The Best Template Out There for TMPGEnc?

[kwag]

I disagree. KVCD is essentially a subset of XVCD (or if you like, a VCD with non-standard specs) and even NOW, not all DVD players can play off-spec VCDs (from the perspective of a hardware manufacturer, there is no reason why they should -- the players themselves only need to support S/VCD).

Maybe a Superset, but not a subset

However, all good things will pass in time... As per my example before. How many players now can play CD-i video discs? If I made an "X"-CD-i video disc back then, my chances of it playing are even less now...

Regards.

Sure, but I could compare CD-i to what Laser Disk was. Short live span 8)
You can't compare VCDs to CD-i.

-kwag

[vitualis]

Not entirely sure what you are going on about...

Everything that is "obsolete" NOW appears to have had a "short" life span. Admittedly, CD-i was not a commercial success but that doesn't really mean much. It's what happened afterwards that is telling. As for laser disc, I can tell you that it had a pretty long lifespan and it's popularity rivals VCD world-wide.

The majority of consumer demand for VCD support is not in the home hobbyist / home VCD authoring scene (i.e., us). It is in the playback of commercially available VCDs. As the costs of DVD production (for both players and discs) have plummeted, content that used to be released on VCD is increasingly moving onto DVD media. It will not take long before there is little demand for VCD support.

And, as per my previous arguements. When, the hardware manufacturers stop caring about good VCD support, you shouldn't expect anything better than just the ability to playback standard discs.

Regards.

[wway]

Well, after reading this thread it seems the only real solution for us is to build our own video player (ie. computer). A neighbor of mine built a pretty nice system based on the Shuttle Mini PC. Has s-video, component video and standard video output. Has a 80 GB harddrive, boots to Windows XP, runs PowerDVD at startup. Looks great on my 27" Sony (yeah, i played with it for a few hours ).

PowerDVD was configured to run the disk when it was inserted. Didnt always work. All it really needed was a wireless keyboard or mouse. Was able to play all kinds of XVCD/XSVCD. No real worry about max bitrates or resolutions. I didnt have any KVCD's (sorry kwag). Didnt have any Divx files to try either. But I dont see a problem with playing dixv given the correct software and codec (coz it's a computer).

Oh yeah, it plays DVD's too (has a DVD-ROM drive). My neighbor says everything cost about US$300-US$350. (this seems a little low)


@kwag
I really like what you have done with the KVCD templates. After i build a system as i've described above, i will start to use your templates. Your templates are just not compatible enough with my current standalone DVD players.

@vitualis
You are correct. The DVD manufacturers care only about the bottom line. If supporting only standard discs is to their advantage, thats what they will do. So, a computer with video out may be the solution to support our collection of non-standard video.

wway

[kwag]

As for laser disc, I can tell you that it had a pretty long lifespan and it's popularity rivals VCD world-wide.

Oh come on vitualis, "Worldwide" is to broad for what you are saying!. Go to any store in the US and see how many LaserDisc players you can find. Now see how many DVD players in the store can play VCDs. Some stores MAY carry ONE Laserdisc player, but most won't have any. But ALL stores will have DVD players that can play VCDs.

And, as per my previous arguements. When, the hardware manufacturers stop caring about good VCD support, you shouldn't expect anything better than just the ability to playback standard discs.

Regards.

And as one of my previous posts, I completely disagree. IF there were one or two DVD manufacturers in the world, then maybe this would be true. There are SO many manufacturers in the world, that if anyone dares to drop support on the "standard" features ( VCD included ) of their product line, they would kill themselves. This is a "Horizontal" market. Not a vertical market. It will be many many years before you see every DVD player on the market "without" some kind of VCD playback support. Maybe they won't even label them in the box as being able to play "VCD", as many current players like some Pioneer players that play SVCD perfectly well, but don't even mention it on the manual or box.

And 10 years from now, we'll probably be playing 1TB+ 2 inch holographic molecular nanoTechnology optical disks ( http://www.colossalstorage.net/ ) on our standalone players. So my KVCD collection, being higher quality than regular VCDs and SVCDs, will be re-encoded in 5 minutes at 50Mbps on our new Intel Hectium 25Ghz machines 8). So there won't be any re-compression loss. DVDs, VCDs, SVCDs and KVCDs will be a thing of the past, but the compression and quality that we achieved today with KVCD parameters and optimizations will be carried to the future on to other media. Just think about that for a moment

-kwag

[vitualis]

As for laser disc, I can tell you that it had a pretty long lifespan and it's popularity rivals VCD world-wide.

Oh come on vitualis, "Worldwide" is to broad for what you are saying!. Go to any store in the US and see how many LaserDisc players you can find. Now see how many DVD players in the store can play VCDs. Some stores MAY carry ONE Laserdisc player, but most won't have any. But ALL stores will have DVD players that can play VCDs.

Please think beyond your US-centric world view. The reason DVD players in the US has VCD support has pretty much nothing to do with consumer demand FOR VCD in the US. Laserdisc support is poorer for a relatively simple reason -- it it is on a different medium. It would be like asking for LP support on a CD player.

However, I am talking about what happens to formats that have become obsolete. You can expect that support for the format will become poorer -- i.e., you should only expect that the machine works properly/well for in-spec discs.

And as one of my previous posts, I completely disagree. IF there were one or two DVD manufacturers in the world, then maybe this would be true. There are SO many manufacturers in the world, that if anyone dares to drop support on the "standard" features ( VCD included ) of their product line, they would kill themselves.

Really? How about Apex? They seem to be doing pretty well. Don't generalise kwag. Look at the real situation. The Western market / average Western consumer doesn't care about VCD compatibility because they don't have any VCDs and probably will never have one. The only markets where VCD compatibility matter is in those countries with a high penetration of VCD updake (primarily, SE Asia). Even in this market, VCDs is slowly (?quickly) being replaced with DVD.

This is a "Horizontal" market. Not a vertical market. It will be many many years before you see every DVD player on the market "without" some kind of VCD playback support. Maybe they won't even label them in the box as being able to play "VCD", as many current players like some Pioneer players that play SVCD perfectly well, but don't even mention it on the manual or box.

That's not my point kwag. My point was that when VCD support is no longer important to hardware manufacturers -- i.e., when they support VCDs out of habit rather than any real consumer demand or need, you can expect the quality of support to decline. As such, you should not expect anything other than standard VCDs to play properly on those players.

And 10 years from now, we'll probably be playing 1TB+ 2 inch holographic molecular nanoTechnology optical disks ( http://www.colossalstorage.net/ ) on our standalone players. So my KVCD collection, being higher quality than regular VCDs and SVCDs, will be re-encoded in 5 minutes at 50Mbps on our new Intel Hectium 25Ghz machines 8). So there won't be any re-compression loss. DVDs, VCDs, SVCDs and KVCDs will be a thing of the past, but the compression and quality that we achieved today with KVCD parameters and optimizations will be carried to the future on to other media. Just think about that for a moment

And how about you think about this for a moment. 10 years from now, I'll probably be PRETTY BUSY, and won't have time to convert the hundreds of VCDs I have even now to any new format. I would probably want to get a player that would play my discs as is perfectly...

Chances are, as long as future video discs still have the same physical dimensions as a CD (e.g., blue laser vcds), they will still have VCD support. Whether such players will be able to play non-standard discs perfectly in the same way as your current players cannot be assumed.

Regards.

[Graal_cpm]

I have been using Kwag's template for about one year and IT ROCKS!!!! For me it is the best MPEG1 XVCD template EVER... And it is improving day by day thanx to the Kwagist community (sorry, I could not resist )

Actually, I agree with the argument that VCD/XVCD may not be supported by DVD (or any new format) players in the futur. However this is going to be a problem only for people not indulging in computers...

Well, I am still able to play musics and animation that I had created almost 20 years ago on my Apple II+!
Quality is not worse or better... just the same stuff that has migrated from 5'1/4 floppy to 3,5' (Apple 2GS) and finally CDROM.

So I don't give a damn about the fact that KVCD is not an "official" standard and that I may not be able to play it on my to-come blue-ray player.

I know that 20 years from now I will be able to watch my KVCDs, with the same quality I have today, not worse or better (well maybe better with some real-time filters ) using a computer that will finally be silent and seamlessly plugged into my TV screen.

Do you wanna bet?

[draven1968]

why waste all tis time discussing XVCD standard VCD formats ? yadda yadda yadda.........

i work in a tv/vcr dvd repair company and have had the advantage
of testing MANY different brands of DVD players..... all my STANDARD
VCD/SVCD disc have played Perfectly. NON-STANDARD VCD/SVCD
have had wildly varying results. from Playable - Barely Playbable to NON
Playable.

Its OK to break the rules, but be aware if the s**t hits the fan, you've
only got yourself to blame

Happy New Year

[tastypoison]

I haven't used the kvcd templates, but I know firsthand that it really sux to find out your new standalone won't play something you created earlier.

I started out with a Panasonic standalone that handled pretty much any type of mpeg1 (vcd) thrown at it, but no mpeg2 (svcd). I only had about 80% success using the TmpgEnc header trick to get svcd to play smoothly on the Panasonic. I started getting more and more svcd's, so I went looking for a player that supported both vcd and svcd formats.

Now, I don't know where you guys are shopping for dvd players, but the stores around here don't have their dvd players hooked to TV's where I could try a (x)vcd/(x)svcd test disk before buying. So, I made a list of the units available locally, and did my research here on vcdhelp.com. I decided against Apex because of all the quality complaints. I bought a Magnavox that worked well, but wouldn't play PAL disks on my NTSC TV - so I took it back and got a JVC.

The JVC does a great job playing VCD and SVCD in both NTSC and PAL, but it doesn't want to play anything with non-standard video (it will accept 48KHz audio). None of my disks that use the header trick will work on this unit. I also have some xvcd's that I created from divx dvdrips that were beautiful on the Panasonic, and they won't play on the JVC either.

Eventually, I will do like a previous post said: build a small computer for dedicated video playback on my TV.

[kwag]

I know that 20 years from now I will be able to watch my KVCDs, with the same quality I have today, not worse or better (well maybe better with some real-time filters ) using a computer that will finally be silent and seamlessly plugged into my TV screen.

That's right!. 20 years from now, every entertainment system will be a computer itself. The concept of "standalone" will not exist. The concept of "integrated" or "all-in-one" will be used. Then everything will play. MPEG-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 etc

Do you wanna bet?

Hehe, I'll bet with you, not against

-kwag

[draganong]

I tried the Kwag DVD template. It played in my Apex 1500, but it was jerky every 2-3 seconds. Quality was good, but I could not fix the jerkyness problem. The original clip was interlaced, 720x480 7000 VBR converted via Kwags template modified a bit via TMPGEnc to 5500 VBR highest resolution CQ 100. I did tinker with a few other settings, but could not get rid of the jerkiness problem....
Kwag, any idea ?

[draganong]

Also, when I reverted to the original TMPGEnc template, it also became jerky. The only was to fix that was to delete TMPGEnc 2.53 and reinstall it. I believe it was caused by the Kwag Qmatrix and GOP settings that remained until TMPGEnc was reinstalled...

[kwag]

Kwag, any idea ?

If the original source was interlaced, you probably had to encode at 29.97fps interlaced and not as 23.976fps with 3:2 pulldown. That's the default of the templates, and that's probably why your video didn't play smooth.

-kwag

[kwag]

I believe it was caused by the Kwag Qmatrix and GOP settings that remained until TMPGEnc was reinstalled...

The matrix won't cause any incompatibilities. It will actually give you better quality and lower file size than the "standard" MPEG Q. matrix.

-kwag

[draganong]

One of the settings I modified when I noticed the jerkiness was to select 29.97 and no pulldown. It was still jerky, I am not sure why. I did save the template, I believe, since I would really like to get it to work after all the great comments I saw here and on KDVD forum about your work...
What else could it be ?

[thegig]

draganong, I am not sure what the source aspect ratio is on your movie, but I noticed if the the source aspect in TMPGEnc does not match the true source as well as destination that caused a jitter, and I too have an APEX1500.

[draganong]

The source seen with Bitrate was I believe 704x480. Tmpgeng insists on 720x480. I tried various combinations (720x480, 704x480) same problem, also present on a Raite 715. I also tries to set the output as NTSC 525 line or NTSC 525 line 704x480, same jerkiness.

[smokedvw]

SKVCD?
WHERE IS THIS. I cant find it. I have made my own and auto fit it each time and the quality is pritty good but I would like to see this DVD quality on 1 CDR in SVCD format.
Please send me a link or via email at
borajetta@hotmail.com
for the TMPEG file.
Thanks

[kwag]

SKVCD?
WHERE IS THIS. I cant find it.

http://www.kvcd.net/SKVCD-352x480-_NTSC_.mcf

[smokedvw]

Everyone is always talking about VCD but my apex 1200 wont play vcd only SVCD should I take it back and get a player that will do VCD?
Isnt SVCD better quality? or not because you have to lower the bitrate to fit it on 1 CDR anyways?
If you think I should take it back can someone recomend a CHeaper player that will play vcd, svcd, mpeg1/2 iso, dvdr and dvd-rw?
thanks

[smokedvw]

SKVCD?
WHERE IS THIS. I cant find it.

http://www.kvcd.net/SKVCD-352x480-_NTSC_.mcf

thanks will this work on a apex 1200 I have only been using 480x480?

[smokedvw]

Well, after reading this thread it seems the only real solution for us is to build our own video player (ie. computer). A neighbor of mine built a pretty nice system based on the Shuttle Mini PC. Has s-video, component video and standard video output. Has a 80 GB harddrive, boots to Windows XP, runs PowerDVD at startup. Looks great on my 27" Sony (yeah, i played with it for a few hours ).

PowerDVD was configured to run the disk when it was inserted. Didnt always work. All it really needed was a wireless keyboard or mouse. Was able to play all kinds of XVCD/XSVCD. No real worry about max bitrates or resolutions. I didnt have any KVCD's (sorry kwag). Didnt have any Divx files to try either. But I dont see a problem with playing dixv given the correct software and codec (coz it's a computer).

Oh yeah, it plays DVD's too (has a DVD-ROM drive). My neighbor says everything cost about US$300-US$350. (this seems a little low)


@kwag
I really like what you have done with the KVCD templates. After i build a system as i've described above, i will start to use your templates. Your templates are just not compatible enough with my current standalone DVD players.

@vitualis
You are correct. The DVD manufacturers care only about the bottom line. If supporting only standard discs is to their advantage, thats what they will do. So, a computer with video out may be the solution to support our collection of non-standard video.

wway

hey kind of quality did TV out (S-video) look like cause I have a RADEON 9700 PRO and a nice ass system but havent moved it downstairs to watch on my TV. What does the quality look like?
THanks if anyone else knows that would be awsome to let me know.

[thegig]

draganong, what I mean is, is it 4:3 or 16:1. The resolution, as long as it is DVD/CVD/VCD/SVCD compatible should not cause any jitters. The APEX seems to not care too much about that. The other thing that I noticed causes jitters is the MAX GOP. I'm not at home so I can't get that right now. But try changing that. Kwag would probably be able to answer what it is. I'll check when I get home if there are still questions. But those are those two likely culprits.

[Conquest10]

Isnt SVCD better quality?

actually, below 2500 kbps MPEG1 is better than MPEG2. so if you were to make an svcd and an xvcd at the same settings under 2500 kbps the xvcd would look better.

[thegig]

Ok, the studder was resolved (in my case) by setting the GOP as follows:
1, 5823, 3, 48. Hope this works.

[kwag]

Ok, the studder was resolved (in my case) by setting the GOP as follows:
1, 5823, 3, 48. Hope this works.

No. Try 1, 5823, 1, 1, 24
That's the new GOP. BTW: 5823 is just KVCD's signature ( if you look at your Tel. keypad ). The last number(24) is what defines the number of frames per GOP. So the second field could be even 9999 and it wouldn't matter

-kwag

[wway]

hey kind of quality did TV out (S-video) look like cause I have a RADEON 9700 PRO and a nice ass system but havent moved it downstairs to watch on my TV. What does the quality look like?
THanks if anyone else knows that would be awsome to let me know.

I assume the S-Video output ports on a video card would be the same as S-Video ports on DVD players. Should be the same specs. I guess the quality could vary. What i saw looked a bit better than my Apex 660 S-Video output (i switched several times to compare the picture quality)

You can checkout the Shuttle PC's and acessories at the link below.

http://www.shuttle.com/new/product/product_b.asp

wway

[draganong]

The "stuttering" movie was 4:3 source, I set the target also as 4:3. I will try the new GOP settings and let you guys know.

Thanks for the suggestions !

/Dragan

[draganong]

I believe that the jerkiness went away with the latest GOP KWAG suggested. I will put it on a DVDRW and test. But I have another question:

Why is the setting in the KWAG template output closed GOPs selected ? I thought that makes the file bigger. Is that because of the different GOP and Qmatrix ? Should this setting be on or off ?

Thanks !

/Dragan

[FoxGarrison]

I've tried some of the kvcd templates with varying results.

I have 2 Sony players, one 3 years old and the other a few months old. The older model plays burnt VCDs only if they are on CD-RWs. The newer model does not care, it will play virtually any format regardless of the medium. Both players will play standard VCDs based on TMPGEnc's standard set of templates.

So, I tried the KVCD templates and on the older model, as I had assumed, it gagged with a "disk error" and "disk is dirty" error. I tried a few others and it didn't like them either. The older model didn't like the templates.

I tried the newer model and it did like the disks but there were all sorts of problems: audio synch problems, jerky playback, etc. The newer model would accept the disks, but playback erratically.

Suffice it to say that I now stick to standards. The only real customization I do is convert everything to 4:3. With 16:9 presentations the original picture is captured as is and I just do the squeeze myself on my Sony Vega.

[kwag]

@draganong,

Closed GOP is currently OFF on all templates. That's the default value. If your's is ON, it's probably because you loaded one of the standard templates which has the value turned on by default.

BTW, last night some templates were updated (other will be updated today) with the new GOP and the new KVCD "Notch" Q. matrix. Check this thread: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2305
Information on what the new KVCD "Notch" matrix is and why it was developed can be found here in this huge thread: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2073

-kwag