NTSC - PAL format debate

[snowmoon]

As someone with the US DV-333.

This unit can play PAL (S)VCD's quite well. It does the format conversion and outputs the video as NTSC. I know becuase I have hooked it up to several NTSC only TV's and have has no problem playing back PAL materal.

The Multi-region DV-333 that are sold are generally the EU model that outputs the signal native without conversion since they expect most people to have multi-region TV's and would prefer NOT to have the output converted.

SingSing, if you have the US model DV-333 then it IS doing format conversion to NTSC on the fly of the PAL disc. You are getting confused since there are TWO different DV-333's the US and the EU/international model

[yg1968]

Thanks Snowmoon, that should settle the debate. A lot of people don't understand that a region-free settop DVD player in North America cannot necessarely play PAL disks. So this debate has been useful. The PAL to NTSC conversion is not always advertised by companies. So you have to rely on word of month or on comments from users on this or other forums.

What further confuses people is that a Region Free DVD-ROM will be able to play PAL or NTSC disks. So they expect their setop player to do the same. As was mentioned before, only a handful of Region-Free DVD players in North America can do this conversion from NTSC to PAL. Most of the set-top players that can do this are being manufactured in China and have more in common with DVD-ROM than Video equipment.

If you read some of the threads on www.nerd-out.com, many posters are excited to have found a region-free and macrovision-free DVD player that has an IDE-loader (Norcent DP-300). They are also hoping to add a hardisk to their settop DVD player. It also does the PAL to NTSC conversion but with the same problem where it stretches the image when converting a PAL DVD. This is due to the fact that the DVD player can either do the PAL to NTSC conversion or the 16:9 anamorphic to 4:3 conversion but it can't do both at the same time. One of the players that can do both conversions is the Malata DVD setop Video player.

[SingSing]

I actually know nothing about the non-NTSC DV-333 player. If I said anything about it, I would like to withdraw it.

Is any other Pioneer Player do PAL VCD ? I don't think Pioneer use that mpeg decoder for just that model.

I am in the process of buying another DVD player. I hope I can find one that can do the same staff, and with some newer feature/plaything. Any suggestions ?

[SingSing]

Most of the original VCDs are in PAL. Most part of the world can play these PAL VCDs, which is cheaper, non-pirate, won't fade out like CDR/W, and with non-US movie.

But we don't have this opportunity this in U.S. Since I found one that can play PAL VCD, I feel opligated to state it.

[SingSing]

As someone with the US DV-333.

This unit can play PAL (S)VCD's quite well. It does the format conversion and outputs the video as NTSC. I know becuase I have hooked it up to several NTSC only TV's and have has no problem playing back PAL materal.

I think the post before you, implied you are watch PAL VCD in black and white.

Are you ?

[Craig Tucker]

It does not imply that at all.

Snowmoon has a DVD player that can do the PAL-NTSC conversion, as you do.

An NTSC only DVD player cannot do this conversion and will output a PAL signal which when played on an NTSC TV will be black and white.

[yg1968]

SingSing,

Snowmoon is saying that the U.S Pionner DV-333 has an NTSC to PAL converter which means that the DVD player converts the PAL signal to NTSC. If the player did not have this converter the output would be in black and white and the output would be unwatchable.

The Philipps DVD-724 is a model that you may want to look at.

[SingSing]

I bought my DV333 at $170, and DV333 is now just above $100 on the web.

I really doubt it is a converter, that cost additional. Pioneer would at least said this on the Box, and sensibility expect us at least $10 for it. My Sharp SVHS VCR has 3D digital filter, it said that on the box, and it is $50 more. It is likely all packed in one chip to reduce cost.

Digital IC designers normally pack all the functions in one chip, and select the options and format that how the chip operates, with SMT jumpers.

I design very large and complex IC chips : Very high speed, Million gates Converter.

[snowmoon]

SingSing,

I don't know why you refuse to listen to anyone, but this is the last time I will say it.

The U.S. Domestic version of the DV-333 WILL CONVERT PAL->NTSC on the fly.

[yg1968]

The PAL to NTSC converter isn't always advertized. However, North American DVD setop models that play VCD often have this PAL to NTSC converter given that VCDs are often in PAL. Like I said this is seldom advertized. Even the instructions manual doesn't always mention it. So you have to rely on word of mouth or other users from this forum.

[SingSing]

AS a consumer, I think the makers are force to suppressed these information on purpose.

In the US copyright (money) war, the main stake is the money in selling DVD discs. The copying of music CDs make studio force DVD maker to omit CDR/W support ( panasonic) and ATI to put in macrovision detection/protection on Video In and Out, plus discourage VCD usage(they cost much less). Sony who makes a lot of money from Sony Studio, sold millions of DVD players that omit CDR/W support, unitl the large number of units return by consumer.

This is the same type of wars similar to "copy music from CD to Casette", Naspter vs RIAA, Disney lobby Congress to extend copyright for 27 more years...

It is about making a lot more money, and it is affect U.S.now and eventually affect the rest of the world, until English is used less, and/or earthquake hits Hollywood.

Sigh...

[Craig Tucker]

AS a consumer, I think the makers are force to suppressed these information on purpose.

OH MY GOD

Has it finally sunk in, could it possibly be that you now accept that your DVD player is performing a PAL-NTSC conversion.

[SingSing]

A DVD player that only output NTSC signal is a NTSC player.

The makers refer to theirs features as "features" like :
Play MP3, Play CDR, Play VCD, play PAL VCD.....

Thay don't said this DVD player as
"Wave to stereo converting, mp3 decompressed with output , plus inverted cosine transform with P, then I frame mpeg player in these following frame rate and resolution.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You did un-hide this from the "off-topic", can you also repost this as topic as : "How to play your PAL VCD with NTSC TV. EASY!".

Thank you.

[Craig Tucker]

I give up, you are beyond help.

[snowmoon]

I agree craigtucker

A simple fact that they do not advertize is not some subursive underworld it's a simple fact of sales and marketing. "Never attribute to malice what could be better explainex by stupidity or apathy"

[SingSing]

SingSing,

I don't know why you refuse to listen to anyone, but this is the last time I will say it.

The U.S. Domestic version of the DV-333 WILL CONVERT PAL->NTSC on the fly.

Open up your DV333 and locate the "PAL->NTSC" converter. It should be big and complex.

If you can't find one, it don't exist. That means the mpeg decoder can read PAL, and NTSC format movie and re-encode any of them to NTSC output.

PAL signal and NTSC is very different ( thus the market for multi-format TV ), their color, lumin, contrast is encoded on different phase and analog levels on the composite, PAL and NTSC syn pulse (both frame and line) are different. The circuit is complex and big.

PAL and NTSC VCD(mpeg) material are very similar. They are all digital bit streams, with headers telling the decoder what they are.

Please, no abusive, malice language or reference to spirital beings, for who ever want to response.

[Craig Tucker]

mmm we've been thinking about this post for a while haven't we. And there was me thinking you had finally dropped it.

Open up your DV333 and locate the "PAL->NTSC" converter. It should be big and complex.

Why should it, this is another one of your assumptions is it ?

If you can't find one, it don't exist. That means the mpeg decoder can read PAL, and NTSC format movie and re-encode any of them to NTSC output.

I really don't know how the conversion is done, and to be quite honest I dont give a toss. The whole point of this is that the Pioneer 333 does the conversion, where as most other north american DVD players don't. They output PAL as PAL. Which an NTSC TV will display in black and white.

So your assumption that all NTSC dvd players can play PAL discs correctly is total crap (which is why this whole argument started), as you have been told so many times before.

Take your PAL disc to a local electronics store and try it in a few DVD players (not another pioneer 333). See how many will play it in colour. And make sure they are not connected to a miltisystem TV

A few may well play it correctly (this means they are converting the signal from PAL to NTSC, just as your Pioneer does). But you will find most of them don't.

[0 kewl]

SingSing,

Why not contact the Pioneer customer support and find out from them whether your player "miraculously" happens to play PAL format without converting it, making all the other US consumers' "assumptions" wrong OR it really has got a built-in converter (as some "naive" people on this forum, including moderators, have stated) which hasn't been mentioned in manual for some "very strange" marketing reasons. This could finally settle this argument (unless you decide Pioneer engineers are wrong too).

Regards.

[House de Kris]

I design very large and complex IC chips : Very high speed, Million gates Converter.

Hey Singsing, would you mind sharing with us what company you work for? I work as a board designer and I'd like to make sure I don't buy any chips that you may have designed.

[Craig Tucker]

[SingSing]

I think this is a different between a technical forum, and a forum for play thing. The understanding of computer vs electronics ( which include all computers ) shows the different in ability for comprehension.

An actual signal is different form a data format, which is not physical.

[SingSing]

Hey Singsing, would you mind sharing with us what company you work for? I work as a board designer and I'd like to make sure I don't buy any chips that you may have designed.

I don't think you are on a caliber that decide about whose chips to use ? Need to go to at least some school.

These are millions dollars bussiness, I respect the customer's $$$$.

[SingSing]

The different between where PAL become NTSC is important.

If it is done by "PAL to NTSC" converter, that means it is design like a multi-system TV. The circuit switch in the desirable signal. This is expensive.

If the PAL framed mpeg data rescaled and frame in the mpeg chip. It is like computer, it cost (nearly) nothing.

I hope this appliance type and computer-type explaination is easy to undertsand.

[Craig Tucker]

The different between where PAL become NTSC is important.

If it is done by "PAL to NTSC" converter, that means it is design like a multi-system TV. The circuit switch in the desirable signal. This is expensive.

If the PAL framed mpeg data rescaled and frame in the mpeg chip. It is like computer, it cost (nearly) nothing.

I hope this appliance type and computer-type explaination is easy to undertsand.

The fact is the signal is converted, how it is converted, who cares. You said that an NTSC only player that does not convert a PAL signal would play ok on an NTSC only TV. Like I said go to an electronics store with your PAL disc and try it. Then come back here and give us the results.

I don't think you are on a caliber that decide about whose chips to use ? Need to go to at least some school.

You are an American right ?. I think you need to go back to school and learn some English grammer, as half of what you write makes no sense.

[Nogana Naishi]

Sorry, I'm new here, but I saw this thread and couldn't resist replying. I was confused at first, but I think I've figured it out:

Both all you people and SingSing are technically correct, depending on what your definition of "PAL to NTSC Conversion" is.

SingSing thinks you're talking about a device in his DVD player that takes a PAL video signal and converts it to an NTSC signal. He's absolutely correct in that this is an unnecessarily over-complicated step. All that needs to be done to convert a PAL Video CD to NTSC format is to insert 1 duplicate frame every 5 frames (much in the same way Telecining film video to NTSC works) and resizing the video slightly before outputting it in an NTSC signal.

It's nearly 100% certain this is what SingSing's DVD Player does, and technically it's not converting a PAL-formatted signal to NTSC, since Video CDs never start out as either an NTSC or PAL signal in the first place--they're just digital video streams with a certain vertical resolution and framerate that make it easier for DVD players to output the video in a certain video format (i.e.: NTSC or PAL).

[SingSing]

The implication of it cost nearly nothing to play PAL, or NTSC, or film rate VCD on NTSC player implied that there should be some other players out there able to do it. Some member suggested : Philips DVD-724.

There was a big forum here about : Pirating. For those us who just want to pay less to watch an original movie, buying VCD ( nearly all PAL ) is a viable solution.

English is not the offical language for U.S.A. It is a polictial proposition.

[rhegedus]

English is not the offical language for U.S.A. It is a polictial proposition.

If it's not English, then what is?

Rob

[tearex]

I'm pretty sure that a plain, not converting NTSC player will NOT output a PAL signal when given a PAL VCD (or PAL anything.) It will either refuse to play the disk or it will play it too slow or too fast, or it will produce "NTSC 50" which is a PAL picture size (625 lines at 25 fps) with NTSC color signal (3.58 MHz carrier, Y-I-Q-quadrature, no phase alternation between lines.)

This is because the picture size and frame rate are stored on the medium, while the color signal format isn't, it's created inside the player.

The number of TVs accepting NTSC 50 is far higher than the number doing real PAL. Many post-1980 (or thereabouts) NTSC TV sets should do NTSC50, while few will do real PAL through component or S-Video, and even fewer will be able to handle PAL broadcasts.

Also NTSC 50 gives you a better quality than real conversion - no need to rescale and drop/insert frames.

Same in Europe: Most players will playback NSTC disks as "PAL 60" - NTSC picture format (525 line, 60 Hz) and frame rate, PAL color signal. Most newer PAL TV sets have no problem with that, while only a few (e.g. those made by the French company Thomson) can do real NTSC video and even fewer can pick up NTSC broadcasts. In Brazil, PAL 60 is even used as the standard TV system IIRC.

Of course if you use SCART or another RGB connection (like almost everybody in Europe) color signal is irrelevant anyway and the only question is, does the TV accept the different frame rate and picture size.

Now the question: why?

Plainly to produce or receive "the other" color signal you need another quartz and another encoder/decoder chip which means additional cost.

However the frame rate/picture size thing just means, don't chose picky components while designing it. Modern TVs don't use the mains frequency as a frame rate reference any more, and the horizontal frequency is almost the same anyway, so this incurs almost no additional costs. The only possible cost issue could be the 3:2 pulldown stuff that PAL-only players don't have to do, but if you're active in both markets your chips will be able to do it.

Of course with VCR things are different as the actual color signal is on the tape, while in DVD or VCD it is produced by the player during playback.

[SingSing]

Hi, Linard, please refer to this post :

It's nearly 100% certain this is what SingSing's DVD Player does, and technically it's not converting a PAL-formatted signal to NTSC, since Video CDs never start out as either an NTSC or PAL signal in the first place--they're just digital video streams with a certain vertical resolution and framerate that make it easier for DVD players to output the video in a certain video format (i.e.: NTSC or PAL).

You are working with analog signaling concepts. They don't apply here. The world has gone digital, and digital video and its technology already took off.

PAL/NTSC/FLIM VCD/DVD information is just a digital bit stream that came off the laser pick-up, format into P and I frame, digital scaled, buffered by memory, and then uses Digital to analog converter to produce NTSC signal in analog ( This is the only place ). All we need to do is hook it up to a standard NTSC TV, and watch the movie.

A well designed DVD player has one or two large Chips, and a few support circuits, The result is excellent flexibility, with brilliant video. Because it is nearlly all digital.

Note : The topics title is mangled. The topic should be :
"Play your PAL VCD in this NTSC DVD player - Pioneer DV333".

[Craig Tucker]

Note : The topics title is mangled. The topic should be :
"Play your PAL VCD in this NTSC DVD player - Pioneer DV333".

I don't agree, when this thread started, you were implying that any NTSC only DVD player should play PAL discs, as there was no format conversion taking place. It wasn't until later that the thread started to revolve around your 333.