which cpu: AMD or P-III?

[tuan711]

PS: The same AVI clip (5min16sec) took less than 4min20sec using CCE_SP2.5. Output format is 720x480 Mpeg2 DVD program stream. Results base on Dual P3 700MHz.

[Sefy]

Dual CPU's are very tempting, and i'll propably buy myself one eventually, but not at the moment, i'm quite happy with my Thunderbird 1ghz, works great, no crashes, no hanging, just play raw power

[ultrabrutal]

wait one month and go get a Athlon 4. It has all you could ever ask for. Don't ever get a P4 as Intel is ripping customers off with their poor effort. P4 will be their ruin as P3 is a better CPU.
Athlon 4 is faster than P3 and P4, and it costs less.
I cannot remember one single problem in any AMD cpu. But I can give you examples of both Cyrix and Intel having errors.
Problems in the past with AMD systems was the motherboards and their incompatibilities with other hardware.
Nowadays only a fool buys intel.

I say: Intel Inside? Idiot outside!

[vitualis]

Please stick to facts.

There is no evidence that the Athlon4 is faster than the P4 simply because it isn't out yet for desktops.

Also, the Athlon 4 isn't in the same league of chips as the P4. The Athlon 4 is simply a faster Thunderbird (i.e., same class of chips as P3).

Regards.

[Sefy]

I won't say Intel P3/P4 are bad CPU's, maybe they are for what they were designed for, unfortunatly, humans were not designed to use them yet, as their cost is still out of reach for those who might want to buy them, AMD gives the same performance those CPU's were supposed to give, but for TODAY's applications, and since Tommorow is another day, i'd like to enjoy my current day, cause I might not live to see tommorow.
Besides, we all know Intel, and they WILL change a new socket/slot for their next CPU, they have done it with each and every CPU so far, so why pay a bocket full of money for technology you will propably have no current use, and by the time you do have any use for it, something better will of course come along and your CPU speed will look ridicules and pathetic, and you've spend ALOT of money on it, and got nothing for it.
ON the other hand, buy AMD, you get to enjoy the speed you paid for in TODAY'S applications and since the CPU price is already low, you don't lose HALF the price of the CPU about 2 days after you bought it! there is a major diffrence between a CPU losing 20$ of the price, and one that loses 50% of the price, which is usually over 100$ diffrence!

[xzarkad]

I do absolutely agree with Sefy's statement.
Since AMD itroduced the Athlon/Duron series the prizes dropped fast and the performance increased. (thanks to AMD, not to Intell)
Since AMD supports DDR-RAM, every-one (well most of us) can upgrade to a high-end pc. For the prize of a Pentium-4 and Rambus memory, I can buy a complete AMD driven computer (with hard drive and Geforce Card), and still get the same performance.
Intell has dominated the market (and the prizes) much too long.
I also hope that more programs will be developed to run under Linux, because I hope that also the domination of Microsoft (just like Intell) will come to an end.

[Tommy]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-14 20:13:50, vitualis wrote:
Please stick to facts.

There is no evidence that the Athlon4 is faster than the P4 simply because it isn't out yet for desktops.

Also, the Athlon 4 isn't in the same league of chips as the P4. The Athlon 4 is simply a faster Thunderbird (i.e., same class of chips as P3).

Regards.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Question: If an Athlon 4 is simply a faster thounderbird which you indicate to be in the same class as a p3, why is it that current Athlons (at a lower clock speed) match and often times beat a P4 at a higher clock speed? If the P4 is a more advanced processor shouldn't it always win against a Athlon or at least do much better?

[Sefy]

I won't answer for vitualis as i'm sure he has his reasons for saying what he said, but i'd like to comment on the fact that if Athlon 4 is "just" a faster Thunderbird, you can say the same for every new CPU, that P2 is just a faster Pentium, and P3 is just a faster P2, and P4 is just a faster P3, even if each CPU has it's own individual small changes, each is "just" an improvment on what was before it, and same goes for AMD, Athlon is an improved Duron, and T-bird is an improved Athlon, and Athlon 4 is an improved T-bird, but unlike Intel with all their improvment which keep forcing you to change everything, the Athlon 4 will work on current Socket A mainboards, and therefor saving you alot of money in upgrades, mainboards will require however a BIOS update to support the new CPU features.
And xzarkad, thanks for the vote of confidence, and i'm also quite sure that as soon as Microsoft will release XP we will be hearing the end of them, as I doubt that users will enjoy very much the new Copy Protection and the idiotic methods of contacting Microsoft to approve the installation of XP on your new system and doing so each time you upgrade even though you already bought it, i'm quite sure it will be the nail in Microsoft's coufin.

[Freddie100]

If your into video capturing go with the intel P4. I have two 1.4G AMD's with different motherboard chipsets and just aquired a P4 with an Abit motherboard. Early results indicate the P$ is better for video processing. No more dropped frames in capturing. Even the capture card manuf warn about using AMD's for this. I like AMD's for everything else.

[mik]

Without SSE instructions there isnt all that much overly powerful about the P4.... if programs arent optimized for the processor... the only real 'advantage' there is the increased memory bandwith of RDRAM... i just dont think its worth the price. In most cases the Athlon can hold its own easily VS a P4... plus the athlon is much cheaper and a better all around processor. Thats why I think theyre better.... Also... Athlon4 will be able to USE SSE instructions... and that will only leave SSE2 as the only thing the Athlon is lacking.... since newer chipsets are taking advantage of the DDR memory bandwith (See: the dual chanel (128bit) DDR interface on the NForce).
Check out http://www.emulators.com/pentium4.htm for the skinny on the P4 and its problems

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mik on 2001-07-16 19:21:44 ]</font>

[WMike]

I am far from an expert. Just a schmooo out here trying to make some movies.

I have a 1 ghz PIII and just got an AMD 1.2 ghz. I think it's a Thunderbird. The processing times on the AMD are significantly faster, but that could also just be the difference in speeds of the two processors. But I've also noticed that I have many more crashes on the Intel machine than the AMD machine. The AMD machine is my general computer, including video stuff, while the PIII is strictly for video 24/7. I'm not unhappy with either system, but, completely anecdotally, the AMD seems less buggy and gives very fast, reliable performance.

FWIW
Good luck
Mike

[vitualis]

Arghh!!!!

People keep misunderstanding what I'm trying to say...

To all those AMD supporters: I TOTALLY agree that if you want a new PC NOW, that possibly has the BEST performance on current software and is value for money, the Athlon Thunderbird is THE WAY TO GO. I DO NOT disagree with this!!

However, what I'm trying to say is that you CANNOT simply dismiss the P4 on it's relatively poor showing NOW. With the SSE2 optimisated software, the P4 is WAY ahead of the Athlon. Comparing the P4 with the Athlon on NON-OPTIMISED software is like comparing the PII with the Pentium classic on non-MMX software.

As history has shown and will undoubted repeat itself, software designers WILL include new Intel optimisations in their new software (what software of note is not optimised for MMX?) Thus, if you are thinking long-term, the P4 class of chips (not necessarily the CURRENT P4s) is the way of the future.

The Athlon4 DOES NOT have SSE2 instructions but is supposed to fully support SSE (that is, it will fully support those instructions on the PIII). It has a few other neat features too, but it is not really an architectural overhaul from the Athlon Thunderbird.

As an analogy (i.e., this is only an instructive example, don't take it too far), from Athlon Thunderbird --> Athlon4 is similar to Pentium classic --> Pentium MMX.

From P3 --> P4, it is similar to Pentium classic --> Pentium Pro.

Regards.

[valzuniga]

who gives a crap? just be glad you can afford a new cpu and mobo. Buy the fastest you can get with your money, and buy something that you can upgrade down the road. If that's AMD, cool, if it Intel, there's nothing wrong with that either. Hope you like whatever you get! Happy encoding!

[FilComArt]

I fully agree with vitualis, that Pentium4 have a great future, because these processors have SSE2 instructions.

BUT Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) has licence's agreement with INTEL. THIS AGREEMENT ALLOWS TO USE SSE2 instructions IN THE NEXT GENERATION’S PROCESSORS.

As we know Polomino will include SSE instructions, but may be NEXT SocketA PROCESSORS (Barton or Thoroughbred) WILL USE SSE2 (than software will optimised).

So AMD is the best choice NOW, and may be in the future!
BUT CAREFULLY CHOOSE MOTHERBOARD!!! (I suggest on AMD760 chipset based motherboards.)
________________________
Sorry for my English.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: FilComArt on 2001-07-17 01:44:04 ]</font>

[Sefy]

I Agree with vitualis on almost any point, but just like FilComArt said, that AMD and Intel have an agreement which allows AMD to include SSE and SSE2 in their next CPU's, and according to some places on the web you would know that the Athlon4 should have come out with SSE2 instructions, for what reason they did not include them i'll only presume to reduce the cost of the CPU, but i'm quite sure it will be added if it will be seen as neccesry into the next CPU, which means that when you buy a Socket A now, you will be very much upgradable in the future, and who is to say Intel isn't gonna change the socket design on their next P4 ? AMD has already commited for using the same Socket A for 2 to 3 more years! that's upgradability.

[incognito]

I'm always quite surprised, when reading these forums, just
how enamored so many of us are or the Penium 4.
While it's an interesting architecture, and intel has done
an especially good job at keeping memory latencies low,
there's just very little that makes it a compelling solution for video processing (which is the application set
that I think most of us care about).

It's a very expensive solution: not just the processor, but
the motherboard and RAM also serve to create a very large
cost delta vs a P3 or K7 system.

Like many intel solutions, it seems to be a dead end as far
as upgradability is concerned. Newer P4 processors will
use a different socket than the 1.4-1.7Ghz variety.
For that matter, not so many motherboards made for the P3
are compatible with newer (>1.2 Ghz) P3 processors.
I think it may be that intel makes a little too much of its
profits from sales of motherboard chipset sales-- or that
may be just the cynic in me.

Also, there is no smp option for the P4, other than
the "Xeon" version, which makes the regular version look quite cheap. I know that not all of us are in love with dual processor set-ups here, but they can be a good choice depending on how much of this stuff you like to do (and for most of us, that's a lot!).

Finally, the performance is almost-but-not-quite-there. There are many cases where the P4 edges out the Athlon, but only in very few circumstances does the Athlon get trounced in a benchmark showdown. For that matter, the P3 often makes a good showing as well. When Alberto Vigata posts that he's recompiling with P4 optimizations, that could change. On the other hand, Flask it pretty well optimized for both SSE and 3dNow...

[Sefy]

Unfortunatly for all of us, what makes a CPU look good is only one thing, how lazy the programmer is, or which side the programmer has taken, if we are talking about a programmer that prefers one over the other, then whatever they has chosen will make that certain CPU look much better then the other, but only because it was optimized for it, which forces the rest of us to use that CPU if we want better performance, if programmers took their time to optimize their code for both CPU's, then, and only then we can see a competitive benchmark and say who is better, but untill that happens, we are all at the mercy of the programmer.

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-17 04:17:11, incognito wrote:
Also, there is no smp option for the P4, other than
the "Xeon" version, which makes the regular version look quite cheap. I know that not all of us are in love with dual processor set-ups here, but they can be a good choice depending on how much of this stuff you like to do (and for most of us, that's a lot!).</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

True. But there's no SMP for the Athlon either, and probably never will be for the existing CPUs.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>When Alberto Vigata posts that he's recompiling with P4 optimizations, that could change. On the other hand, Flask it pretty well optimized for both SSE and 3dNow...</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that there were SSE2 optimisations for FlaskMPEG already.

Regards.

[incognito]

I stand corrected: there is indeed an sse2.idct.flask module
in the latest release-- and in fact, the results seem to be
quite impressive. Compelling enough to recommend?

Possibly. A 20% speed increase is nothing to sneeze at.
There's still the $150-$350 US price difference vs a high-
end Athlon system to consider-- nearly 2x the cost if
you're only replacing motherboars, cp , and ram. The fact
that intel is moving the p4 from 423 pin socket to a 478
pin one in the imediate future also remains. Very
discouraging unless you plan to change your entire
system at once every time you upgrade anyway.

[Sefy]

Very interesting, so who ever was "smart" enough to buy an Intel Pentium 4 now, won't even be able to put future P4 chips on the same system that costs them a fortune already ??? talk about thinking of the future, and room for growth huh

[vitualis]

I'd have to agree with you there Sefy. Intel's pretty consumer unfriendly at times... but they historically have pretty much always done this for a new line of processors (first Pentium classics, PIIs, etc.)

Regards.

[taco]

If you buy a P4 today your out of luck as far as future upgrades go. The current P4 will be replaced by the Socket478 and a new .13 micron version of the P4 in November and the new chip will not work in the old P4 motherboards. Buying a motherboard for a chip thats gonna die in 4 months doesn't make much sense. In other words if you want to bay a P4 wait till November or December don'y buy one now.

[Sefy]

I can't believe Intel is going to be that stupid! I was atleast giving them the credit that newer P4's will work on current P4's, but if that's what they are gonna do, it's no wonder the P4 sales are only dropping, it may be a great CPU on the paper, but if any of you read the article that mik posted, you will see it's only a great CPU on paper alone! my Socket A board has already lasted me from Duron 600 to 700 to 850 and now to a T-Bird 1000, and my board's official supports goes to 1400, so i'm clear more then any P2/P3 so far at much less cost, and for all those who claim they have a P3 at speed beyond 1ghz, I want to see proof, cause I have not seen anything on Intel's website so far regarding a faster P3.

[techno]

well! I've read all the replies and all arguments accepted I personally would go out now and buy a PIII 1Ghz for three reasons 1)their as cheap as hell now. 2)The PIII is rock solid and dependable and finally 3) Never ever wait for the next version of anything and never buy an early version of anything new. Thats my advice take it or leave it

Best Regards

[LighthouseJ]

I think the each one is better than the other in different categories. I forgot the exact line that was drawn, but for my next PC, I'm going to try an SMP AMD setup, see what that's like.

[Sefy]

Latest news from a daily report that comes to my email, Intel OFFICIALY reports a 94% DROP in income sales in ONE year in their CPU department, and they are YET again dropping their prices! for all you 200 people who still buy Intel, Intel ows her thanks to you, cause you are the only ones keeping them on their feet, keep spending your millions for them! Intel Thanks You!

[next]

I posted this in another thread but it may apply here as well. I watched UBID auction off 211 Athlon 1.2's last night. I believe the lowest winning bid was $89. Amazing considering it was a retail box that included the heatsink and fan. With shipping that's less than $100. If price is any concern the Athlon offers alot of bang for the buck.

[incognito]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-18 03:10:28, Sefy wrote:
I can't believe Intel is going to be that stupid! I was atleast giving them the credit that newer P4's will work on current P4's, but if that's what they are gonna do, it's no wonder the P4 sales are only dropping, it may be a great CPU on the paper, but if any of you read the article that mik posted, you will see it's only a great CPU on paper alone! my Socket A board has already lasted me from Duron 600 to 700 to 850 and now to a T-Bird 1000, and my board's official supports goes to 1400, so i'm clear more then any P2/P3 so far at much less cost, and for all those who claim they have a P3 at speed beyond 1ghz, I want to see proof, cause I have not seen anything on Intel's website so far regarding a faster P3.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Intel is not exactly stupid, they are just not concerned
with that relatively small segment of consumers that are
willing to crack open their case and upgrade components.
I think it's fair to say that (although this doesn't apply
to most of us posting and reading these forums) most people
upgrade theyr computer by calling up Dell or IBM and
ordering a new one.

Also, Intel makes quite a bit of money from sales of
motherboard chipsets-- so if they can encourage us to
upgrade our motherboards every so often, that's a good
thing for their bottom line.

There are new P3's comming off the line that are rated
higher than 1Ghz. They come in the same socket 370
form factor but have different voltage requirements than
older PIII models. Also, the new PIIIs are not capable
of working in SMP mode.

[Sefy]

incognito, do you mind providing with a link for a P3 CPU higher then 1ghz ? I have tried looking it up, and couldn't find any information, not on Intel's page, or on Web Shopping search engines.

As for Intel being smart, I doubt it, because currently they are losing money on anything that has to do with P4, and that includes Mainboards and RDRAM and the CPU's, and with their advertisements like "Future Proof" and "Room for Growth", they are kinda backstabing their own costumers by changing the socket for the P4 when the little few who did buy are gonna get screwed for it.

[mik]

For the guy that said athlons dont have SMP is wrong... socket A athlons run fine in an SMP motherboard even if theyre not 'officially supported' by AMD... and the AthlonMP runs in MP and is still a hell of alot less than a XEON. Because theyre the same socket Tbirds also do SMP

P4 and P4-Xeon have a different socket (423 now, 478 soon, VS 603)