VCD - What's the point ?

[Biz]

Having recently bought a VCD compatible DVD player I thought I'd try one out for the first time. I borrowed a VCD copy of Gladiator which a friend had bought last year. I was not expecting great quality, but my first reaction is that VCD just isn't worth investing time and money in. The image and colour quality was very disappointing and the sound never seemed to be in synch. If DVD recorders become really affordable, what will be the point in having VCD ?

[geek rock]

If DVD recorders become really affordable, what will be the point in having VCD ?

once they're as cheap as CD burners, then no, there won't be a point in VCD's.

people are mainly using them now to back up/archive things that they don't want to wear out on VHS.

-Mark

[hwoodwar]

I'm sure others will voice opposing viewpoints, but I agree (that the quality isn't that great with VCDs.) I too have seen commercial VCDs and did not like the quality. I do not create VCD's I create CVDs and SVCDs with (in my viewpoint) higher quality. I only stoop to VCD "resolution" when I have an original video that is not that great a quality, and then I use Kwag's LBR template to produce an XVCD, which in my opinion looks better than most VCD's.

[icesurfer]

ah well

i agree that it will have no point when the dvd burners are cheap
but i already think it has no use right now.

you see with an vcd you don't have dolby and the image is bad because al the conversions
So i burn my downloaded movies in a folder as a data-cd
link my com to my tv ....... great movies

[adam]

If the audio was out of sync then it wasn't made correctly, and if its not even made correctly than chances are the creator didn't really know what they are doing so I doubt that the quality you saw is representative of a typical VCD.

What is the point of VCD? Well a properly made VCD is very similar to VHS in quality. Since many people still buy VHS obviously the quality is acceptable to some people. With VCD you get comparable quality but it does not degrade like VHS. If you find the quality of VHS unacceptable or a waste of time than no, you shouldn't bother with VCD.

Every format will eventually become outdated. CD technology in general will slowly be replaced by DVD, but this is still a long way off. VCD are still hugely popular in Asian markets. For the home encoder, dvd burners are becoming increasingly more attractive and in this particular area, encoding to VCD probably will become the exception to the rule. Personally I do find the quality of VCDs lacking and I gave them up a long time ago in favor of SVCD/CVDs, though I still make VCDS for my friends and family who are more than happy the quality.

[Conquest10]

using kwag's templates give great quality on one cd. almost on par with the dvd. notice i said almost. it depends on how long the movie is. but i just did a 2 hour movie that looks fantastic. plus cds are way cheaper than dvds. so unless dvd burners drop to less than $100, i'll stick with cd for the time being.

[lpn1160]

Everyone has an opinion. While VCD is not DVD, the VCDs' I make come out with xcellent quality and audio in synch all the time, the are very watchable and half the fun is in the capturing,editing, authoring and burning. And for the price they cost at the quality I get they're well worth it until DVD burners come within a reasonable price and the media itself has some kind of standarisation. Viva VCD until DVD is within reach of the avg comp geek(like myself)

[Biz]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm interested to read that maybe I can get better quality if I make my own CDs. I for one certainly cannot afford a DVD recorder at current prices. Perhaps I'll give it a go !

[geek rock]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm interested to read that maybe I can get better quality if I make my own CDs. I for one certainly cannot afford a DVD recorder at current prices. Perhaps I'll give it a go !

what sort of stuff are you planning on making? if your source material is under 40 minutes, try making SVCD's.. they're a real improvement in quality from VCD if they're encoded properly.

-Mark

[dcapp1]

To lpn1160: I too make vcds, but I prefer svcd. My question is if your vcds come out so good then you should share a guide with everybody else on this site because my vcds are not that good. I use the guides on this site as a reference. I also realize that your going to get crap for quality if your source is crappy, but if your source is a good quality source then why make vcd anyway. Thanks

[BrindA17-Kevin]

To sum up everything, if you think VCD's suck, try SVCD's, XSVCD's, or MiniDVD's. If you still aren't happy, then spend $300 on a DVD burner + the cost of the more expensive discs .

I love SVCD's, but the downside is the multiple discs required for each movie if you want good quality. The problem for me isn't the price of the CD-R's (they're very cheap), it's changing discs during the middle of the movie. I think I just feel this way because the only movie I have done so far is Lord of the Rings, a wapping 178 minutes that I used 5 discs for. If the movie is under 2 hours (as the average movie is), it will only take about 3 discs, and that isn't so bad. I also like to make slideshows with my dad's digital camera, so I have more than one use for SVCD's.

[vitualis]

I think most of the comments above are quite reasonable and give a relatively spectrum of ideas...

VCD - what's the point? As adam said, a well made VCD will have similar video quality to VHS and audio quality at near CD quality. Furthermore, it will not noticeable degrade with time. Furthermore, as one of the oldest digital video disc formats, it is extremely compatible as far as stand-alone players are concerned.

Now, if you don't like VHS quality video, then VCD is indeed a waste of time. However, for many people, good VCD quality video is still quite acceptable.

And of course, CD media and burners are cheap now.

I'm sure another reason people make VCDs is simply for the technical challenge. It's a great way (for example) of storing photos and camcorder video onto a more permanent format.

Now, if you want very high quality video, then DVD is definitely for you. However, if you just want to play around with the technology and hone your video editing/authoring skills, VCDs and SVCDs are great.

Regards.

[crahak]

using kwag's templates give great quality on one cd. almost on par with the dvd.

With anyone's templates, you will not reach anything near DVD quality, even on more than 1 CD. VHS quality at best.

[Conquest10]

i said almost. vhs at best? have you ever done an xvcd? it's obvious by your statement that you haven't.

[ZippyP.]

The problem for me isn't the price of the CD-R's (they're very cheap), it's changing discs during the middle of the movie. I think I just feel this way because the only movie I have done so far is Lord of the Rings, a wapping 178 minutes that I used 5 discs for.

If it bugs you that much, get a 5-disc changer (I did). They're not very expensive (much cheaper than a DVD burner) and quite convenient.

[Supremus]

I am the happy owner of a DVD burner, but I still like VCDs for the simple reason that they can easily be shared over the internet, and can be burned onto a CD and played on almost any PC or DVD player without need for conversion.

As a few people have pointed out in this thread, a properly encoded VCD can be very similar to VHS in quality, and for us Europeans who can't wait months, or years, to watch the latest Buffy, 24, Friends episodes, etc, VCD is a great format.

For the purposes of sharing, I think VCD will be around for a long time, as SVCD - and certainly DVD files - are still a bit too big for just casual downloads. I could see the 352x480 DVD resolution becoming popular, perhaps.

[lpn1160]

dcapp1: I don't think I do anything special. I capture with huffy @ 480x 480. I then frame serve with avisynth to tmpg. I use the Illegal VCD format, meaning that I sacrifice a little bitrate from the the audio to give to the video. Basically it's just NTSC 352x240 CQ100% max bitrate 1246kbps,audio stereo 128kbps. I use VCD format because my stand alone-player just won't play SVCD or XVCD. If you would like a small clip of one of my caps, let me know and see for yourself.
Like I said NO, they are not DVD, but they are VERY watchable. My source is just straight analog cable TV. As for capping from VHS, this is a horse of another colour.....................

[Conquest10]

lpn1160: what you make ARE xvcds. anytime you make a vcd that is not 352x240 at 1150 kb with the audio at 224 it is considered an xvcd.

[crahak]

i said almost. vhs at best? have you ever done an xvcd? it's obvious by your statement that you haven't.

DOH. You just know it eh? Even XVCDs are as good as VHS at best, and even lower for the most part. SVCD can be ok, but (X)VCD, forget it.

[Conquest10]

ok. whatever you say.

[dcapp1]

lpn1160: I would love to see a clip from one of your caps. if you need my e-mail address it is dcappellucci1@attbi.com.

[lpn1160]

XVCD @1246kbps? If one takes 96KB from the audio and adds it to the video the stream rate actually stays the same, NO?? 224kbps-96=128,
1150 (for vid) +96=1246, I always thought XVCD was trying to use bitrates like VID=1500,1600,etc with audio of 224 or better.
Hey maybe I'm wrong, (wouldn't be the first time in my life)

[petec]

My introduction to video / capturing was utilizing VCDs. I was impressed with the ability to edit / write an entire movie to two VCDs. The qualilty was good but never to my satisfaction. (u can really see artifacts / blems / etc on a 60" screen). I continued to invest in various capture devices until I was satisfied that I was seeing the best that I could do (decided on a Canopus ADVC100/Raptor combo). I was happy that I could play this two CD VCD on my portable player (I used to travel a lot) and my home CD. I moved to making SVCD's and again I was impressed with the ability to play decent (but not DVD) quality on most of the hardware. All the while still purchasing DVD's as it became a habit. Just recently purchased a DVD burner and again I am impressed with what I can do with it and and I still have much to learn. I don't know which I like best. The satisfaction of making a decent looking DVD or watching it. I still buy DVD's and I still capture much to DVD and I still spend more money for more technology. Historically watching/using PC's from the early 80's and always being amazed at what I, the home user could do year after year, using technology that changes and improves daily to me is impressive. VCD's are just a stepping stone on the learning curve and yes I believe they will be around a while longer.

[Marty2002]

DOH. You just know it eh? Even XVCDs are as good as VHS at best, and even lower for the most part. SVCD can be ok, but (X)VCD, forget it.

I disagree, you can get quality that nearly matches dvd quality on a xvcd. If you make a vcd with a resolution 720x480 with an extremely high bitrate, You'll get a few minutes of DVD quality. Or if you make an XSVCD you can get perfect DVD quality If ripped from a DVD. The reason vcd's are lower quality is because people are trying to fit as much time as possible on them. It's simply a matter of time vs quality. You can't have both on a vcd.

[crahak]

Well, we're not talking about making XVCD's at 720x480 at 8000kbps here... I do make (X)SVCD's and (X)CVD's and it looks decent, near DVD quality. Time and quality is always a trade off.

Besides, DVD is good, but no so incredible either, 1080p would rock, but it probably won't ever happen... (too demanding) Anyways, 720p and 1080i hdtv broadcasts look promising, but it's quite an investment. (You can record those too with a ATSC capture card (HiPix/MyHD...), then with a good encode, you can get higher than DVD quality. Guess I'll be buying a DVD writer then too (If you have a real powerful machine (htpc), you can encode that (IVTC'ed/decimated/... ) video to DivX and burn it to 2 DVD's, it is said to blow away Retail-DVD quality, and movie studios don't like the idea much )

Even if it's 1080i and not p, you still get 1920x1080... Of course the results will vary a lot depending on your avs scripting abilities and experience...

The bad thing is:
-HDTV receiver = $
-Nice HDTV = $$$ (pointless going HDTV with a crappy TV)
-ATSC card=$
-DVD burner + a few spindles odf decent media=$
=too much $$$
Oh well...

[Conquest10]

Well, we're not talking about making XVCD's at 720x480 at 8000kbps here

well that's an xvcd. i make mine at 2500 kbps. and they are really high up there in terms of quality. don't you feel salty.

[crahak]

No one is stupid enough to make XVCD's with these specs... You can make them at 2500 if u want, but I'd go SVCD instead. I have yet to see a real good (X)VCD. Besides, XVCD's with these specs will most likely play in 10x less players than SVCDs and still look worse than an SVCD.

Salty? Nope, whatever that means.

Sony KP65WS500 65" WS TV, anyone? lol

[Cornucopia]

(Trying to get back to original post)
Here's what's gonna happen...

Sometime in the next 3-10 years,
DVD-Recorders/Burners are gonna be about as cheap as CD Burners, and
DVD-+R blanks are gonna be almost as cheap as CD-R blanks, and/or
DVD-+RW blanks are gonna be almost as cheap as CD-RW blanks, and
DVD-Players are gonna be as cheap and plentiful as CD-Players.

THEN, there will be no need to do CD/VCD/XVCD/SVCD...
But by then, there'll be the push for Blu-Ray or whatever else they come up with,
In the meantime, there will still be a market and need to use CD-based tools and media.

I bet if you wanted to send a 5 min clip of some promo/trailer that you wanted to interest somebody in and you wanted a "cute" BizCard form factor, you'd still use CD.
I bet if you have 35 relatives, and are making a HiRez PhotoVCD slideshow for next Christmas, you'd still use CD.
Why? It's not just burner price, its media * units vs. need
Even compression time, and burn-time is still on the side of CD's.

But, of course, I can't wait until those days do come... 8)

Scott

[fmctm1sw]

(Trying to get back to original post)
Here's what's gonna happen...

I'll try to get even more back to the original. Until many of us can upgrade to faster computers, DVD is not an option due to encoding times and capturing resolutions. Until then, VCD cartoons (made with expressed written consent of cartoon network of course for my kids are just fine when correctly done.

[BrindA17-Kevin]

The problem for me isn't the price of the CD-R's (they're very cheap), it's changing discs during the middle of the movie. I think I just feel this way because the only movie I have done so far is Lord of the Rings, a wapping 178 minutes that I used 5 discs for.

If it bugs you that much, get a 5-disc changer (I did). They're not very expensive (much cheaper than a DVD burner) and quite convenient.

I just bought a new DVD player. It was the only one at bestbuy that plays everything.

Now if they make a separate disc changer that you can hook up to your DVD player....