Highest possible SVCD Quality

[KidCisco]

Hi,

Im new to all this. All I want to do (for now) is put my selfmade DV films on SVCDs in the highest possible quality.

After reading many articles and forums I went out and bought a
Sony DV camera, a Raptor video capturing card (which included Premiere 6.0) and the Cinema Craft encoder. I'm using Windows XP Prof. on a P4 2.8 GHz system.

I did the following steps:

1. Capture and edit my video with Premiere 6.0 and save as Microsoft AVI
2. Use AVI2SVCD with the following parameters:

Video Encoding Mode - Multipass VBR - 4 passes
Image Quality priority - 5
Max bitrate - 2530, Min - 300, Max avg - 2330
otherwise default values.

3. Burn the CUE/BIN file via Nero on a CDR.

4. Play the CD on a DVD Player

The image quality is good (I feel it could be better though when compared to the original AVI) but movements within the video are very jerky.

Questions:

A. Is this the right method to make the highest quality SVCD? Should I be using other programs or parameters?

B. Why are movements within the video so jerky?


I appreciate any help!!!

Thanks!

Kid

[bugster]

Possible reasons for the 'jerky' movement are use of wrong field order when encoding. I am not V. familiar with CCE so can't tell you where to change it but am sure somebody else will be able to.

Your bitrates are about as high as you can go and still be SVCD compliant so you can't do much there except maybe try 2520 CBR.

Home made footage is notoriously difficult to encode to mpeg due to the use of handheld cameras. The resulting camera shake eats up bitrate resulting in a lower quality picture than the pros can achieve. You might want to consider investing in a DVD burner which will allow you to encode at much higher bitrates. Just a thought.

You are using too high bitrate, try to not use any higher then 2490 (depends on your DVD Player), otherwise the movie became jerky.
I have found that my Pioneer DV-343 give the best result when the bitrate are set to 2350, even as low as 2000 give a good result if the orginal avi have good quality.

[KidCisco]

Thanks very much for your input.

I forgot to mention that I have a 100 Hz television. Could this cause the "jerky" problems?

I tried TMPGEnc and found a parameter "Encode mode" which I set to interlace. The jerky movements disappeared completely! Is this setting ok to use (default is non-interlace)?

For the best quality SVCD should I set the "rate control mode" to constant quality (CQ)? In the advanced tab I have Quality - 100, max bitrate - 2530, min bitrate - 300, padding enabled.
Further I have "motion search precision" set to high quality, Audio stream
setting to MPEG I Audio Layer 2 - 41100 - 384 kbits.

Thanks for your support!

Kid

[Crystal Symo]

No, the 100hz tv doesn't create problems.

I had the some problems as you have, but when I well understood how to use CCE ... they're gone

1- Don't audio encode with CCE ... it's not very good. Use TMPGENC or BESWEET. For me the bitrate you use is too high. You could use a bitrate as 128 kbs joint stereo instead of 384 (so you can increase 256 kbs the video bitrate).

2- In VIDEO settings, there's an option: UPPER FIELD FIRST. If checked it means that the first field will be player first. So if your original movie has the second field as first, you will have troubles with moviment scenes. I found that when I capture from TV, this option MUST BE UNCHECKED and the moviment are natural, as they are when watchin tv. You just make some tests with small clips. Try checked and unchecked and burn to CDRW and play it.

3- If your source is interlaced, UNCHECK progressive frames

4- Another point is that in QUALITY SETTINGS: Image quality priority, I always use 20 as default. Doing so, moviments are better encoded than to level 3. Too low settings, will encode greatly only still scenes, but moviment scenes will be encoded worse.

[DJRumpy]

A couple of things:

CAM sources are always interlaced. Set your TMPGenc settings accordingling.

Do not use TMPGenc to encode audio, UNLESS you have selected a 3rd party app in your OPTIONS | ENVIRONMENTAL SETTINGS. TMPGenc does a poor job. You can select various encoders, but I'd suggest TooLame for MP2 encoding, and SSRC for Sample Frequency. You can find it in the TOOLS section to the left.

[Nelson37]

The fact that deinterlacing removes jerkiness points to field order reversal.

I cannot stress enough the importance of using a tripod for home video. It is well worth the hassle of carrying it around, with practice setup is 30 seconds. GET ONE.

[DJRumpy]

I tried TMPGEnc and found a parameter "Encode mode" which I set to interlace. The jerky movements disappeared completely! Is this setting ok to use (default is non-interlace)?

KidCisco didn't deinterlace, but rather left the source interlaced. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will ), but setting your source as Interlaced, assuming it's 29.97 fps, will essentially tell TMPGenc to leave your source as is in the output.

[hoola_loop]

hi i notice you use cce. what version? i used to use tmpgenc and all my material was top field first so when i started using the .64 version of cce i ticked the top field first box as i normaly would..WRONG. for some reason in this version and i think the higher ones too .64 and above this option is reversed. so i untick the box and get no more jumpy picture.

and i know this has been debated but if your using .64 version or above i think it is ok to encode audio with cce i always get good results. but that just my opinion. to someone else it may sound horrid but it sound clear with no humm or fuzz at all. peace and cheesecake

[DJRumpy]

CCE SP 2.64.01.10

I always work with my audio seperately. The few times I did use CCE, the sound was acceptable, but sounded tinny to my ears on the audio I had to resample. The audio that went straight through with no resample sounded fine. Quality is so subjective anyway 8) . I usually extract my audio from the source first thing, and don't put it back until I'm ready to author, so I just don't utilize the audio options in CCE much.

That reminds me..I guess I should update the profile...hardware's been upgraded.

[hoola_loop]

yes i should have gave the whole ball of wax as they say also. even though i do use cce audio for tons of stuff *sitcoms *sports and *kids shows which are the things i normals work with.... i dont use it when working with movies that you want the highest of quality with. aka *starwars anything *LOTR *Xmen you get my drift but IMO movies with not alot of sound effects and backgrond sound you need to hear clearly i tend to just let pass through cce and dont bother with the extra effort. one movie comes to mind when i think of an audio stream that was a pain in the neck to reach my specs as far as quality goes. *we were soldiers* i had more trouble with this movies audio than anything else. (ever)

but hey lets face it the kiddies cant tell if barney has been ran through cce or a garbage disposal lol i wish i were this easy to satisfy and happy with all my results. :P

[KidCisco]

Hi!

Thanks for your replies. They are helping me alot! This video stuff is pretty complicated...

What settings are best if I want minimal loss (better none) when converting AVI to MPEG2 using TMPGnc? The conversion should change the original material as little as possible.

Should I use the rate control mode "Constant quality (CQ)", Quality 100% and set my max./min. bitrate to 2530? I have my audio set at 44100/192 kbits.

Thanks for your help.

Kid

[bugster]

Hi!

Should I use the rate control mode "Constant quality (CQ)", Quality 100% and set my max./min. bitrate to 2530? I have my audio set at 44100/192 kbits.

Thanks for your help.

Kid

Questions like this have been know to start long periods of war on this forum

What is best is what you find best.


My opinions (for what they are worth)

CQ mode does give excellt quality results but filesizes are difficult to predict.

CBR gives very predictable filesizes and gives excellent quality also espcially at higher bitrates, but also wastes space so you get shorter videos per CD.

2-pass VBR gives quality as good as (if not even better than) CQ or CBR but with the advantage of predictable filesizes. The main disadvantage being the encode time is doubled.

[hoola_loop]

i have to agree with all that. and see that you want quality instead of quantity i am thinking encoding time isnt an issue, which it shouldnt be. most inportantly HAVE FUN dont get discouraged if the first run dont come out good hehe dont throw that unwatchable burn accross the room, keep it so you can look back and say, "Dang i sucked arse in the beginning."

peace and cheesecake

[sterno]

Should I use the rate control mode "Constant quality (CQ)", Quality 100% and set my max./min. bitrate to 2530? I have my audio set at 44100/192 kbits.

Using CQ at 100 with max and min set the same is essentially the same as doing CBR, except that it'll take longer to encode.

[KidCisco]

I don't care about the created file size and time isn't a problem (its running on a second machine with a P4/2.8 GHz).

My test AVI is 92 MB. When I convert to MPEG2 the MPG2 file is around 8-9 MB depending on the parameters I set in TMPGnc. Alot of Information is "gone". Can't I just rename the AVI file in MPG... ok, just a joke.
I'm just not fully satisfied with the result. The picture lacks sharpness...
Will creating my AVIs to DVD give better results?

Kid

[bugster]

From DV source the DVD standard video should certainly give better results than SVCD. Resolution is the same as DV (720*480/576) and the allowable bitrate is much higher leading to generally higher quality results. Of course the filesize is much larger, but you say you don't care about that. It is unlikely though that you will be able to play these from a CD (known as mini DVD) so you will need a DVD burner.

[DJRumpy]

If your having a problem with bitnoise, you might be better suited trying CVD (352x480), rather than SVCD (480x480). This is also true if you later plan to move these movies to DVD, as SVCD is not resolution compatible with DVD. Of course full DVD resolutions would be best, but I'm guessing you don't have a DVD burner.

From the sounds of your original post though, bitnoise/shortage wasn't the problem, but rather jerky video. Try changing your field order setting in TMPGenc, as that can cause jerky video. Make sure your source is set to Interlaced, and avoid any of the 'click' filters under the ADVANCED section (see below).

Here's a down and dirty list of what I would suggest you use in TMPGenc. Just remember, as bugster said, you get what you pay for, and my advice is free

{Settings Button}

VIDEO Tab:
Use 2-Pass VBR. This will maximize bit allocation, and motion/scene detection. Your min, avg, and max settings are fine, althoug I would use 0 for Minimum first, unless you have a problem with that setting (every bit counts!)
Use the best motion search. This will take longer, and some here will say the extra time isn't worth it, but the setting is there for a reason. If your going for maximum quality, then use it.

ADVANCED tab:

Video Source: Interlaced
Field Order: (Try the oposite of what you have here to fix jerky video)
Leave all the other filters unchecked.

GOP STRUCTURE tab:

Detect Scene Change: On
Click the STANDARD button
All other options off

QUANTIZE MATRIX tab:

I use MPEG STANDARD
NO other options should be checked here, especially not Soften Block Noise, or No Motion Search.

[KidCisco]

Hey, thanks for your advice everyone!

I'm going to try out those parameters this weekend and give you feedback on the results.

I don't have a DVD burner yet but I'm seriously thinking about getting
one (my wife is going to kill me...)

[BJ_M]

DV is ALWAYS bottom field first -- there is no trial and error required

de-interlacing DV , when final output will be TV , will cause the picture to become less sharp .. (unless you shot it on one of the nice 24p panasonic DV camera's)

[DJRumpy]

KidCisco: Per BJ, set the Field Order setting on the Advanced Tab to "Bottom Field First (field B)". You shouldn't have any need to deinterlace, unless you plan to view these on a PC. If these are intended for TV viewing only, don't bother with the extra hastle.