The definative solution to our sync problems...

Here is another note of encouragement to both of you.
Thanks for all the hard work and countless hours of debugging. We all await what will be a breakthrough as keeping things in sync on the Mac has always been a hit and miss kinda deal.
Lets hope we can see this thing this weekend.


As a side note, Bilestyle, will you keep working on Afropic or is this project taking precidence? I quite like Afropic.

[bilestyle]

right now i am solely working on this other project.. once we churn out the first release i may continue to work on afropic, im not certain about it yet.

[Eug]

Great! Keep up the great work guys.

[KaiCherry]

I hate mpeg2.

Wanna know whats taking so long? That's it...its so grueling its almost not worth doing

You people will be billed for this...

Its gonna cost ya. Not much, but yeah...I think we might have to extract cash for this.

But don't worry. Unless you are *total scum*, happy to rip off an out of work Sys Engineer with a wife and kids, and a struggling college boy, you will WANT to pay.

Ask Bilestyle, i've been discouraged more than a couple times by this. But as we come down to the wire, its worth it. If I do so say so myself (and I will) this brings this stuff to a whole different level.

The way I see it, if this gets you past even *1* or *2* of your "impossible" rips, let alone run of the mill stuff, it will be more than worth it

So...How much (less than the price of a dvd) would this be worth?

You tell us. (and yes, you'll get to try it first)

-K

[WiseWeasel]

I'll pay $10-20 for it, but only if there's an option to run the process in the terminal for debugging/modification purposes. If this is not possible, then maybe I'd shell out $5 for it. The lack of that option would severely limit the usefullness of your app, to be able to add custom flags with the different processes. Maybe a Standard and Pro version of your soft, priced accordingly.

[qshartle]

Hey! Thats good news!

Is there any way of realesing the Divx part first?
Thats all I really care about.

If bilestile is taking so long, relaese it in parts.


Q

[KaiCherry]

I'll pay $10-20 for it, but only if there's an option to run the process in the terminal for debugging/modification purposes.

Interesting. So, if we release a crap app that *needs* to have that sort of thing, its worth more...

But one that "just works" (like a mac app should) is worth less to you.

Interesting...interesting indeed.

Well...I can tell ya now, that it does not open or run any terms (why?).

If this is not possible, then maybe I'd shell out $5 for it. The lack of that option would severely limit the usefullness of your app

Please explain this further, if you can. You can set the datarate on mpeg streams if you so choose. This isn't enough?

Or to put it another way: ffmpegX and MMT let you flip switches to your hearts content...but if you get a synced product out the other end for all format, good on ya.

Very, very interesting indeed. Any other opinions?

-K

[qshartle]

Put it out in 2 parts?


DivX its own gui
SVCD/VCD/DVD its own gui



Since ur r alreadu done with ur part, why dont you just release that, and release the other part when youve finished testing?


Q

[KaiCherry]

If bilestile is taking so long, relaese it in parts.
Q

He's not taking any longer than necessary. He wants the same thing I want for the software. The math involved for the mpeg stuff is just more complex.

And notice I said "math"...

We aren't just writing a Super-Kewl AppleScript Studio App wrapper for the tools you know and love

If that were the case I would have been done days ago, lol.

-K

[qshartle]

O
i c
well.........
you think itll be out this weekend or soon?

[WiseWeasel]

Please explain this further, if you can. You can set the datarate on mpeg streams if you so choose. This isn't enough?
-K

NO, this is not enough. Especially for the Divx encoding. The ability to set flags for deinterlace, VBR options, quantizer, motion estimation method, etc. for the divx encoding is necessary. Yes, ffmpegX et al. let you set options to your heart's content, but unfortunately, they don't always produce synched audio and video, or allow for subtitles. To have all of this combined would be the holy grail of DVD->AVI on MacOS X.
I might have been a little harsh on my suggested prices, and would probably spend up to $10 for the basic version you describe, and up to $25-30 for a pro version with all the Divx options, or just a simple checkbox to do processing in the terminal, so I can set the options I want.
Note: You might be putting yourself in an actionable position by distributing dvd cracking software commercially for a profit, so I'm not sure directly charging for a license for the soft is a very good idea. Maybe donationware, with a general way of giving your 'company' money untied to the software license for this product. Do not use Paypal.

[KaiCherry]

"Note: You might be putting yourself in an actionable position by distributing dvd cracking software commercially for a profit, so I'm not sure directly charging for a license for the soft is a very good idea. Maybe donationware, with a general way of giving your 'company' money untied to the software license for this product. Do not use Paypal."

Ummm...

Interesting twist...but where am I "cracking" DVDs more than any other player?

That being said, it would be easy enough to detatch that part if need be...or you can pick it up in China or Brunei or something.

"Donate" what you want, but without "donations" it will never go beyond what is released.

Oh.

It aint gpl'd either

-K

[DVdudeman]

Kai,

Wow, for what you guys are doing for this community I should think that you would get more respect -- sheesh

"gimme this now, gimme that now, when's it going to be done? I'll give you a buck if it works, make it run like a windoze application so it sucks, make it open a terminal window and ask George Lucas if he has any cheese for my wine while I rip Star Wars..."

As I recall, a week ago we all had zilch. Now I hope nobody takes my silly comments too personal -- no need to flame me :b But lets give this crew some support where it counts.

Kai, if this truly works as you & Bile say it does (and I for one believe you) it is definitely worth a reasonable donation from those in the Mac community that stand to benefit from it's time saving features.

BTW -- you guys are 100% correct in your desire to make it run like a real mac application. I totally love the idea of being able to drop in a DVD, go to bed, come back in the morning with my coffee, and see positive results. I am sick to death of wasting my time on SYNCH PROBLEMS! Last time I checked, this is indeed a Mac users forum... I salute your vision.

The going rate for shareware is around $20. This should be enough to put a few beans on the table for the family (I'm not making light of your situation -- but being a small business owner, I can relate). However, only you guys really know how much blood, sweat and tears you pumped into this effort (as a fellow engineer, I'm quite certain it was substantial). Therefore you get the honor of setting the price. There will always be a small number of those who will never quite get this... there is no honor amongst theives.

I think I speak for the majority of Mac users when I say, let me know what I owe you and thanks for solving what has been a nightmare on our beloved Mac.

[KaiCherry]

Thanks DVDMan...

Thanks.

The intent is to distribute this on the "honor" system...
If it works for Bannister, it can work for us.

If its crippled in any way, it will be the standard time expiring beta, should we choose to do so.

But yeah...I figure most folks are cool...if it gets them over that hump, its worth somethin' to them.

We'll see soon enough,

-K

[rockinsage]

hey Kai, I didn't see your response before I posted this, but here it is anyway...

I would be in agreement that a small donation/fee might be appropriate (I'm thinking $10-15 -- it's hard to tell without seeing the app). However, I must say that I would like at least a few user options (in addition to user bitrate which is already in place). For instance, I'm not too wild about the fact that the app will force progressive output. I'm not sure why this decision was made, but it sure would be nice to be able to deselect the "deinterlace" option.

Being able to use .dv files (as input), would also be a useful option to those with camcorders (though I suppose you could rely on some of the other existing tools for this). Maybe in v2?

Anyway, I agree that a Mac app should "just work", but a Mac app also should not force you into a way of doing something that doesn't suit your needs. The perfect balance is exposing just enough conrol to the user, but not so much that the average user is confused and has to spend hours learning what all of the options are for. Not an easy task. Neither is balancing the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few.

I am in no way belittling this undertaking, in fact I think we're all going to owe KaiCherry and Bilestyle kudos in addition to whatever they decide to ask for a fee. I fully appreciate the trouble they're going to and am impressed by what they seem to be accomplishing. Working for a software engineering firm myself (though not for my platform of choice), I understand the never-ending tug-of-war between users' desires and the programmers' vision.

I will be thankful to try out the finished product, regardless if any of my "pet features" make it in!

:: rockinsage ::

[WiseWeasel]

Kai,

Wow, for what you guys are doing for this community I should think that you would get more respect -- sheesh

"gimme this now, gimme that now, when's it going to be done? I'll give you a buck if it works, make it run like a windoze application so it sucks, make it open a terminal window and ask George Lucas if he has any cheese for my wine while I rip Star Wars..."
...
BTW -- you guys are 100% correct in your desire to make it run like a real mac application. I totally love the idea of being able to drop in a DVD, go to bed, come back in the morning with my coffee, and see positive results. I am sick to death of wasting my time on SYNCH PROBLEMS! Last time I checked, this is indeed a Mac users forum... I salute your vision.
...
I think I speak for the majority of Mac users when I say, let me know what I owe you and thanks for solving what has been a nightmare on our beloved Mac.

I meant no disrespect when requesting advanced options or offerring a certain price for their work. I would like an option to send the processing to the terminal, so that I could modify the command and add options for the divx encoding. This could be defaulted to 'off' and the poor little one-button mouse using Mac users who don't want to complicate the process could just go about their business and do it normally using the default options in the GUI. For more advanced users, the ability to either enter all the desired options in the GUI ala ffmpegX or Mac Divx Creator, or just in the terminal by editing the flags manually would be essential (unless there is a single setting that will somehow be optimal for all content, one I haven't found yet). Kai asked for opinions on a price, and that's what I gave, an opinion. It doesn't have to agree with yours or anyone else's, hence his request for more comments.
That being said, I hold Kai and Bile in the highest of regards for their work and dedication, and I am very happy that they have chosen to tackle this very difficult problem. I think it would be a shame to put in all this work, and then get suboptimal divx encoding, just so noobes won't get confused by too many options. My solution to this was to have two versions, a basic and pro one, at different price points, so everyone is a winner. People who just want a basic GUI that makes all the decisions for them can get the basic version, while users that are more comfortable with divx encoding and terminal use might get the Pro version for extra customization.
====> Kai: Separating the DeCSS component as a separate .pkg installer would be a great way to separate it for legal reasons, yet keep it easily installable for newbie users. I would be willing to mirror it on my idisk, and I'm sure plenty of others would too. This complicates things a little bit, but you might be happy to not have a lawsuit later and have to stop distributing everything. The rest of the software could be sold for profit without fear of repercussions, but that component can be troublesome. The reason this is more risky than any DVD Player is that it would put the protected content in an unprotected form. That's why all the DVD ripping tools are just freeware floating around the net (that and it's hard to get pirates to pay for software, which is what the vast majority of the software's users are). I hope you guys can find a good solution that can allow you to charge per license and be able to rip DVDs. Also, the ability to convert an unprotected VIDEO_TS folder on a hard drive might be a solution to this problem, since no DeCSS is necessary, and the encoding would be faster reading from a HD. This soft, combined with DVD Backup might be the solution you are looking for.

[KaiCherry]

hey Kai, I didn't see your response before I posted this, but here it is anyway...

I would be in agreement that a small donation/fee might be appropriate (I'm thinking $10-15 -- it's hard to tell without seeing the app). However, I must say that I would like at least a few user options (in addition to user bitrate which is already in place). For instance, I'm not too wild about the fact that the app will force progressive output. I'm not sure why this decision was made, but it sure would be nice to be able to deselect the "deinterlace" option.

Lol...I personally was gonna leave it off, but Bile thought it should be on...Greater Good sort of thing.

Also keep this in mind...this is very, very important. I don't really need this app

I don't mean that as nasty as it comes out, but leave us face it...we set out to solve a problem: getting sync'd up DVD rips in dvix or VCD/SVCD.

That was *it*. All. Must the standards, no tricks.

Now, we are handling DVD->DVD, as well as custom user rates.

IN SYNC.

I can't see why any of the rest of that stuff matters...if it ain't IN SYNC its worthless. Poop! Boogers. Doodie.

Being able to use .dv files (as input), would also be a useful option to those with camcorders (though I suppose you could rely on some of the other existing tools for this). Maybe in v2?

That is outside of the scope of this solution. I think Apple already makes stuff that does this, no?

Anyway, I agree that a Mac app should "just work", but a Mac app also should not force you into a way of doing something that doesn't suit your needs.

I agree. If your needs go beyond getting sync'd dvd rips, then this isn't the thing for you.

But I've said that all along

The perfect balance is exposing just enough conrol to the user, but not so much that the average user is confused and has to spend hours learning what all of the options are for. Not an easy task. Neither is balancing the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few.

*exactly* The point I've been making all along

I am in no way belittling this undertaking, in fact
I think we're all going to owe KaiCherry and Bilestyle kudos in addition to whatever they decide to ask for a fee. I fully appreciate the trouble they're going to and am impressed by what they seem to be accomplishing. Working for a software engineering firm myself (though not for my platform of choice), I understand the never-ending tug-of-war between users' desires and the programmers' vision.

Not a problem. My vision is clear: To allow Mac Users a tool to confidently rip an in-sync DVD, 99.99%+ of the time, by merely putting a cd in the machine and basically picking a place to save the results.

As far as options go, you have bitrate options, *language* options, subtitle options and even what title to rip off a dvd if the main one isn't what you want.

That's not bad Its not every suboption under the sun...but it ain't bad.

-K

[rockinsage]

As far as options go, you have bitrate options, *language* options, subtitle options and even what title to rip off a dvd if the main one isn't what you want.

That's not bad Its not every suboption under the sun...but it ain't bad.

I have to concur. Looking forward to it!

:: rockinsage ::

[bilestyle]

we appreciate all the support and feedback given based on the task at hand. The goal set forward for this program was that it would not involve endless checkboxes for various options the normal user would have no idea about. One shouldnt need a degree in video conversion to understand how to convert their video to something they like. (And can use for that matter)

adding more to the pile only complicates things further, advanced options, additional tweaking, all these things increase the probability of a bug overlooked and a user distraut to come back to a process and seein that all the time/effort was for naught.

the highest priority of this program is simplicity, it may or may not be the solution for users ranging from beginner to advanced, but we are tryin to make the decisions based on what we think are the best results, while attempting to keep a good speed/quality ratio. The scope of this program is not to be an all in one app, its a simple program that delivers quality material IN SYNC.

with regards to ANY question based on the software accepting vob files, dv files, or what have you, the answer is most simply no. Sorry but I really don't feel the need to justify this, its just the way things are.

and the biggest thing to stress is that kai does not have to do any of this work, he has little interest in DVD->VCD/SVCD/DVD since he primarily uses divx, so he is doing a lot of this out of the kindess of his heart. I'd be lying through my teeth if i said i could do even half of this w/o the work he puts into it.

Hope this clears it up for everyone now!!! Jeezz

[illogicalprod]

if it works as described, i'llgive $20 or so..

i would like terminal output as well. not because i dont believe in a Macintosh app "working as it should" but because i like to see what an app is doing specifically in case i want to bend the rules set forth by that app. If i am paying for it, thats a right i have, is it not?

My DVD player is finnickey -- it can play odd combination of bit rates that are deemed to be not standard, and i want that flexibility.

If you release this program and it does what yo usay it does 99.99% of the time, you must understand that it will only take a week or two for it to be reverse engineered 100% to meet the end users needs. One can only assume that it is being produced mostly with apps that fall under GNU.

You might as well offer this from the get go and allow more users to pay for your product and be 100% confident that they have flexibility.


Hell i will pre-pay for it.

My 2¢.

[KaiCherry]

if it works as described, i'llgive $20 or so..

i would like terminal output as well. not because i dont believe in a Macintosh app "working as it should" but because i like to see what an app is doing specifically in case i want to bend the rules set forth by that app. If i am paying for it, thats a right i have, is it not?

I don't think reverse engineering is a "right"... But it just doesn't work that way.

Think iDVD. iDVD has 'toolsevers'...this is designed the same way. It doesn't out put to the turm because it isn't written to.

If you release this program and it does what yo usay it does 99.99% of the time, you must understand that it will only take a week or two for it to be reverse engineered 100% to meet the end users needs. One can only assume that it is being produced mostly with apps that fall under GNU.

That's just...sad. I'm sure someone will give it a go. It does ultimatley output to the mjpegtools. Good luck. I suppose if it were that easy tho, I wouldn't be wasting my time writing routines to make it work *properly* , huh?

You might as well offer this from the get go and allow more users to pay for your product and be 100% confident that they have flexibility.

You just don't get it, do ya?

You'll see. It will be clear soon enough.

-K

[illogicalprod]

You just don't get it, do ya?

You'll see. It will be clear soon enough.

-K

Oh i see... I'm supposed to "get it" when we are talking about something that is pure talk between you and bile!

I dont think anyone on this board has seen or used this program except you and bile, so dont treat me like im the dumbass because i don't "get" what you are doing.



Throw a beta at me and maybe i will "get it".

Thanks for pointing out that your program uses GNU tools.

Now i DEFINITELY won't pay for it.

[pmcd]

I have a standalone DivX player so I don't really fool with SVCDs anymore.

Hmm...that's interesting. What is a DivX player? Do you mean something like a Dreamcast? Sounds interesting whatever it is.

philip

[SCB]

http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de

Changed my life. For ~$200, it plays whatever I throw at it...no hours and hours of conversion, etc.

Works great for me, is updated regularly. I know personally 5 *mac* folks that bought when they say what it did, connected to my TV, in highdef

[WiseWeasel]

===> pmcd: He was referring to his XBox with some media streaming app.
===> illogical: If you think you can get NTSC DVDs to rip in sync using the bare gnu vid tools, then by all means, go for it, and report how it goes. As for typical users, this solution will be a godsend. Why don't you stop talking smack and wow us with your fabulous solution? You can vote with your wallet later, after you spend weeks on end trying to get the @^#%$@#$ rip to sync. I would also like a terminal option, so I could modify the tags for the divx encoding, but it's not a make or break feature if the final product looks good and has a small filesize without motion estimation crapping out in sudden lighting changes and such. Here's hoping.

[Flip Flop Frog]

As I recall, a week ago we all had zilch. Now I hope nobody takes my silly comments too personal -- no need to flame me :b But lets give this crew some support where it counts.

I hate to break the word to you bud, but if you hand't realized, we still have zilch. We have words... and people saying that they have found this wonderful method of solving piles of synch problems, however have YOU seen anything concrete?

Oh i see... I'm supposed to "get it" when we are talking about something that is pure talk between you and bile!

I dont think anyone on this board has seen or used this program except you and bile, so dont treat me like im the dumbass because i don't "get" what you are doing.

I'm wondering some of the same things myself. I'm a bit of a skeptical character, and I like to stick to the "I'll believe it when I see it" thoughts and logic. After a few posts I sort of found it odd that you folks let us know there was this solution before you could prove it, show it, or anything like that.

Now something that's not common about software development is you telling people your developing something new before you've got something to show. Normally, you release an ALPHA or BETA or something to the general public (or select public) and explain what it does or does better. Normally releasing any information or plans to your software leads to the compitition beating you too it.

So you think, well microshaft let us know about windows XP before the beta was out. Actually they didn't... it was leaked. They responded to the leak.

To sum things up, I don't believe that this project is even real. It seems to full of hype, promise, and apparent success without any proof. Not a scrap, screenshot, demo, or antyhing.

So suddenly you think you can toss a screenshot at us all... But, I could conjer a screenshot in about 20 minutes with my good friend photoshop that would knock your socks off. Give me a whole hour and I could make it so that you couldn't prove it's been created.

It's about time you stepped up to the plate and showed us something solid, or expect to lose belief and respect quite quickly.

------------------------

Now, I may be wrong. And you know, I really do hope I'm wrong, because like everyone else, I'd love to be able to make use of this said product of yours, if it works like you say it does.

If I am wrong, and you've got a way to put your money where your mouth is, I appologize.



Sincerely,

Flip Flop Frog

[Coupedevil]

Geeez--

What a bunch of hostility. This could be the coolest app we have--hey, let's piss off the authors so they never release it!

What's wrong with you people? It's hard to contain things that are exciting. Maybe they did announce it too soon, but I appreciate the heads up, the enthusiasm, and the excitement.

Even if it doesn't exist, doesn't work or is inaccessible to the average user, haven't Kai and Bile done plenty for this community? Answers, hints, tips to thousands of posts?

Give the guys a break.

Coupe

P.S. My birthday's Monday. Wanna send me an alpha?

[SCB]

I hate to break the word to you bud, but if you hand't realized, we still have zilch.

Uhhh, am I the only one getting perfectly synced DVD to vcd/svcd/divx in ffmpegX?

BTW, flip, quit complaining and trying to force an app out of Bile and Kai.

[rockinsage]

SCB,

ffmpegX does not generate in-sync output for some problematic DVD's.

:: rockinsage ::