doing anything wrong. Its true that CCE is probably not the highest quality mpeg1 encoder, though I think the latest version may have some improvements, but its certainly an acceptable choice.

Poppy, get TMPGenc or BBmpeg and multiplex your mpv and mpa together. Just follow one of the multiplexing guides on this site.

[Supremus]

Cinema Craft is very poor for MPEG1. I suggest you use TMPGenc or Canopus ProCoder. They will both take an AVI file and convert to a high quality MPEG1 file, instead of seperate audio and video like CCE does. TMPGenc is free, and very, very good.

[kitty]

If you paid all that money ($2000) to encode MPEG1 . . .

[adam]

Supremus, CCE will encode to an mpg program stream as well, you just have to set it to PS instead of ES. Both TMPGenc and CCE let you do this.

[Supremus]

Supremus, CCE will encode to an mpg program stream as well, you just have to set it to PS instead of ES. Both TMPGenc and CCE let you do this.

OK, I haven't tried CCE myself, I was just commenting on the fact that the original poster got separate audio and video files from CCE. This doesn't change the fact that CCE is a hugely expensive mediocre MPEG1 encoder, particularly when the excellent, and much more user friendly TMPGenc is free.

[adam]

Yes I agree, but its price has nothing to do with its mpeg1 encoding ability. Cinema Craft has been very honest in stating that their full efforts have gone toward mpeg2 quality/support, and in this area many would agree that it is worth every penny.

I was just making a clarification, CCE can encode to either an elementary stream or a program stream. I was not not commenting on its mpeg1 quality at all, I already did that. TMPGenc wins hands down.

[banjazzer]

MPV means mpeg elementary stream. It can refer to mpeg1 or mpeg2 and by default, CCE uses them interchangeably.

There would not really be any benefit to creating a .vaf file if you were just encoding in CBR, but nonetheless, I believe CCE also creates this by default.

I know what mpv means. The fact that he has a .vaf file suggests he is encoding to mpeg2, as none of the options to create mpeg1 in CCE are variable bitrate, and so no .vaf file is created! This may be different in very old versions of CCE - but I would think it unlikely.

In any case you can still create the .VAF file even when encoding in mpeg1 CBR.

How exactly? in 2.6x I can get .mpg, .mpa and .mpv - but not .vaf. Which is not surprising, since it is meaningless with constant bitrate encoding.

[adam]

Banjazzer I suggest you go back and look at the settings in CCE.

The default outputs for ES video streams are MPV. This is regardless of whether you are encoding in mpeg1 or mpeg2.

Regardless of whether you are encoding in mpeg1 or mpeg2, CBR or VBR, you can still create the .vaf file. If you look in the "Output files" options on the main settings tab there is a box for "Video information file:" If you check this it will create the .vaf, don't blame me if you didn't see it. Remember CCE is not a VCD or SVCD encoder, it is an mpeg encoder. Both the mpeg1 and mpeg2 standards support VBR including multipass vbr. Many people do the first pass in CBR and then use the .vaf file to do subsequent passes, yes even with mpeg1. Additionally, you cannot use the advanced options in CCE unless you first create the .vaf file. Tweaking the bitrate at the GOP level can squeeze some more quality out of your encodes while still maintaing CBR conformity, and thus VCD compliance. One of CCE's greatest assets is its bitrate and Quantization analyzer, both of which are not possible without the .vaf. The .vaf file is most ceratinly not something exclusive to mpeg2 or even VBR encoding.

All this is besides the point because I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

BY DEFAULT CCE has the vaf creation box checked and ES checked. If you simply load a source, check mpeg1 and set your bitrate to 1150kbits you will get an MPV, an MPA, and a .VAF file. Try it! There is absolutely no indication that Poppy did anything but use the default settings when creating his vcd compliant mpeg1 file.

[banjazzer]

Regardless of whether you are encoding in mpeg1 or mpeg2, CBR or VBR, you can still create the .vaf file. If you look in the "Output files" options on the main settings tab there is a box for "Video information file:" If you check this it will create the .vaf, don't blame me if you didn't see it.

Not in version 2.6x you can't. There is no way to create a .vaf file with mpeg1, either with program stream or elementary stream. Nor is there any option to create other than CBR mpeg1. And there is certainly no option in the output settings, and certainly no .vaf file is created by default. In fact, all reference to the .vaf file is grayed out when using any mpeg1 option. Don't blame me if you are using an out-of-date version.

If anyone using CCE 2.6x can create a .vaf file with mpeg1 please show me how, and I will stand corrected. 8)

There is absolutely no indication that Poppy did anything but use the default settings when creating his vcd compliant mpeg1 file.

It really depends on which version he was using. Perhaps Poppy can tell us??

[poppy56]

I'm using CCE v.2.66. I tried using TMPGEnc to encode to mpeg1 but it always shut down because of an error. It works sometimes and sometimes it don't. I've tried all the suggestions and problems section of TMPGEnc, but nothing works.

[banjazzer]

Can you tell us exactly what you do when you try to encode your avi?

I wonder if your OS is too *advanced*.

[adam]

Not in version 2.6x you can't. There is no way to create a .vaf file with mpeg1, either with program stream or elementary stream. Nor is there any option to create other than CBR mpeg1. And there is certainly no option in the output settings, and certainly no .vaf file is created by default. In fact, all reference to the .vaf file is grayed out when using any mpeg1 option. Don't blame me if you are using an out-of-date version.

Well I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't already verified it for myself. Perhaps you only meant to refer to 2.64 and higher when you said 2.6x, but with 2.62 it is definitely as I described. As for later versions? I don't know and I don't care and its really besides the point. I was attempting to correct an incorrect generalization. The issue isn't that some versiosn of CCE don't create a vaf with mpeg1, its that not all of them are like this. Following your advice he would have assumed his entire encode was incorrect and re-encode again, presumably with the same settings only to get the same output and be no better off than where he started, and all this would have taken hours instead of just the 5 mins it takes to multiplex.

Am I being nitpicky? Perhaps, but the typical response to my gripe probably would have just been, "ok my bad" or nothing at all.

If anyone using CCE 2.6x can create a .vaf file with mpeg1 please show me how, and I will stand corrected. 8)

First off, I really hope you are not using a trial version or the lite version since these have many of the normal features locked. Otherwise juse use the default settings in 2.62 and there you go.

[adam]

Poppy I assume this is a divx avi?

First off can you play the avi ok, including audio and video?
Did you first decompress the audio to wav in vdub before encoding?
Whenever you run into problems with TMPGenc crashing, go to option/environmental setting/VFAPI Plugin and raise the priority of the direct show filter until it is the highest in the list.

Most importantly what is the error you get?

[kenmo]

>you should mux the .mpa and .mpv together and thats it. thats >your .mpg.

>but really, you should encode the audio with something else than CCE.

>the .vaf you dont need no more.

The above comments perplex me but I really can not comment on this as I've only ever used the demo of CCE...but how can the audio from CCE be that bad as the program costs two thousand. The same cost as a good used car ?

And what do you recommend for audio ?

Cheers

Kenmo

[adam]

There are two basic streams which make up an mpg program stream, audio and video. If you take an mpg and demultiplex it, you get the two streams, in this case an mpa (audio) and an mpv (video.) Likewise, if you take the two streams and multiplex them together then you will have a program stream (mpg.) You can multiplex with bbmpeg, TMPGenc, and I-Author to name a few, just follow the guides on this site.

For some reason CCE has never really got its act together in the audio department. It has resulted in some notable bugs, mainly that many AMD systems simply cannot encode audio in CCE. My guess is that CCE's audio quality is decent, but I wouldn't know because I've never used anything other than AMD chipsets so I can't use CCE for audio. In any case, toolame is an incredibly exceptional free mpeg audio encoder, and chances are it actually is higher quality than CCE. It just makes things much simpler and probably higher quality to use toolame instead.

The vaf file is just a text file. Its most important function is for use with multipass encoding. Each time CCE encodes an additional pass it updates this file, gathering more information about your source so that it can better allocate bitrate. Additionally, you need this information in order to use the advanced settings in CCE such as manual bitrate tweaking and bitrate and Quantization analysis. Once you are done encoding you don't need the .vaf file anymore and can safely delete it. If the original poster is making a VCD using 1-pass CBR then there is no reason to keep the .vaf file, though that doesn't prohibit CCE from creating it in the first place.

[BJ_M]

There are two basic streams which make up an mpg program stream, audio and video. If you take an mpg and demultiplex it, you get the two streams, in this case an mpa (audio) and an mpv (video.) Likewise, if you take the two streams and multiplex them together then you will have a program stream (mpg.) You can multiplex with bbmpeg, TMPGenc, and I-Author to name a few, just follow the guides on this site.

For some reason CCE has never really got its act together in the audio department. It has resulted in some notable bugs, mainly that many AMD systems simply cannot encode audio in CCE. My guess is that CCE's audio quality is decent, but I wouldn't know because I've never used anything other than AMD chipsets so I can't use CCE for audio. In any case, toolame is an incredibly exceptional free mpeg audio encoder, and chances are it actually is higher quality than CCE. It just makes things much simpler and probably higher quality to use toolame instead.

The vaf file is just a text file. Its most important function is for use with multipass encoding. Each time CCE encodes an additional pass it updates this file, gathering more information about your source so that it can better allocate bitrate. Additionally, you need this information in order to use the advanced settings in CCE such as manual bitrate tweaking and bitrate and Quantization analysis. Once you are done encoding you don't need the .vaf file anymore and can safely delete it. If the original poster is making a VCD using 1-pass CBR then there is no reason to keep the .vaf file, though that doesn't prohibit CCE from creating it in the first place.

adam's right - the audio in CCE and even in other high end encoders is not that great for the simple reason that in "pro/studio" applications you wouldnt use the mpeg encoder to make the final audio track anyway .. the only reason i would use the built in audio encoder is to a make a temp sync track along with the film to help check sync with the "real" audio tracks. I sometimes even encode smpte time code along with a clip in the audio encoder .. nothing need to be to good for that .. final output is ussualy an ac3 stream in either a transport or program stream.

most final output doesnt need mpeg audio anyway ... except for vcd/svcd which (at one time) not on the minds of the companies developing these encoders (i doubt that CCE thinks that people would buy its product to encode VCD or SVCD)

[banjazzer]

Well I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't already verified it for myself. Perhaps you only meant to refer to 2.64 and higher when you said 2.6x, but with 2.62 it is definitely as I described.

I was referring to 2.64 and on. I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't already verified it for myself, either! IIRC you were recentlyusing 2.5.

As for later versions? I don't know and I don't care and its really besides the point.

It is hardly beside the point if the original poster was using a version of CCE that does not create a .vaf file with mpeg1 - which was the point of my original post.

I was attempting to correct an incorrect generalization. The issue isn't that some versiosn of CCE don't create a vaf with mpeg1, its that not all of them are like this. Following your advice he would have assumed his entire encode was incorrect and re-encode again,

Not at all. Following my advice he would have checked he was actually selecting mpeg1 to encode. And following the other advice given by agzz he would have muxed the .mpv and .mpa to see whether he got his required mpeg1. As you alluded to, you were being nitpicky.

and all this would have taken hours instead of just the 5 mins it takes to multiplex.

I never suggested encoding again, or not trying to mux his audio and video. I suggested he may not have been encoding to mpeg1, which seemed the likeliest explanation from my experience with the versions of CCE I have used.

First off, I really hope you are not using a trial version or the lite version since these have many of the normal features locked.

My version is SP, fully functional. Do you suppose Poppy has the full commercial package to encode to mpeg1 because TMPG won't work?

[poppy56]

Yes, I have the full comercial package. My OS is Windows XP Pro. The file I'm trying to code is in avi format. I did not decompress the audio in virtualdub before encoding. My priority is raised to 3 in Options/Environmental setting/VFAPI Plugin. I get the message, "TMPGEnc has to shutdown."

[banjazzer]

I meant the full commercial package of CCE!

Did you try multiplexing the .mpa, and .mpv as agzz suggested in the second post in this thread?

You said you were using CCE v.2.66. I don't have 2.66 installed right now, but with CCE v.2.64 you cannot get a .vaf file whilst encoding to mpeg1. Well, I can't. adam might be able to. 8)

I think it unlikely they dropped the ability to create .vaf files for just one single version of CCE. I would like to get this settled, then adam might stop trying to pick fault with everything I say. Although I doubt it. 8)

[adam]

Yes, I have the full comercial package. My OS is Windows XP Pro. The file I'm trying to code is in avi format. I did not decompress the audio in virtualdub before encoding. My priority is raised to 3 in Options/Environmental setting/VFAPI Plugin. I get the message, "TMPGEnc has to shutdown."

Poppy, you need to give us more information. Like I said before, exactly what kind of file is this? Is this a divx? Did you download it or capture it yourself.? If your not sure what codec it uses then load it in virtual dub (in tools section) and hit file/file information. Can you play it in media player? Does TMPGenc only shutdown on this file or all avis?

When converting downloaded divx you should always decompress the audio first before encoding to mpg. Many divx use ac3 audio which TMPGenc will choke on. Even those that just use mp3 will often give TMPGenc problems. I don't really think this is what's happening since I've never seen the "TMPGenc must shutdown" error but still its worth a try. Actually, I'd just try encoding the video alone for now so that you can pinpoint the source of the problem. On the main window in TMPGenc on the bottom right select "Video Only" and then encode.

If you've got any weird codecs installed, namely the nimo codec pack, then unistall them. Conflicting codecs can cause all kinds of weird problems.

[adam]

And since you have .mpa, .mpv and .vaf files, it suggests you are not actually creating an mpeg1 file. These are relevant to variable bitrate mpeg2 encoding.

It really depends on which version he was using.

Exactly! Do you not understand what a generalization is?

[banjazzer]

Exactly! Do you not understand what a generalization is?

Well, yes I do, actually, but thank you for your concern. You were too busy nitpicking to realise that from my own experience of a recent version of CCE I had used, my reply to the initial post was very sensible, and what anyone using the same version might reasonably have concluded. Using CCE v.2.64 it is not possible to create a .vaf file when encoding to mpeg1, so it logically suggested the original poster may not have been creating mpeg1, which was his aim. This assumption, from personal experience, is no better or worse than yours that CCE can always create a .vaf with mpeg1, and will do so by default. As it is, the original poster is using a slightly later version to both of us, which I do not currently have installed, so we may never get to the bottom of this, except to say you are no more right than I am. And you have mis-represented the general tenor of my early posts, which anyone can easily determine by reading back through this thread

Unfortunately, you became consumed with trying to prove me wrong on a matter of fact, rather than trying to help the original poster.

By the way, since you are into nitpicking, I notice you never followed up when you were wrong about Virtualdub being able to change an .avi's framerate whilst using Direct stream copy. :P

A little humility is a wonderful thing. As is the ability to admit when you are wrong.

By the way, if anyone can create a .vaf whilst encoding mpeg1 with CCE v.2.64 then I will be the first to hold my hands up and accept that I was mistaken. 8)

[banjazzer]

PS it must be time again for a CQ vs. x-pass VBR thread.

[adam]

A little humility is a wonderful thing. As is the ability to admit when you are wrong.

What an incredibly ironic thing to say.

Regarding vdub, though that is so incredibly irrellavent, I have a very vague memory of that thread. I think it was from your post that I first learned you can change the fps of an avi without having "full processing mode on." If I didn't respond I can assure you its because I lost track of the thread, don't read into things so much. Was I wrong about that? Absolutely. Does that have anything to do with this thread? No.

[banjazzer]

If I didn't respond I can assure you its because I lost track of the thread, don't read into things so much. Was I wrong about that? Absolutely. Does that have anything to do with this thread? No.

Well, I think it has got something to do with this thead, or rather your attitude to threads that we share. You were extremely quick to point out, wrongly, that I was *incorrect*, but tardy in admitting it was actually you who was incorrect.

If I were categorically proved wrong about a matter of fact, particularly if had mistakenly accused someone else of being mistaken, then I would make a point of admitting to my mistake.

Only you know your motives and intentions, but from my side you seem very quick to find fault in me, and slow to find fault in yourself. As to finding anything of value in my posts, well this obviously has not happened yet. :P

[BJ_M]

i think poppy56 has left the building long ago ...

[banjazzer]

That's OK. We are still here.