Hi8/VHS to DVD: which bitrate do you recommend?

[Luis Neves]

The idea is to put the maximum lenght of film without loosing quality from the original analogue source. I have made a few tests but before posting my conclusions I would like to have feedback from experienced users on this question. What is your best compromise?

[LordKariya]

For VHS stuff, I use Divx@800kbps. Normally I'll use 1200 for a broadcast, but VHS doesn't start off so good to begin with. if the VHS is lousy, I use the 2d Cleaner and Dynamic noise reduction filters.

[ronnylov]

Half D1 (352x576 PAL or 352x480 NTSC) with 2-pass vbr and an average bitrate around 3000 kbit/s seems OK for VHS source. For Hi8 or SVHS I would choose 704x576/480 vbr with average bitrate around 6000 kbit/s.

[DJRumpy]

If your moving to DVD, and your source length is less then 2 hours, go with DVD 720x480, using multipass VBR.

Min 0, Avg 5000, Max 9000. It should fit without a problem, with no loss in quality. If it's over two hours, and space becomes a problem, consider splitting onto two DVD's, or dropping the average to 4000, and max to 7000, or optionally going to half D1 (352x480), and using 0,5000,9000 again. Definately use a 2d cleaner, either during capture, or post capture, as noise from your source will waste bitrate.

[Xtasy2002]

Half D1 (352x576 PAL or 352x480 NTSC) with 2-pass vbr and an average bitrate around 3000 kbit/s seems OK for VHS source.

This guy was right on the money.. I've done 100's of VHS movie conversions to DVD so far. You will NOT get any added quality going above 352x480 @ 3000 bitrate on VHS.

The tradeoff when doing it this way is, of course, you can usually take 2 nearly full VHS tapes. Encode with the above settings. And they will both fit on a single DVD-R.

GL

[reilly]

I hate to sound like quite a newbie, but I am. I'm trying to do the same thing. Convert ntsc vhs, hi8, etc to dvd. If I understand correctly you are saying cap at 352x480 @ 3mgs/s is what we want to capture on in MPEG-2 format. When it is made into a DVD doesn't it have to change to 720x480?

Before I delete the origional tapes I want to make sure that I capture them right. That's my biggest problem to date, figuring that out.

Does anyone have a guide for this process?

[energy80s]

No, 352 x 576 (480) is a DVD standard resolution. Your DVD authoring software will have no problems importing it. Just remember to keep the GOP to 15 for PAL or 18 for NTSC encodes and record the audio at 48k.

[mpb]

Reilly - I've been doing it for a couple years, and trial and error have confirmed for me that your capture resolutions in vdub should be 352x480 or 360x480. You only need to use 720x480 for mini-DV. For laserdisc I tend to use 704x480. Here's how you tell.

First the important thing to understand is that we want to get as much quality as we can from the source tape without wasting bitrate on information that isn't there. Analog video doesn't have a "resolution" strictly speaking, it just has lines and refresh rate, but these things are interpreted by digital devices at a certain resolution, and we want to choose the resolution that will encompass all the meaningful information in the analog video stream we're feeding in, while not going over by too much and wasting bitrate and frame space. Basically we want the digital resolution to match as closely as possible with the composition of the analog streams incoming.

Typical VHS tapes interpret at a resolution approximating 352x240. It's actually a bit lower than that, so we can use that resolution to get a full, safe capture. It's a valid DVD resolution too. Due to the interlaced nature of analog video, capturing at 352x480 is a good way to ensure the smoothness of motion and that every possible field is recorded by your capture device. That's also a valid DVD resolution. Hi8 is a little bit better than VHS, but still severely limited. I have not seen compelling visual evidence that more than ~352 visible lines makes a difference for Hi8. I capture that video at 360x480 so it converts easily without artifacting to a 720x480 DV stream for editing. Ordinarily you don't want to do the "balloon" thing with video, but a straight upscale of 100% on video in this fashion has no visible negative result. The software just doubles every pixel horizontally, and the output from this is all but identical to the original source tape.

You might notice most of these modes don't result in a perfectly proportioned screen on your PC. This is because VGA pixels are square while NTSC/PAL/television "pixels" are rectangular. What looks stretched on your PC will actually look correct on a final DVD, assuming your authoring software is interpreting the file the way we want it to.

If you plan to take a tape and just run it to DVD, no editing, bearing in mind that you can add chaptermarks later, capture it uncompressed (or with huffyuv lossless codec) at 352x480. Then use your TMPGenc to encode it to MPEG-2 automatic VBR CQ, and set your ranges to 2000 lower, 4900 upper, and 75-80% quality (or 3600 average). Import into software such as Ulead DVD Factory, add your menus and chapters, and burn. I prefer to create the video_ts with Ulead and then burn in Nero or Primo for consistency's sake.

For the Hi8's and stuff you need to edit, capture at 360x480 uncompressed with vdub and import into the new Movie Maker 2 beta (which will have a real release at some point soon). This new tool is just awesome - it has most of the functionality of Adobe Premiere without as much bloat and frustration. It did not take me long to switch. MM2 is very easy to learn to use... add your transitions, chop and slice, add your background music, your video effects, mix and match to preference, and then save as a 720x480 DV-AVI file. Again, a simple upscale means no artifacting and a clean, smooth video. This gets converted by your TMPGenc to DVD at the usual bitrates... 2000/7000/avg5000. Beautiful quality. Import the resulting mpeg2 file into your authoring software, such as Ulead, and go to town.

Most of all I would just suggest to you to keep capturing, keep trying, and let your trial and error teach you. I used to make lots and lost of test runs and used up some DVD-RWs trying to get it right, and it was that experience that helped me find the right settings for a given capture. I think you are probably already finding the same thing as you continue working on your video projects. Good luck!!

-MPB/AZ

[reilly]

This is awsome! THANKS!! One quick question. Why do you capture hi8 at 360x480 as opposed to 352x480? Should I use vdub to capture as opposed to the ATI recording software? (I have a ATI 8500DV)

[Luis Neves]

Thanks to all by the helpful comments. (note: Divx is not an option for me, since I wouls like to see the results on my TV with a table DVD reader).

For Hi8 source I have been capturing with Virtualdub at 480x288 (PCTV hardware). The first (480) is just because Hi8 should have a higher vertical resolution than VHS, which is stated as 352. Anyway, I actually doubt if there is any difference to 352x288 (can not see nothing special), and the information of mpb (thanks for the detailed explantion) confirms this.

On the horizontal resolution side, after many tests I can see no difference between 480x288 and 480x576. Am I missing something?

For my Hi8 home videos I don´t mind to put just 2 hours in a DVD; standard MPG2 settings as reffered can do the job. However, in my tests I have tryed 2 pass VBR with 2750 mbps (min 1000, max 5000), which will fit 3 hours in a DVD, and I can not see any difference to the usual 4000 or 5000 standard bitrate. Again, am I missing something? I have also tryed will half D1 and looks as good as full D1, but maybe is better to stick with standard resolutions to avoid problems in the future I guess (I have lots of SVCD´s and now I can not put them on DVD without reencoding or cheating...).

Also tryed TV captures and VHS tapes with 2 pass vbr 2750 and they all look fine (capture at 480x288). Is it the capture resolution that limits the quality and results in no difference between higher and lower bitrates?

brgs

[andie41]

I have seen many posts recommending 352x480 format. I have tried capturing at this size many times and wonder if I am missing something. The quality reduction is so apparent compared to 480x480 or 704x480 or 720x480. Is it just that the 352x480 represents a good compromise for those wanting/needing smaller file sizes?

I can see very little or no difference between 480x480 and 720x480 or an Mpeg using VBR or CBR or CQ; however when I try 352x480, it is very noticeably inferior. What am I missing?

andie

[mpb]

This is awsome! THANKS!! One quick question. Why do you capture hi8 at 360x480 as opposed to 352x480? Should I use vdub to capture as opposed to the ATI recording software? (I have a ATI 8500DV)

Hello,

I do that because I want to save it as DV-AVI for editing purposes, which demands 720x480. But the thing is, there isn't "720" worth of information in a signal line on hi-8. By saving at 360, it makes the upscaling linear - the software just doubles each horizontal pixel, guaranteeing you won't get the "balloon effect" and/or artifacting from the expansion. If I don't intend to edit the source (other than setting chapters) I just use 352x480, since I'd then take the uncompressed AVI and feed it directly to TMPGenc, rather than saving in DV in between.

For the guy who asked why it looks so much worse - remember that you're looking at it on a PC screen. The real answer is that it's an accurate representation of the source material. You can capture a VHS tape at higher resolution, but there isn't that much information to interpolate on it, so it's a really bad case of diminishing returns. When you play that same 352x480 DVD on your television set, assuming you encoded it well with good smoothness and such, it should be very crisp, clear, and artifact-free. On your PC, even some 720x480 commercial DVDs look bad, because your PC DVD is going to play progressive frames in very high clarity, sometimes even zoomed up to screen resolution. Defects that are invisible on even a high-quality television can be apparent on low-quality PC monitors.

[mpb]

This is awsome! THANKS!! One quick question. Why do you capture hi8 at 360x480 as opposed to 352x480? Should I use vdub to capture as opposed to the ATI recording software? (I have a ATI 8500DV)

Oh yes, I forgot - yes, use Virtualdub. the ATI software is nice if you're making a quick-scratch job and compressing on the fly, but if it's video you care to keep, you want to use vdub because of its efficiency, accuracy, lack of framedrops, and easy control over formatting. I use an ATI AIW Radeon also.

[reilly]

MBR, Thanks a million for helping out. I wanted to just post what I've done tonight to see if it makes sense to you

Issue: HI8 video archived to DVD Process
1 - Use VirtualDub to capture
Audio: no compression, 44k, 16 bit, studio
Video: no compression, 360x480, YUV 4:2:2 @ 29.97 fps
Note: 15 min = 8 Gigs
2 - Use TMPGenc to convert to DVD
DVD, NTSC, Audio CBR MPG1 Layer II
Type Non-Interlaced
Video Res: 720x480
Avg Video Bitrate: 5000, Min Video: 2000, Max Video: 7000
Avg Audio Bitrate: 384
2 Pas VBR
Split into two files
3 - Use IfoEdit to make DVD files (VOB, etc)


Do these setting make sense? How about that 8 gig's worth of size? Are there any good docs on using vdub?

[Stansell]

You should capture your audio at 48K to prevent re-sampling. TMPGEnc has to re-sample your audio which could introduce some artifiacts.

I also suggest you use Toolame with TMPGEnc for the audio encoding. I think it does a better quality job than TMPGEnc's built-in audio encoder (it is easy to set up in the Environment dialog box of TMPGEnc)

You might also want to try capturing using the HuffYUV lossless video codec. You then could capture at the full 720x480 resolution and use the same amount of disc space. Although reading some of the above posts, it sounds like 720 x 480 is overkill for hi-8. But if you are going to use that for your final resolution, you might as well capture at that resolution.

[q1aqza]

Not sure if this is a problem or a 'feature' but I started off doing my VHS caps (PAL) in 352 x 576 half D1 but when I authored and burned to DVD I found that chapter selection resulted in a half screen picture for about a second or two before it stretched out again.

I found this so annoying that I changed to capturing VHS at 720 x 576. I assumed that this was normal but as so many people are capturing VHS at half D1 I'm wondering if this problem is caused by my DVD player or my TV set. Has anyone else experienced this?

[mpb]

MBR, Thanks a million for helping out. I wanted to just post what I've done tonight to see if it makes sense to you

Issue: HI8 video archived to DVD Process
1 - Use VirtualDub to capture
Audio: no compression, 44k, 16 bit, studio
Video: no compression, 360x480, YUV 4:2:2 @ 29.97 fps
Note: 15 min = 8 Gigs
3 - Use IfoEdit to make DVD files (VOB, etc)

Do these setting make sense? How about that 8 gig's worth of size? Are there any good docs on using vdub?

Yeah, that's about right. It's very large files as you can see from the uncompressed capture. And 720x480 uncompressed capture is twice as large... very big indeed. They say that true film captured frame by frame with no compression is 25 megabytes per second. I am gradually trying to learn video and prepare my systems to eventually work with video on that scale, like I think many others are here, because we know that will probably be the true limit of "resource need" for manipulating video.

One quick note - use 48k audio for capture. DVD spec wants 48k and your final sound will be better without upsampling. Another poster mentioned using toolame in your TMPGenc. I cannot emphasize enough what a good idea that is. My VCDs and DVDs started sounding immensely better when I added toolame to handle the audio manipulation. It does a very clean job. There are guides to using that and vdub here and also on doom9.org (mostly DVD-specific on that site, mostly capture-specific here).

It's good to also use the huffyuv codec for lossless capture instead of uncompressed, because you have a much smaller output file, but some systems choke on the huffy codec so it's important to be ready to capture uncompressed if you have to. I think it's in the tools downloads section of this site so try it out also. The rest of your process looks pretty much just like what I do. Except I author with Ulead DVD factory so that I can add easy chapterpoints while browsing the video, add menu videos, etc. and then it authors them to a Video_ts on the hard drive, I drag that and an empty audio_ts into a burn in PrimoDVD or Nero, and burn a DVD.

Hope this helps...

[yg1968]

mpb,

For the Hi8's and stuff you need to edit, capture at 360x480 uncompressed with vdub and import into the new Movie Maker 2 beta (which will have a real release at some point soon). This new tool is just awesome - it has most of the functionality of Adobe Premiere without as much bloat and frustration. It did not take me long to switch. MM2 is very easy to learn to use... add your transitions, chop and slice, add your background music, your video effects, mix and match to preference, and then save as a 720x480 DV-AVI file.

I have tried adding an mp3 song to a video with Windows Movie Maker 2.0 beta and the converted audio was just horrible. Haven't you noticed this? (It's OK for voice but horrible for music). I have decided to use Ulead VS instead to edit.

[Luis Neves]

mpb, please give me your comments on these two points:

1) Have you tryed capturing at half resolution (360x240 for you NTSC 360x288 for me as PAL) and check the difference to full horizontal resolution (480/576)? In my tests I could not see any difference (hardware related?).

2) Have you tryed to lower the mpg2 bitrate down to 2000 (2 pass VBR)? I can not see any difference between 5000 average and 2500 average in my tests, including a hand moving fast near the camera. Only down from 2500 these fast moving scenes start to pixelate. With this bitrate we can put 3 hours of film in one DVD...

Tx.

[reilly]

I just finished working with the Huffyuv and toolame encoders. It dropped the size of the end file from 14 mins = 8 gigs, to 46 mins = 6 gigs.. Are there any special settings that I should be making in the Huffyuv or toolame? I just used the defaults.

I'm going to give a full test tonight. I'll let everyone know how it went. Looks like a good "vhs/hi8 to DVD" primer could come out of this.

[reilly]

forgot to ask. In capturing the 40 mins of video last night I dropped 15 frames. I don't know if that is excessive or acceptable. Thoughts? I was using huffyuv instead of uncompressed.

[DJRumpy]

15 frames is negligable, considering that there are 29.97 frames per second (NTSC), and 60 seconds per minute, and 40 minutes to work with ( 60 * 60 * 40), or 144,000 total frames. Hardly a drop in the bucket. The only way you might ever notice, is if they were all dropped close together, which would make your video seem to jump. As long as your audio was locked or 'synced' to your video, you should have no problem.

Use Huffy. Unless your system is having a problem keeping up (it isn't, if you only dropped 15 frames), then there is no point going uncompressed. You can actually use Predict Left for the YUY2 compression method, and Convert to YUY2 for the RGB compression. The docs say it's slightly lossy, but you won't be able to see a difference anyway.

[danman78]

I have done a little bit of this....I was wondering if any of you have ever tried using NEO DVD to capture video

I am not sure what the setting are or what is it dong, But I am more than satisfied with the result. My Hard disk is alway maxed out so it is hard for me to get home videos at 8gig every 15 mins.

Neo dvd captures already compress Mpeg-2, And i have compared it to doing it the "right way" "Hard way" and it I have not seen much of a difference....at least not enough to warrant all the extra steps... for what you all are doing it may be worth a try.........

Neo DVD can be trialed I liked it an bought it. http://www.mediostream.com/

The only thing I dont like is it has crappy menu creation..(its ok but i like more customization)
. but if you want it will fully capture convert Author burn dvd's

Worth a TRY

[DJRumpy]

I wouldn't recommend capturing directly to MPEG, unless your machine is capable of keeping up. Most types of capture hardware that do this, are designed for it out of the box, with special hardware for motion compensation/detection. You will usually notice an increase in bitnoise for video captured directly to MPEG via software.

Capture using the Huffman codecs. The compression ratio is about 2.1:1. Depending on your capture size, the file can run from 20GB, to 60GB for an hour of video (give or take 10GB). If you dont' have the hard drive space, then I'd suggest an upgrade is in order.

[MikeS]

Hey guys, I've been backing up my family's old VHS tapes, is this a good method?

1) Vdub cap at 640x480 @29.97fps, 48kh audio, huffy lossles codec.
2)TMPGEnc SVCD, 2520 bitrate (CBR)
3) burn to cd

Is there a better way of doing it? I tried VBR but it didn't seem any different and took a lot longer.

Thanks

[Luis Neves]

MikeS:

My advice is that you choose a small clip and encode with different settings and look carefully to the final result. I suggest you try 360x240, 360x480, 480x240 and 480x480. I encode to Pal and for me 480x288 gives a perfect result (no difference to 480x572).

On the bitrate side, you can try a 2 pass VBR with an average bitrate of 1600, minimum 300 and maximum 2520; this will fit 50-60 minutes of video in one CD. Again compare with CBR and decide what is best.

Be aware that if you go to SVCD in the future it will be difficult to move your films to DVD, because SVCD is not compatible. I am now capturing and encoding again all my videos to put them in DVD disks and I have to throw away all my SVCD´s...

Good luck.

[MikeS]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't know that about SVCDs. I guess I'll have to get a dvd burner sometime.

[bbeiler]

"Good resourceful thread" thanks

I am also converting my Hi8 tapes to DVD and currently I have been capturing 352x480 with virtual dub (huffy) and then I use mpb method of 2000 min. 4900 max with a CQ of 80. I was just wondering what most of you have been using for the setting in TMPG for the motion search precision?

Motion search estimate or high/highest quality?

My guess would be with the higher bitrates used on DVDR's vs. CDR's the estimate search would be fine (which is 4x faster than highest and 2x faster than high), but I just wondered what some of you are doing.



Thanks for any input.

[Luis Neves]

bbeiler, this is probably an heresy, but I have tested and tested with a short clip, including one hand waving at a few cm of the camara, and using CQ only going down from a bitrate of 2500 the image started to pixelate. Using 2 pass vbr I could go down to an average birate of 2000, with minium of 300 and maximum of 4000. Also tested with high quality, motion search and other settings and could not find any difference in image quality.

In conclusion, motion estimate search is ok and I think you are wasting DVD´s with such high bitrates, you can easily put 3 hours of film in one disk. Don´t forget that we are using analog sources with a low resolution comparing with the capabilities of a DVD!

[bbeiler]

I actually have had very little success with the lower bitrates. Which is why I am getting a DVD burner (actually I have it but I can't use it until tomorrow, christmas thing ). Anyway I have two DVD players that will play SVCD, CVD, VCD but each will only go up to a bitrate of about 3000 total (audio + video). Over the past year I have tried over 200 (not an exageration) minature clips trying to get "original like" quality and have never succeded. My two latest configurations are CVD at a CBR of 2800 (video). Which wasn't bad but it still was a noticable difference from the tape to even an untrained eye (my wife ). I then tried SVCD at a constant quality of 2850 (max.) and I set CQ at 100. Yes, I believe that is very similar to CBR but it was something I hadn't tried. It actually was the best quality to date. However, when I tried a longer clip it started to skip on my player (too high bitrate when combined with 160 audio) plus, at this config. I could only get about 34 min. of video per disc. That's when I gave up on CD'Rs.

Now, that I will have a DVD burner (by tomorrow) I have been capturing and encoding in the mean time so that I will have something to put on as soon as the burner is installed. I really do not want to do another 200 min. clips till I get it right (I am exhausted of running back and forth between computer and DVD player. So is my wife - when I interupt her shows ). I think it would be great to get 3 hours on one disc. Luis Neves mentioned that this is possible and I believe so. I might try an average of 3100 using a VBR. This will give me 3 hours. Even though this is only slightly higher than the CBR's I was previously trying, maybe the maximums (4000 plus) will help the quality. Someone please correct me or make these conclusions conclusive so that I do not need to run back in forth with many trial-and-errors.

I am exhausted.

Thanks for any input. Sorry so long.