23.976 fps to 25

[lgarmendia]

I've some files which are 23.976 fps, but as I live in Europe, I have to convert them to 25 fps. I'm sure this is something that has been asked before, but haven't found the right thread.

How can I change it to 25?

A) If I choose 25 fps in TMPGEnc, the final result seen on TV isn't smooth, as video freezes for some minimal time each 3 or 4 seconds.
B) If I change frame rate, then I should also modify the sound, and the movie would shorten! Is this noticeable?
C) I guess any kind of frame interpolation (to create the "missing" frames) would be too slow, and results may not be satisfactory.

Thanx

[rhegedus]

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=120405&highlight=

[adam]

Most PAL tv's are in fact multiscan tv's, and can display an NTSC signal with no problem. Even if your's doesn't, most dvd players sold in PAL regions can convert NTSC to PAL 60Hz, which again almost all PAL tv's can properly playback. Basically if you leave these movies as NTSC then you should be fine.

If you do convert to PAL then enable the "don't framerate change" in TMPGenc. (something like that, don't have TMPGenc installed on this pc.) If you have this enabled then TMPGenc will speed the movie up from ~24fps to 25fps, which is how the conversion should be done. Without this option enabled TMPGenc will simply repeat one frame every second, which is why you get choppy playback.

As for the audio, I believe if you convert the audio with the video than it should be fine. Otherwise you will have to slow the audio down by about
%4 using any wav editor. As a result of a film (~24fps) conversion to PAL you will also raise the pitch of the audio. Most of the time this isn't noticable. If it is then you may try lowering the pitch by %4 as well in your wav editor.

[banjazzer]

As adam says, first try using the NTSC(film) template to encode. If this doesn't work then it is relatively straightforward to convert to PAL. I prefer to load the avi into Virtualdub, then alter the framerate to 25 (Direct stream copy) and save a new copy of the avi (video only). This has the advantage that it will get rid of any junk frames. Then save the wav from Virtualdub (full processing mode), and load into something like Soundforge. Shrink the wav using *Time stretch* to be 95.90% of the original. (23.976/25x100). I don't ever bother adjusting the pitch, and most people don't seem to be able to detect the pitch change. Now you can encode with the PAL template.

[SingSing]

The minimum effort is really put the disc in your player, and try it out.
If it plays, sit back, grap a cup of tea, and watch the movie.

We should spend more time doing xmas shopping, then TMPGencing.

Cheer. OH, I means here, here.

[puertorican138]

I would recomment using CoolEdit for the audio part.



Hope That Helps!!! :P

[adam]

Banjazzer actually this is incorrect. Setting vdub's video to direct stream copy effectively nullifies all the other settings for your video. You can set the fps to anything you want, it will still output the fps of your source because all it does is copy the stream exactly as it is. If you set it to full processing mode than it will convert to the new fps, but unless you convert to raw uncompressed avi or a lossless codec, or frameserve, than you are going to lose quality and it will take a long time as well.

By checking "don't framerate change" in TMPGenc, it will not duplicate any frames. It will just speed the playback speed up like Virtual Dub does by default. The result is exactly the same but it saves a lot of time and a whole lot of hard drive space.

So either use TMPGenc with the abovementioned option, or use vdub with full processing mode selected and frameserve to your encoder.

[banjazzer]

Setting vdub's video to direct stream copy effectively nullifies all the other settings for your video.

It doesn't actually, adam. I use this all the time for converting from NTSC(film) DivX. You set Video to direct stream copy, then Video>Framerate>Source rate adjustment (adjust to 25). It re-saves the video (minus any junk frames) at the new framerate. The subsequent video can be encoded perfectly with either TMPG using the PAL template), or CCE. Naturally the audio has to be adjusted to the new length of the video.

I know you can do the same sort of thing in TMPG, but the advantage of re-saving in Virtualdub is that Virtualdub will not save any junk frames. The latter seems to be the source of sync problems when encoding with TMPG, which doesn't handle these well.

[SatStorm]

I am very interesting on this, 'cause I wish to convert some NTSC VHS tapes to PAL CVDs.
First of all, I have to say something for PAL 60: It is not acceptable from PAL TVs using 100Hz. So, you have to solutions: Or you encode to NTSC or you have to encode to PAL. I prefer the second way.

The best way I found in theory (not yet tested) is to grabb with Vdub @ 29.97fps, then use inverse telecine to convert to NTSC film 23.97 and then use this guide http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/78178.php to convert to PAL.
Also, there is another issue I want to discuss: When you converting NTSC to PAL, you have about 96 missing vertical lines. What you can do with the correct aspect for them? I am thinking to manually set the picture aspect to something like 352 X 520 and add border to the up and the down part of the screen to fill the 56 lines gap.
Also, I have to use the hue filter on TMPGenc to correct the NTSC colors (very annoying like green faces for example...)

OR there is another, better way?

[banjazzer]

and then use this guide http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/78178.php to convert to PAL.

I am not saying there is anything at all wrong with this guide, but it does seem overly complicated. There is no particular need to frameserve the video. The only reason I can think of would be if you wanted to add subtitles. If an avi can be loaded into Virtualdub, the framerate can be changed quickly and easily, and the video re-saved. At this stage it can be input directly to TMPG. If using CCE, then you can go via a TMPG project file >> VFAPi Converter pseudo-avi>>CCE. Or, perhaps preferably by loading the avi into FitCD and producing an Avisynth SVCD script to load directly into CCE.

When you converting NTSC to PAL, you have about 96 missing vertical lines. What you can do with the correct aspect for them? I am thinking to manually set the picture aspect to something like 352 X 520 and add border to the up and the down part of the screen to fill the 56 lines gap.

Having converted the framerate of the avi to 25fps, I can then load into TMPG using the PAL template, Source aspect ratio 1:1(VGA) and Video arrange method Full screen(keep aspect ratio). This produces VCD or SVCD with everything that was in the original avi, with the same aspect ratio as the original avi.

[SatStorm]

Aha!!! Thanks for the tip, I'll test it!

But ain't that f*ck up the interlace?

[banjazzer]

The avis I use aren't interlaced. If you have an interlaced source I don't see that going via TMPG as I suggested will alter anything. Presumably for VCD you deinterlace, and for SVCD you leave it interlaced(?) I don't know how interlaced source is handled using FitCD, because as I say, I rarely deal with interlaced subjects. If you mean will altering the framerate affect the interlacing, then I would say I don't think so!

[SatStorm]

no, I mean when you set the interlace Source to aspect ratio 1:1(VGA) and set the Video arrange method to Full screen(keep aspect ratio). That way the picture gonna fit on the screen, but that gonna F*ck up the interlace the same way it does when you crop any source and use full screen (keep aspect ratio) (I always use keep aspect ratio 2 to prevent this).

De-interlace ain't possible without loss on VHS, so ain't an option for me...

But now I think it more, the way you suggest, gonna pan and scan verticaly the picture so it gonna destroy the aspect, or gonna zoom the source to keep the aspect so it gonna through some info horizontally

Both ain't good the way I see it...

I have to try many things I think...

[banjazzer]

no, I mean when you set the interlace Source to aspect ratio 1:1(VGA) and set the Video arrange method to Full screen(keep aspect ratio). That way the picture gonna fit on the screen, but that gonna F*ck up the interlace the same way it does when you crop any source and use full screen (keep aspect ratio) (I always use keep aspect ratio 2 to prevent this).

I've never experienced a problem, even with interlaced source, and even with cropping (which you don't necessarily have to do). However, using *keep aspect ratio 2* is perfectly OK. Both will preserve the aspect ratio.

[afwasborstel]

AND THIS IS THE F*CKING LAST TIME

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/avi2svcd.htm

Goodluck...

[banjazzer]

AND THIS IS THE F*CKING LAST TIME

Thank God for that.

[SatStorm]

There is a issue:
You see, when you have a source like 544 X 576 and you want to re-encode to CVD you have to:

Frameserve with DVD2AVI if it is mpeg

Load the file (or the the m2v and mp2 if it is frameserved) to TMPGEnc
Load your favorite template (etc: CVD)
Then you have to go and set input source aspect ratio to 4:3 desplay. If you don't do this and leave it as 1:1 then you end up with a wrong horizontal aspect if your output is 4:3 (or 16:9)
I remind you, we don't talk mpeg 4 (divx/xvid) here, only captured avi from VHS/TV (or DVB source)

Now: If you crop some of the top/bottom or the left/right to center the picture, you have to set the Video arrange method to Full Screen (Keep aspect ratio 2). If you don't do this and leave it to Full Screen (Keep aspect ratio), TMPGenc gonna maximaze the cropped screen to Fit it to the screen
That gonna f*ck the interlace and your picture is full of interlace waves on motion.

So, I don't think is possible to simply follow your advise for the picture aspect.

[banjazzer]

The confusion is perhaps because we started talking about avis. It obviously does not apply to mpeg.

However, with avi captured from video/cam the source aspect ratio should still be 1:1(VGA), I think. It's a long while since I've done this though, so I may be mistaken.

Can you supply a small sample of your captured avi for me to test this?

[SatStorm]

@ afwasborstel: what you mean with this "AND THIS IS THE F*CKING LAST TIME"
This guide said:
"This only applies if you have an NTSC (23.976 or 29.97fps) video and want to convert it to PAL format because your standalone does not support NTSC framerates. 29.97fps are currently also not supported in this mode as you'd have to IVTC them (experienced TMPG users know how to do that, but TMPG's auto-IVTC will most likely fail because these sources are often deinterlaced, so you have to find a working IVTC sequence on your own)"

We talk about this here. So what is your point?

[SatStorm]

@ banjazzer

For the encoder an avi or an mpeg is a source and nothing more. The encoder doesn't care or doesn't haddle it different.

- Frameservers simply foul the encoders to handle any source as avi!

You experience is divx/xvid (mpeg 4) or DVD, it seems you don't have much experience with analogue grabbs or DVB source.
Those things ain't the same.

My "problem" with all those guides is that they don't tell you what to do if you grabb yourself your own material from NTSC and you want to convert it to PAL.

They say something like "this guide is for 23.97, for 29.97 you have to find your own way to make it first 23.97 and then follow those steps".

Also nobody talks about interlace material and the fact that there is a vertical gap between PAL/NTSC.

In other words, all those guides are based on divx/xvid and 23.97 source.
This is not the same with a 29.97 NTSC VHS.

[banjazzer]

You experience is divx/xvid (mpeg 4) or DVD, it seems you don't have much experience with analogue grabbs or DVB source.
Those things ain't the same.

Furry nuff! But I'm still not totally convinced that analogue grabs and DVB captured to PC should be treated as anything other than a VGA(1:1) source when subsequently encoded. However, that is my opinion, and as you say, I don't have much experience with this material. However, if you are prepared to provide a small clip (avi format) from such a source, I would like to establish this for myself. I would also like to appreciate the interlace problems you mentioned.

[afwasborstel]

"This only applies if you have an NTSC (23.976 or 29.97fps) video and want to convert it to PAL format because your standalone does not support NTSC framerates. 29.97fps are currently also not supported in this mode as you'd have to IVTC them (experienced TMPG users know how to do that, but TMPG's auto-IVTC will most likely fail because these sources are often deinterlaced, so you have to find a working IVTC sequence on your own)"

Is supported...when do people learn to be creative with one guide and don't take them for the Holy Grail

[SatStorm]

@ banjazzer
It is impossible to supply you with an avi. We have 38.000kb/s Dial ups here, with a speed about 1.2kb/s for download....
I need 2 or more hours to sent a let say 10 MB clip to you and also, internet here costs. About 2$ per hour.
My salary is about 570$ per month to understand...
Also, I don't have to convince you or everybody around. When the time comes and you have some pure DVB source in your hand, you 'll remember me! It is not 1:1 it is 4:3 input always.

@afwasborstel
I still don't see your point...
I realise that you didn't read my whole post, only the last part.
I already posted the correct way to do it. I copy-paste it for you and you can find it in this same post.

"The best way I found in theory (not yet tested) is to grabb with Vdub @ 29.97fps, then use inverse telecine to convert to NTSC film 23.97 and then use this guide http:// www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/78178.php to convert to PAL"

And then I add:

"OR there is another, better way?"

What have creativity to do with this?
I search for alternatives. You have a problem with that?



You want creativity? Well what about this:
My VCR don't support NTSC. It converts it to PAL 60. My card don't support PAL 60, only PAL BG and pure NTSC. So, what is the solution?













Answer (full of creativity): You grabb with vdub as PAL @ 30fps and only one field (352 X 288). Then, you do a framerate convertion to 25 fps, while you also crop the bottom of the picture (active picture is about 352 X 240). Then you convert to xSVCD @ 352 X 288 using TMPGenc and manual aspect input.
BUT this is not the correct way.

We don't talk for creativity here. We talk for solutions and alternatives.
And please read the whole post before you reply!

[banjazzer]

Also, I don't have to convince you or everybody around. When the time comes and you have some pure DVB source in your hand, you 'll remember me! It is not 1:1 it is 4:3 input always.

OK. I understand your position. But please realise - my intention was not to score points, or to prove you wrong. It was for me to learn! I prefer to learn through my own experience, rather than accept all received wisdom at face value.

[afwasborstel]

Aaaaaaaaarggghhhhh...

Those who keep there eyes closed will never find what they are looking for....

I've some files which are 23.976 fps, but as I live in Europe, I have to convert them to 25 fps. I'm sure this is something that has been asked before, but haven't found the right thread.

How can I change it to 25?

A) If I choose 25 fps in TMPGEnc, the final result seen on TV isn't smooth, as video freezes for some minimal time each 3 or 4 seconds.
B) If I change frame rate, then I should also modify the sound, and the movie would shorten! Is this noticeable?
C) I guess any kind of frame interpolation (to create the "missing" frames) would be too slow, and results may not be satisfactory.

Thanx

Pal = 25 frames per second.. 1 frame consist of two fields(eg 50 cycles per second or 50 Hz) 1 field is an half image...Native NTSC as it once was invented consist of 30 frames so that is 60 half images or 60 hz...at one time they invented the ntsc dropframe wich ment that in in every 3 second or so 1 frame was dropped...that is why it is 29,97 and not 30 anymore...why...I don't know and I don't care..

Still to have a solid picture we need a full frame(eg 1 frame and thus 2 fields) so 29,97 is not the absolute framerate per second but an average framerate per second. And the 23,976 f/ps is also an average not the absolute framerate per second. This 23,976 f/ps or NTSC film as we know it, is a predecesor to a new worldwide standard wich till this day hasn't found any ground in the broadcastscene...especially not in europe where I live...

Sofar...so good...

In computers we don't speak of a framerate at all...only the speed at wich we play the frames is important. Let's say we have in pal 10 seconds of video...that means we have 250 frames. When we play them in pal speed it wil take 10 second...in NTSC(29,976) it wil take 8,34 seconds.. And in NTSC film it will take 10,4 seconds..

So on a pc we havent got the limitations of PAL or NTSC....every frame wil be played...and is in your file....


Remember something else...NTSC has 525 imagelines...and PAL has 625...if u just use TMPGenc put it to full screen and 1:1(VGA) there will be no stretching...TMPGenc fills up the caused space with black lines...and even when it will stretch....u will never be able to tell it

And for the rest...READ THE F*CKING MANUAL!

[banjazzer]

Pal = 25 frames per second..

Is your post in some way connected to what you quoted?

And for the rest...READ THE F*CKING MANUAL!

I suggest you read what you are replying to...before replying.

[SatStorm]

@ afwasborstel: You are of topic, or you simply want to mess up the discussion?
Anyway, as I already posted, I am of the search of an true NTSC VCR player.
All of mine auto convert to pal 60 which I cann't grabb correct with my card and I can't disable from the VCR (which by the way, it is Philips, also from holland... Damn you Philips )

[DJRumpy]

Oh my ghawd. It's only 1 frame per second. Just use AVISynth, and the AssumeFPS command. You can resize to PAL standards, and change the FPS all at once. It creates a very smooth output, because it's not chopping, or adding any frames.

Speed up your avi to 25 fps (which is probably how the PAL version was created in the first place, by increasing it from 23.976 to 25), Use SSRC (or the audio editor of your choice, but SSRC comes with a quick select FILM to PAL setting) to resample the audio, so you don't have the whole chipmunk thing going on with the Audio.

Encode and presto..PAL.

[banjazzer]

but SSRC comes with a quick select FILM to PAL setting) to resample the audio,

Can you explain this a bit further?

[DJRumpy]

Sorry banjazzer. I meant BeSweet GUI. It comes with a dropdown for NTSC to PAL

It doesn't get any easier. I never have any sync problems using this method.