135 min on 1vcd?

[NEO14]

Hi,
I am trying to fit Princess Mononoke onto 1 vcd. It is 135 min long and I am encoding with the kvcd LBR template. It is supposed to fit up to 180 min on one vcd, but smallest file I have been able to produce is 1.3G. Help me!

[kwag]

Hi,
I am trying to fit Princess Mononoke onto 1 vcd. It is 135 min long and I am encoding with the kvcd LBR template. It is supposed to fit up to 180 min on one vcd, but smallest file I have been able to produce is 1.3G. Help me!

You must use file size prediction. Read Q-9 here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68

-kwag

[tonyp12]

Nearly two and half hours on one CD?
I think 90minutes of video is pushing it.


You would need to use these numbers or even lower.

Use a 2pass VBR with an average settings of 700 kbits/sec video bitrate.

Use 128 kbits/sec for the audio

Motion search: high

The result will still be pretty crappy.

[SansGrip]

I think 90minutes of video [on one CD] is pushing it.

Yesterday I put a 95-minute movie on one 80-minute CD at 704x480 and it's close enough quality to the original that DVD-player-owning viewers thought they were watching a DVD.

Bear in mind that we're not just talking lowering the bitrate here. These kinds of results are obtained through custom quantization matrices, finely tuned GOP structures, targeted preprocessing, an Avisynth filter designed specifically for increasing the quality of low-bitrate encodes, custom-written software for accurately predicting encoded file sizes, and above all an enormous amount of testing and tweaking by individuals dedicated to pushing every boundary of the MPEG-1 specification.

Don't knock it 'til you try it .

Regards,
SansGrip

[tonyp12]

DVD-player-owning viewers thought they were watching a DVD.

Any chance you are using a 27-32" elcheapo-brand TV?

On my 56" HDTV Toshiba, anything but true DVD and I can
see the difference.


P.S at a low bitrates going 352x480 (CVD) is better than 704x480

[hwoodwar]

I think most of us are aware the results may not be all that great. I have not tested that template, either. However, in defense of Kwag on his website, he does state "...for portable players and small TV's" so, he does let people know that quality may be sacrificed.

[johneboy]

I think most of us are aware the results may not be all that great. I have not tested that template, either. However, in defense of Kwag on his website, he does state "...for portable players and small TV's" so, he does let people know that quality may be sacrificed.

It seems at least once a week, someone will ask on here if you can fit a full movie on 1 cd.. most will shoot the idea down with results of "poor quality". I honestly think we should let the new guys try it out, and decide for themselves. Everyone will see quality different. When encoding VCDs, I always use the LBR templates, with DVD2SVCD.. It will run thru the file prediction tests to give me the highest CQ setting possible. The quality in my eyes is good. Certainly not DVD quality, then again, neither is standard VCD, or SVCD for that matter. For those of use who dont have $8000 HD TVs, 1 CD movies look fine... at least to me, they rival VHS on my RCA 27" TV.

[energy80s]

I have used Kwag's templates in the past - even got 2hrs 25 mins on a CD-R disc. The quality was pretty poor and it is not very compatible, but it is possible.

Now, I've gone the other way and am only putting about 30 mins of MPEG2 onto a CD-R ... in preparation for a move to DVDR in the next few months. For me, quality and compatibility count for everything!

[kwag]

DVD-player-owning viewers thought they were watching a DVD.

Any chance you are using a 27-32" elcheapo-brand TV?

On my 56" HDTV Toshiba, anything but true DVD and I can
see the difference.


P.S at a low bitrates going 352x480 (CVD) is better than 704x480

Hehe. How about a 32" Samsung HDTV. That's what I have, and I know what I see
Here's a 704x480 sample that is the COMPLETE "Red Planet" movie in a single CD-R using KVCDx2 704x480 PLUS: http://www.kvcd.net/clip3.m1v
Another clip: http://www.kvcd.net/rclip2.m1v
And here's a KVCD LBR 352x240 sample from "The Green Mile" using our new parameters, methods, and findings. This is what the COMPLETE 180 minute movie looks like in ONE CD-R: http://www.kvcd.net/test.m1v
Maybe that makes you change your mind

-kwag

[kwag]

I have used Kwag's templates in the past - even got 2hrs 25 mins on a CD-R disc. The quality was pretty poor and it is not very compatible, but it is possible.

Try it again
Read all the new stuff here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=9 , here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1969

Be prepared for advanced topics and a very long read

-kwag

[tonyp12]

For those of use who dont have $8000 HD

I do not know where you been shopping.

Philips 46" widescreen progressive scan HDTV for $1100
if you value the DVD player and the 5.1 sound system at $300

[SansGrip]

Any chance you are using a 27-32" elcheapo-brand TV?

Nope. It's not an HDTV, but it is a very expensive Samsung 37" model.

P.S at a low bitrates going 352x480 (CVD) is better than 704x480

That's a good resolution for getting very long (e.g. 2 hours+) movies on one disc.

Regards,
SansGrip

[johneboy]

I do not know where you been shopping.

Philips 46" widescreen progressive scan HDTV for $1100
if you value the DVD player and the 5.1 sound system at $300

$8000... $1100
same thing

[SansGrip]

I think most of us are aware the results may not be all that great.

Then most of you are wrong .

I have not tested that template, either.

And here's the key. Read read read on all the latest testing, the new Avisynth filters, the new GOP structures. Try it. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised.

However, in defense of Kwag on his website, he does state "...for portable players and small TV's" so, he does let people know that quality may be sacrificed.

That's only one of the templates, and in my opinion that statement doesn't hold true given the latest advances. Check out the post kwag made with the link to The Green Mile. It was encoded for one CD using the so-called "for portable players" template -- at least I think that's the same one, correct me if I'm wrong kwag -- and it looks every bit as good as a regular VCD, if not better.

[tonyp12]

$8000... $1100
same thing

No, not really.

$1100 over the 5year (minimum) lifespan of the TV
comes only to 60cents a day.

[kwag]

That's only one of the templates, and in my opinion that statement doesn't hold true given the latest advances. Check out the post kwag made with the link to The Green Mile. It was encoded for one CD using the so-called "for portable players" template -- at least I think that's the same one, correct me if I'm wrong kwag -- and it looks every bit as good as a regular VCD, if not better.

You are correct. The sample I posted here is with the latest techniques and made with the LBR and the new GOP. To me, it looks better than many commercial VCDs. It doesn't even look close to the original LBR template ( or should I say the original KVCD MPEG-1 format, that morphs into a XVCD when burned as VCD ) which used another GOP. This is a totally new ball game

-kwag

[NEO14]

I just finished encoding Unbreakable with kvcd LBR with CQ 10. The file is still 1GIG!! What am I doing wrong!! Can someone give me some settings to try? Thanx.

[SansGrip]

I just finished encoding Unbreakable with kvcd LBR with CQ 10. The file is still 1GIG!! What am I doing wrong!! Can someone give me some settings to try? Thanx.

How long is the movie? Are you using file size prediction? Are you using TMPGEnc 2.59?

Regards,
SansGrip

[poopyhead]

Here's a 704x480 sample that is the COMPLETE "Red Planet" movie in a single CD-R using KVCDx2 704x480 PLUS: http://www.kvcd.net/clip3.m1v
Another clip: http://www.kvcd.net/rclip2.m1v
And here's a KVCD LBR 352x240 sample from "The Green Mile" using our new parameters, methods, and findings. This is what the COMPLETE 180 minute movie looks like in ONE CD-R: http://www.kvcd.net/test.m1v
Maybe that makes you change your mind

-kwag

took a look at all 3 clips, kwag. there were HUGE differences between the red planet clips and green mile.

i do have to admit, the red planet ones looked pretty good, considering it's 1 CD-R. BUT, the fuzziness and blockiness is still noticeable. using at least 2 CD-Rs would remove most of those problems. however, it is a pretty short movie (106 min.) and 2.35:1 aspect ratio (or something like that). btw, did you remove any pixels from the top and bottom of the movie. i did a comparison to my rip of the movie from awhile back and it looks like your samples were a little bit squished

however, the green mile clip looked HORRIBLE, considering the clips were of slow scenes with basically no action (unlike red planet). i think there should be a limit on how much you can fit on 1 CD-R w/ your templates and also depends on the aspect ratio of the movie... (i.e. full screen vs. widescreen, etc..) green mile was pretty close to full screen and prolly needs more bitrate with it.

btw...was there supposed to be sound?

[kwag]

Here's a 704x480 sample that is the COMPLETE "Red Planet" movie in a single CD-R using KVCDx2 704x480 PLUS: http://www.kvcd.net/clip3.m1v
Another clip: http://www.kvcd.net/rclip2.m1v
And here's a KVCD LBR 352x240 sample from "The Green Mile" using our new parameters, methods, and findings. This is what the COMPLETE 180 minute movie looks like in ONE CD-R: http://www.kvcd.net/test.m1v
Maybe that makes you change your mind

-kwag

took a look at all 3 clips, kwag. there were HUGE differences between the red planet clips and green mile.

i do have to admit, the red planet ones looked pretty good, considering it's 1 CD-R. BUT, the fuzziness and blockiness is still noticeable. using at least 2 CD-Rs would remove most of those problems. however, it is a pretty short movie (106 min.) and 2.35:1 aspect ratio (or something like that). btw, did you remove any pixels from the top and bottom of the movie. i did a comparison to my rip of the movie from awhile back and it looks like your samples were a little bit squished

however, the green mile clip looked HORRIBLE, considering the clips were of slow scenes with basically no action (unlike red planet). i think there should be a limit on how much you can fit on 1 CD-R w/ your templates and also depends on the aspect ratio of the movie... (i.e. full screen vs. widescreen, etc..) green mile was pretty close to full screen and prolly needs more bitrate with it.

btw...was there supposed to be sound?

Of course there is a huge difference . The "Red Planet" was encoded at 704x480 and "The Green Mile" was encoded at 352x240. If you look carefully at the "Mile" sample, it looks no better than a VCD, but not worse either!. And that's what went into a complete CD. Just like that. I compared that sample to my original commercial "The Matrix" VCD, and they look basically the same. Actually I can see more macroblocks on "The Matrix" VCD. As for "Red Planet", no I didn't cut anything from the movie. You're probably seeing the 2 overscan block resize. In your monitor, it will look smaller, but on your TV, it will be streched to the edges. Normally, your TV would cut off about 16 lines on each side, that you would never see. This way, we encode to (size-overscan blocks) and your TV will expand to the edges. The benefit is higher bitrate/pixel ratio.

Edit:Forgot to add that the samples are soundless.

-kwag

[kwag]

I just finished encoding Unbreakable with kvcd LBR with CQ 10. The file is still 1GIG!! What am I doing wrong!! Can someone give me some settings to try? Thanx.

You're probably encoding from a DivX ??

-kwag

[kwag]

i do have to admit, the red planet ones looked pretty good, considering it's 1 CD-R. BUT, the fuzziness and blockiness is still noticeable. using at least 2 CD-Rs would remove most of those problems. however, it is a pretty short movie (106 min.) and 2.35:1 aspect ratio (or something like that).

Just try to put that movie on a single CD encoded as SVCD and see what you're going to get. I grant you the result won't be very pleasing. However, with the current parameters we are using right now on KVCDs, I guarantee that you'll put ANY 2 hour movie on 2 CDs at 704x480, and you won't be able to tell the difference from the original DVD. 106 minutes is not that short. 1 hour and 46 minutes is not that far from 2 hours

-kwag

[poopyhead]

Just try to put that movie on a single CD encoded as SVCD and see what you're going to get. I grant you the result won't be very pleasing. However, with the current parameters we are using right now on KVCDs, I guarantee that you'll put ANY 2 hour movie on 2 CDs at 704x480, and you won't be able to tell the difference from the original DVD. 106 minutes is not that short. 1 hour and 46 minutes is not that far from 2 hours

-kwag

of course i can't compare...it's apples and oranges....mpeg-2 SVCDs were meant for higher bitrates (preferably >2 mbit/s).

also, i'm not sure ANY 2 hr movie...full screen movies cover the entire screen, so each pixel will get even less bitrate....dunno how you can still fit on 1 CD-R without making the quality much worse.

[kwag]

also, i'm not sure ANY 2 hr movie...full screen movies cover the entire screen, so each pixel will get even less bitrate....dunno how you can still fit on 1 CD-R without making the quality much worse.

I said ANY 2 hour movie on TWO CDs. Not one. I've always emphasized that you get more play time on each CD if your source is "Wide Screen". For "Full Screen" the quality will be lower. Anyway, with the new techniques, even a two hour "Full Screen" movie encoded for two CDs will be almost undistinguisheable from the original. That is if the original is high quality. And I can't even say DVD source anymore, because I've seen some DVDs on my HDTV that are very crappy. So a lot of DVD mastering done these days is real bullcrap.

-kwag

[tonyp12]

Kwag seems to really belive in his templetes.

And I admire his energy to defend his "product".

But in 6 Months when DVD burners will cost $99-$149*
Who will use CDR?

The online movie trading scene will use Divx.

And if their dvd player does not play divx,
they will re-encode at 6000 kbits/sec CBR
Motion Search: estimate(fast)
for a quick re-encode that will look as
good as the divx source did.


* estimate, the lowest priced DVD-R burner seen so far: $169

[johneboy]

But in 6 Months when DVD burners will cost $99-$149*
Who will use CDR?

me!

i have a DVD burner
and i still burn VCDs

CDRs are and always will be cheaper then DVD(-+)Rs

so if i am happy with the quality of a movie on one CD. Why would i burn the movie onto a DVD, which would cost more, and take more time (burning that is)

[kwag]

But in 6 Months when DVD burners will cost $99-$149*
Who will use CDR?

me!

i have a DVD burner
and i still burn VCDs

CDRs are and always will be cheaper then DVD(-+)Rs

so if i am happy with the quality of a movie on one CD. Why would i burn the movie onto a DVD, which would cost more, and take more time (burning that is)

Ditto

And if I'm not happy with the quality for one CD, I'll use 2 CD's and accomplish the same quality as a DVD. And when the time really comes to start using DVD-Rs because of prices on DVD-R media are ridiculous, then I'll use KDVD Full D-1 and put 4+ hours on a DVD-R or 8+ hours using KDVD Half D-1, while everyone else puts 2 hours with regular encoding techniques 8)

-kwag

[tonyp12]

$1.60 for 2.4X DVD+R that will burn 4.37GB in under 20 minutes.

If the movie is worth keeping, spend it.

A few DVD+RW if you want to keep it just for awhile.


In 6months DVD+R disc will probably be $1 each.

[SansGrip]

Kwag seems to really belive in his templetes.

It's not only kwag that believes in them .

But in 6 Months when DVD burners will cost $99-$149*
Who will use CDR?

I admire your optimism. I'm assuming you're quoting US dollars, but here in Canada right now I've yet to see one go for less than CDN$550, and discs are still upwards of CDN$15-20 each.

Of course, one day we'll all be burning DVD-Rs and VCDs will be but a memory. Until then I'm going to keep pushing the envelope to see just what MPEG-1 can achieve using today's hardware. And when I do get a DVD burner, I'll see just how many movies I can fit on a single disc...

Perhaps what some people (not necessarily yourself) don't realize is that this is as much a game, a sport, a challenge, as it is anything else. I don't really have anything to prove by doing this. It doesn't give me bragging rights, nor make me superior to those who'd rather jack up the bitrate for the highest possible quality.

For sure, if I was encoding something very precious to me (such as my honeymoon, er, wedding video ) I wouldn't use one of these templates. And you're right: these encodes are still no substitute for a DVD when you consider the 5.1 sound and all the extras.

I and many other people do this for the intellectual challenge and the buzz we get from doing what so many claim is "impossible". That's all. It's really not worth everyone getting so worked up about.

The online movie trading scene will use Divx.

Not so sure about that: XViD is becoming extremely popular. But yes, MPEG-4 is where it's at as far as online goes. But that's another issue .

Regards,
SansGrip

[johneboy]

$1.60 for 2.4X DVD+R that will burn 4.37GB in under 20 minutes.

$0.20 for 32x CDR that will burn completely on a 16x (hardly the fastest CD burner) in 7 minutes.

If the movie is worth keeping, spend it.

Since these are SUPPOSED to be for backing up the DVDs YOU own.. You will be keeping it.. The original.. Unless yours just disappear?

In 6months DVD+R disc will probably be $1 each.

at $0.20 a piece for CDRs, how much you spoze they will cost in 6 months?