Whats a good capture program to obtain a 480x480 capture?

[Super Warrior]

I hear 480x480 is the best capture size for Mpeg-2.So what is a good capture program that would allow me to capture at that size?

I have PowerVCR 2 and while its a good program.It dos'ent allow 480x480,the best it can do is 640x480.This also hurts whenever i'm trying to burn a capture onto a SVCD with nero,since it is'nt up to the standard 480x480 Mpeg-2 specs and sometimes it won't work.

Got any better programs out there?

[fmctm1sw]

I hear 480x480 is the best capture size for Mpeg-2.

That's debatable. Let me look over both of my shoulders before I give you my opinion. Actually, we'll skip my opinion.... I use virtualvcr with the driver at btwincap.sourceforge.net and I cap at 480x480.

[Super Warrior]

I hear 480x480 is the best capture size for Mpeg-2.

That's debatable. Let me look over both of my shoulders before I give you my opinion. Actually, we'll skip my opinion.... I use virtualvcr with the driver at btwincap.sourceforge.net and I cap at 480x480.

Well it hear 480x480 is pretty good and i'm pretty sure its the official capture size Mpeg-2 was meant for.Besides i've done lots of testing and have determined that if the video size is not 480x480,it will NOT play at all when burned to a SVCD with nero.

[Super Warrior]

I hear 480x480 is the best capture size for Mpeg-2.

That's debatable. Let me look over both of my shoulders before I give you my opinion. Actually, we'll skip my opinion.... I use virtualvcr with the driver at btwincap.sourceforge.net and I cap at 480x480.

Wait a second virtualVCR only records in AVI? Thats not good,wanted something that records in Mpeg-2.

[fmctm1sw]

So what is a good capture program that would allow me to capture at that size?

Sorry, that's all I read.... See if there is anything else under the "tools" section over there on the left....

[Nelson37]

There is NO specific capture size that is best for MPEG-2. 480x480 is the TARGET resolution for SVCD.

Generally it is best to cap at whatever resolution your source is, then resize down (never up) to the target res.

[Fozzee]

If u want to achieve better results with PowerVCR then.....

Capture at a higher resolution and bitrate..

e.g. 640 x 480 at a high bitrate if you using NTSC or 720x 576 if you are using Pal .

Then encode to SVCD using an encoder (like TMPGEnc or alike).

This will get u better results.

Fozzee

[Bradskey]

Yes, 480x480 is your MPEG-2 target only if you want to make SVCD. Intervideo's WinDVR is equivalent to PowerVCR II and it can capture directly to 480x480 MPEG-2. However, as was mentioned already, you will find that direct capture to 480x480 at SVCD bitrate is usually inferior to capturing at hi-res (640x480 or higher) and high bitrate (6 to 10 Mbps) and then doing an offline encode to 480x480 MPEG-2 using TMPGEnc or whatever you use. As for PowerVCR II, I really like the program -- I like it better than WinDVR, BUT, I myself and several other people have had serious problems taking the MPEG files it captures and re-encoding them. If the problem occurs on your system you will almost always experience gradual audio de-sync with files re-encoded from PowerVCR files, and there doesn't seem to be any satisfactory way to correct it. Don't hold me to this, but I think it has something to do with some type of variable framerate in the PowerVCR MPEG output files. This has been discussed extensively on the Vidomi forums and elsewhere. I found all kinds of tips and suggestions and tried all kinds of crap and NOTHING would correct it. If PowerVCR output works well for you then congratulations! I found WinDVR has the same capabilities and the output files cause no audio sync problems when re-encoded, and others have found this to be the case also.

[macleod]

If you want to use powervcrII to capture at 480 x 480, you can tweek the registry to do this. Do a search for powervcrII or click on my name and see all the posts that I have done. (also, in the same tweek that you will find is a way to capture over 650 meg without splitting the file)

480x480 is not the best resultion to capture at (do I hear a can of worms opening ). From your post, it sounds like you are new to the world of capturing. I would do some searches on the word powervcr II and see what others say about res. and quality and whatnot.

I have been usin powervcrII for awhile now and it is a decent real time mpeg 1 and 2 cap program. I use it to capture star trek off of TV and the quality is decent on my settings. Actually, I use the setting of 352x480(which is CVD) with quality set to 3 and, I believe 96 kps audio and 2500 bit rate. That gives me good results on a 27" TV for direct captures. Not perfect, but passible.

I use nero to burn my CVD as an mpeg2(defined as SVCD) and turn off standard compliance (DO NOT LET IT RE ENCODE) and it plays just fine in my dvd player. I hesistate to say this, but I am pretty certain that if your DVD player plays SVCD, it will play CVD. Also, do a search on CVD (I believe SatStorm was the person who posted it), but it gives a good rundown on the difference between SVCD and CVD and why CVD is superior and while you'll get a better picture and why when you go to DVD-R in the future, you wont have to re-encode your videos.

If you are looking for absolute quality in your captures, throw away powervcrII. You need to capture in AVI and then re-encode to mpeg 1 or 2 (I say one as a possibility as I would say real time capture beats VCD from an avi capped source). For avi captures I use iuvcr or virtualdub, depending on my mood. Then depending on the final product and how much time I want to spend on it, I use filters and use CCE (cinema craft encoder) 2.50 to get my to my mpeg.

[Fozzee]

Bradskey your spot on.

I am experiencing a strange bitrate issue with PowerVCR .........

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129515

Although my captures encode fine through TMPGEnc.

I have WinDVR2 and PowerDirector Pro 2.5 Pro but I prefer the interface of PowerVCR although theres nothing between the captures any of them do.

Fozz

[Bradskey]

Yeah, I forgot to mention you can just tweak the PowerVCR registry settings to cap to 480x480 if you don't want to buy WinDVR and re-encoding is not interesting to you.

Fozzee, I have both programs so I'll maybe do some tests/comparisons on the resulting avg bitrates tomorrow. Can't say that I'll have any explanation, but I'll tell you if the same thing happens for me. From what I've seen so far it appears that PowerVCR does some funny things in its MPEG output format. I do like it tho' -- its great for scheduled recording of Enterprise or whatever, but I don't use it for anything I'm going to process/save later. I also prefer PowerDVD to WinDVD -- I just like the interface better, although they're really close.

[Super Warrior]

If you are looking for absolute quality in your captures, throw away powervcrII. You need to capture in AVI and then re-encode to mpeg 1 or 2 (I say one as a possibility as I would say real time capture beats VCD from an avi capped source). For avi captures I use iuvcr or virtualdub, depending on my mood. Then depending on the final product and how much time I want to spend on it, I use filters and use CCE (cinema craft encoder) 2.50 to get my to my mpeg.

I guess that sounds good.What are some good programs to capture in nice quality AVI with?

Because its not just the 480x480,PowerVCR II also just dos'ent do it right for some reason.Even when trying to record in the best format,the capture comes out looking lame and not how it should be.

And please don't suggest virtual VCR.I tried getting it work for hours and just could'nt get the video to display right.

[Fozzee]

Once again Bradskey I'm with you.

PowerDVD romps over WinDVD.

I can play my DivX in it full screen.

And it's so much faster than WinDVD.

I have no problem using my captures in PowerVCR for encoding purposes. I am just miffed why the average bitrates so much lower than the settings I use.
One thing I will say is tho. I use the first patch for PowerDVD not the second one.
With the second one I couldn't open my captures in TMPGEnc.
I can with the first patch


Fozzee

[susie]

I agree with you. I find WinDVR2.0 better than PowerVCR. And now I am using WinDVD Recorder 1.0 which is an improved version of WinDVR 2.0

Yes, 480x480 is your MPEG-2 target only if you want to make SVCD. Intervideo's WinDVR is equivalent to PowerVCR II and it can capture directly to 480x480 MPEG-2. However, as was mentioned already, you will find that direct capture to 480x480 at SVCD bitrate is usually inferior to capturing at hi-res (640x480 or higher) and high bitrate (6 to 10 Mbps) and then doing an offline encode to 480x480 MPEG-2 using TMPGEnc or whatever you use. As for PowerVCR II, I really like the program -- I like it better than WinDVR, BUT, I myself and several other people have had serious problems taking the MPEG files it captures and re-encoding them. If the problem occurs on your system you will almost always experience gradual audio de-sync with files re-encoded from PowerVCR files, and there doesn't seem to be any satisfactory way to correct it. Don't hold me to this, but I think it has something to do with some type of variable framerate in the PowerVCR MPEG output files. This has been discussed extensively on the Vidomi forums and elsewhere. I found all kinds of tips and suggestions and tried all kinds of crap and NOTHING would correct it. If PowerVCR output works well for you then congratulations! I found WinDVR has the same capabilities and the output files cause no audio sync problems when re-encoded, and others have found this to be the case also.

[Bradskey]

I have no problem using my captures in PowerVCR for encoding purposes. I am just miffed why the average bitrates so much lower than the settings I use.
One thing I will say is tho. I use the first patch for PowerDVD not the second one.
With the second one I couldn't open my captures in TMPGEnc.
I can with the first patch

Fozzee

Well I have the Apr ' 15 2002 patch. I can open the source in TMPGEnc (or usually just frameserve) but they give me audio sync problems. When I analyze PowerVCR outputs in Womble (using the GOP fixer) they show a sizeable percentage of GOP time code errors, as well as audio PTS errors. Now I don't know exactly what this means, but scanning WinDVR outputs only shows audio PTS errors and NO GOP timecode errors. In any case using the Womble GOP fixer function doesn't help my sync issues with PowerVCR outputs.

N-E-Wayz... I did some tests. I cap 1 minute of very similar source video in PowerVCR and WinDVR using MPEG-2 640x480 8.0 Mbps settings. Analyzing the PowerVCR output showed a peak bitrate of 6868 and an average of 6086. However, my WinDVR output also showed a peak of only 6994 with an average bitrate of 6342. Both videos look every bit as good as the source as far as I can tell. My guess -- assuming my 1.2 GHz Athlon with 512 MB RAM is powerful enough to do 8+ Mbit (surely it is?) -- is that both programs are saying that I won't benefit cap'ing my analog source any higher than about 7 Mbps (I have a TV Wonder). I could try upping the resolution to 720x586 and see if the peak and avg's rise, but they may still fall short of my settings.

[Fozzee]

Hi again

Here's my results with bitrate viewer

Cyberlink PowerDirector Pro 2.5.............Peak = 10486 Av = 7905

Cyberlink PowerVCR2............................Peak = 8283 Av = 6573

Intervideo WinDVR 2.............................Peak = 9090 Av = 8031

but what exactly does this mean???
All the captures look fine!!!!


That program you were talking about Womble is it ???
Where can I get it??
Does it measure audio/video synch??

Fozzee

[Bradskey]

Womble MPEG2VCR (as well as M2-edit) is an excellent MPEG-1/2 editor. Its one of the few tools that can perform frame-accurate cuts/edits (like you can do so easily on AVI using Vdub). Womble re-encodes the GOPs around the edit points and rarely causes audio sync problems -- much better and more accurate than the edit/clip features in TMPGEnc or PowerVCR. Womble probably has the easier interface amond such programs, and it can also mux/demux and happens to have a GOP fixer that tries to scan for and fix certain types of MPEG stream errors (I don't know that much about that part). Womble causes excessive padding for some people in its output files (like a 2 GB file that should only be 600 MB or something), but that has never happened for me. I still re-mux everything Womble outputs using TMPGEnc. Womble isn't cheap (although its a pretty good deal for such a program). You can get the demo at www.womble.com -- an MPEG-1 version is $50 I think and the MPEG-1/2 version is about $150. There's a link in the tools section I think.

[Super Warrior]

I don't know about you guys,but Powervcr II is crap and dos'ent work very well for me.I tried all the stuff and even at whats supposed to be the best quality.It still comes out looking like garbage,being a little jumpy and frames skipping here&there.

I downloaded Windvr recently and it is way better at captureing it seems.Regular Mpeg-1 captures come out looking way better than the garbage that was supposed to be DVD quality in PowervcrII.And a added plus,windvr captures in 480x480.

So anyway,I'm thinking that i'd capture in the best quality possible in Windvr and then reencode down to whatever selected bitrate i'd like in TMPGEnc.But there is a problem,Mpeg-2 recorded files by windvr are'nt accepted in TMPGEnc for some reason.Just Mpeg-1.

And anyone know a good AVI capture program other than Virtualvcr?

[Bradskey]

PowerVCR probably just doesn't like your capture card. WinDVR has more generalized WDM device support I think. As for opening MPEG-2 in TMPGEnc, you should be able to (at least the video part of the file) as long as you have an MPEG-2 codec (sometimes not) or get the MPEG-2 plugin for TMPGEnc. However, it is about twice as fast to do frameserving, which is simpler than it sounds. I use DVD2AVI 1.76+ -- simply open the MPEG-2 file in DVD2AVI and go to File->Save Project and save as a .d2v file. Then open the d2v file as your video source (assuming DVD2AVI VFAPI plugin is registered in TMPGEnc) and it will frameserve as your video source. There a a couple of really good guides for doing this with DVD2AVI and other programs (I hear using Avisynth is even faster) right here on this sight.

A lot of people do AVI cap with VirtualDub. Problem is that VirtualDub only supports older VfW drivers, so you'll have to search for and install the VfW-WDM Wrapper driver. Another annoying thing is you may have to tune your source (ie TV cap) in another program before using VirtualDub, and the wrapper performance may not be great on slower machines (?). I think a program called iu_vcr also does good AVI cap.

[Fozzee]

I tried that frameserving thingy....

What do I put in the audio source??

And why is it twice as quick to frame serve??

Explain further please or point to the guides TYVM

Cheers

Fozzee

[Fozzee]

Hi
When frameserving this was the name of the audio file created ...........

VCD MPA T01 DELAY 156ms.mpa

What does that 156ms mean????

HELPPPP

Only got a 28ms one with WinDVR 2??


Fozzee

[Fozzee]

Hi
Just tryed frame serving on a 1 min file.

It took exactly the same time as if I loaded the file straight into TMPGEnc???

Is this file to small to see the difference???

I know I'm bombarding you with questions

What are the advantages of frame serving apart from the supposed speed??

Cheers

Fozzee

[Bradskey]

DVD2AVI does create an MPA audio file but I usually disable audio processing in DVD2AVI. What I do is use TMPGEnc MPEG Tools (under file menu) and demultiplex the audio stream from your original MPEG-2 source -- go to the Demultiplex tab, browse for your MPEG source file and it should then show a list of streams in the file. Double-click the audio stream and it will give you the option to save as an MP2 file (MPEG Layer-II audio). Then use that as your audio source.

One minute may be kinda' short to see much difference. Also, this really only applies to MPEG-2 sources. If using the MPEG-2 plugin to read MPEG-2 into TMPGEnc frameserving with DVD2AVI or other program will generally be about twice as fast. I can take about a 10 min 640x480 MPEG2 clip on my system and convert to SVCD using TMPGEnc in about an hour using the MPEG-2 plugin, in about 30 min using DVD2AVI to frameserve. Here's a good guide on this site...

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/87270.php

[Fozzee]

Cheers Dude

Fozzee

[Fozzee]

Hi

so are u saying .......


Capture(mpeg2) ---- DVD2AVI ---- TMPGEnc = Faster Encoding Times??


Fozzee

[Bradskey]

Well it certainly is faster for me, and I'm pretty sure I've read other posts where other people said the same thing. The MPEG-2 plugin is just slow, for whatever reason. DVD2AVI frameserving handles the video decoding and feeds it to TMPGEnc. Other things affect your encoding of course, like 2-pass VBR being about twice as long as CQ_VBR, etc.

[SatStorm]

Why, to grabb to mpeg 2 just to re-encode to another mpeg 2?
This is silly! No practical! Expecially if you use in the first grabb bitrates around 4000 or more (which are the only ones to give you descent quality for realtime 1/2 D1 captures, the native resolution of CVD, with SVCD/DVD you need even more higher bitrates), you don't even save HD space! So why to do it? I keep hearing people posting "I grabbed direct to mpeg 2 @ 9000kb/s and I re-encode...."
Sorry, but it is totaly stupid. Capturing even with Huffyuv @ 1/2D1, gonna give almost the same filesize! In far better quality and much more encoder friendly source (All the encoders, state that they convert avi to mpeg. They don't say they re-encode mpeg to mpeg! )

Mpeg 2 is not designed for re-encoding. It is not a good source. It is a target format like all mpeg formats (mpeg 1, 2 and 4).

The only reason to grabb analogue direct to mpeg 2 with proggies like winvcr, windvr, etc realtime, is to save time. For typical movies, some kind of docymantates, news and some typical series, it might be OK. Using CVD (1/2D1) with an average bitrate about 2800kb/s ain't bad.
But for SciFi series, Music VideoClips, Action/SciFI Movies, athletics, etc, you have to rise the bitrate far beyond this, so you end up with huge files which needs re-encoding. Yes, but if you have to re-encode, then choose to grabb to the correct format from the first place! And that ain't mpeg of any form. Is the old good faschion Avi. Huffyuv or Mjpeg like PicVideo. Or even DV (with the correct hardware). But no way mpeg!
Also, if you use a frameserver like DVD2AVI, you slow down a bit your system. Frameservers are good, neccessary and also time killers!

If you have the time (and you have it, if you say that you grabb to mpeg 2 and the re-encode...), then the best solution, the smart solution, the wise way, is to grabb your analogue source with virtualdub (or other like programs, vdub is the best of all) using Huffyuv if you have the HD space or an Mjpeg codec (PicVideo, morgan, etc). With PicVideo for example, if you set the quality to 17 you have filesize about the same as grabbing to mpeg 2 @ 4500kb/s but with way better quality! WAY BETTER QUALITY! (for grabbing @ 480 X 576/480, the highest true grabb you can get with mainstream technology - I believe it is even less, 384 X 576/480 but some others say that 480 X 576/480 is true and possible, so I mention it)
Then, you can:
- Load direct to TMPGenc (or CCE, or Procorder, or bbmpeg, or LSX, or whatever) and encode to mpeg 1/2/4/name it...
- Framesave with Vdub to your favorite encoder. It is way faster than frameserving mpeg 2 with dvd2avi to TMPGEnc. You can even use avisynth to make it even more faster (but needs reading to make it so, myself ain't good with it).
That way, you don't even have to extract/proccess the audio yourself. It automates the procedure. You can even encode with tooLAME as external audio encoder or TMPGenc to any bitrate you wish! Perfect quality, automate procedure. No probs of any kind!

Why to: Capture to mpeg 2, demux audio/video, re-encode video, proccess audio, multiplexx? You need more HD space than to Capture to avi with mjpeg for example with a value of 17-18, frameserve with vdub (2 clicks! 2 seconds proccess!!!!), load to Encoder, Load template and hit encode. So, why to do it? Just because those programs exist? Or because marketing convince you that this is the correct way?
Anyway, just to add my thoughts, sorry If I upset someone....

[Bradskey]

Words like "stupid" do not apply. I am not stupid -- I know quite well what I am doing. Huffy caps are not "far better" in quality. It is somewhat better, depending to an extent on the source, but not "shockingly noticeably totally superior" or anything like that. I'm sorry if MPEG-2 caps turn out so bad on your system.

You are quite incorrect about file sizes. One mintue of 640x480 30fps Huffyuv video is about 600MB on my system. Tweaking color format and other settings can change this some I'm sure, but an 8 Mbps stream no matter what the quality/resolution/framerate/color/etc will calculate to be 57 MB for one minute of video.

I am not aware of any moral precept that MPEG is the "wrong" source type, and the encoders I use most certainly do accept MPEG-1/2 for re-encoding. I appreciate Huffyuv for what it is, but I don't know why you even mention MJPEG -- a lossy format like MPEG -- which I have no use for. And I just indicated in this thread that frameserving my MPEG-2 speeds up my encode process, not slow it down. There's nothing fast about software MPEG encoding in any case, especially when you enlist filters and 2-pass VBR, and I've noted no significant speed increase using Huffyuv sources.

In my judgement my high bitrate MPEG caps are generally just as good as my AVI caps for my purposes. The key phrase being "my judgement", which is all that really matters to me. I'm going to knock my caps down to SVCD or CVD anyway, so any detectable difference (which rarely exists) matters very little.I have the software and the hard disk space and speed to do AVI -- IF I WANTED TO. There is nothing significantly more complicated about the way I'm doing it with MPEG. And again, I DO save a LOT on hard disk space. As for AVI cap, I do not like Vdub's capture interface. It seems like a cruddy program afterthought. It doesn't even support WDM, so I have to load some silly wrapper, which may actually impair performance, and it doesn't tune my signal. If you love it then more power to you. I like my nice VCR-like totally-configurable MPEG capture software.

Capturing to high-quality high-bitrate MPEG-2 is a perfectly legitimate method of obtaining source video for later processing. It is also good for someone with a smaller or slower hard drive. Its not perfect but nothing else really is either. If done correctly the results are quite satisfactory.

[SatStorm]

Basicly, I didn't called anybody stupid. I said that I find it stupid...
Sorry if there is a misunderstanding!

Look, I know exactly what you can grabb and how you can grabb. I testing 3 years now for those matters and I think I know many things for this hobby.
Personally, I don't believe that grabbing @ 640 X 480 give you something. For me any analogue grabb beyond 384 X 576/480 is a fake because of today's hardware limitations. Some people still believe that 480 X 576/480 is the top you can get, so I keep mention it even if I don't believe it. But beyond this is an overkill. I don't have to explain why I say this, use the search fuction of the forum to read several posts for it!
About filesizes, capturing from an analogue source @ 352 X 576/480 with MjPEG @ a value of 19 is about the half of huffyuv filesize and close enough capturing to mpeg 2 @ those higher bitrates you mention. The difference is that MjPEG is way better. You believe that mpeg 2 is better, no problem... It is, visually. But it is not for the encoder, which "see" different. HuffyUV is the top solution, but need HD. About 10GB per hour for a 1/2 D1 grabb (the best solution for VHS/SVHS and any analogue source in generall, except LD with expencise cabels...)

Anyway, if you believe that you are correct, and you have good results then continue doing it. I didn't say "do it my way". Soon or later everybody conclute to the same results... I know, I was there....
The problem with us, the enthusiasts of the scene, is that we always want to invent the weel from the start... It is our nature!
Happy encoding.

[Fozzee]

BRADSKEY....

U are my twin


I agree 100% with you.

I cant be arsed to muck about with AVI with this filter and that filter etc etc when.........
I can such good results capturing at high bitrates then encoding down.
I use a variety of programs which I basically switch on like a VCR and just click RECORD. What can be more user friendly
I am not a professional who's after the perfect picture on a 72" monitor!!!!
The results I get are more than adequate for my purposes.
When i get a DVD burner then yes I will have no need to encode.
But for now making VCD and SVCD I will continue with my tried and tested method.

Cheers

Fozzee