Help: how to burn 90-min xvcd on cdr-80 with Nero

[thai_tx]

I encoded a 90-minute movie using XVCD, bitrate about 1000b/s, the file size is about 740MB. When I use Nero to burn in non-compliant VCD, it won't burn because the file size is greater than 700MB on a CD-R 80. Do I miss something here, CD-R 80 can store compliant VCD up to 800MB file size, how come it won't accept file size > 700 MB for non-compliant VCD? Did anyone use Nero to burn file size > 700 MB ok?

[puertorican138]

thai_tx, in Nero, make sure under the Experts Tab to set the Maximum CD Length to 90 minutes. That's how you can burn the full capacity of your CD-R.



Hope That Helps!!! :P

[thai_tx]

puertorican138,
I did that, still does not work. Some body suggests that only a certain CD burner can support 90-min burning. My CD burner is PlexWriter 8/4/32, their web says it does not support 90-min media, but does not say anything about burning 90-min on a CD-R 80.

I wonder is this true that only a certain drive can burn 90-min on a CD-R 80.

[puertorican138]

puertorican138,
I did that, still does not work. Some body suggests that only a certain CD burner can support 90-min burning. My CD burner is PlexWriter 8/4/32, their web says it does not support 90-min media, but does not say anything about burning 90-min on a CD-R 80.

I wonder is this true that only a certain drive can burn 90-min on a CD-R 80.

Yes, it's true.

[hwoodwar]

The main thing that matters is that it takes up 740mb, not that it takes 90min. 740mb will fit on an 80min CD.

CD packaging shows "mode-1" capacity. An 80min disk recorded mode-1 can hold about 700mb. VCD's, CVD's, SVCD's are recorded mode-2. That same CD when recorded mode-2 can hold 800mb. I was never able to get this to work properly in Nero.

If you decide to give up on Nero I suggest you try VCDEasy (you may have to download/install the ForceASPI drivers.) VCDEasy does allow you to put 800mb, mode-2 on an 80min CD.

[Craig Tucker]

thai_tx, in Nero, make sure under the Experts Tab to set the Maximum CD Length to 90 minutes. That's how you can burn the full capacity of your CD-R.



Hope That Helps!!! :P

He is not overburning so this is not necessary. He is trying to fit 90 min on an 80min cdr by using a lower bitrate. If you use a low enough bitrate you can fit 120 min on an 80 min cdr, wont look too great though.

[johneboy]

If you use a low enough bitrate you can fit 120 min on an 80 min cdr, wont look too great though.

I beg to differ.. i have the sum of all fears (123min) on a 80min CDr. and it looks just as good as the 2 CD compliant VCD of the same movie.

[Craig Tucker]

There are loads of threads on this forum, arguing the pro's and cons of putting 120min on 1 CDR. The main thing is that if you are happy with the quality then fine, personally I can tell the difference on a 36" widescreen TV set.

[johneboy]

There are loads of threads on this forum, arguing the pro's and cons of putting 120min on 1 CDR. The main thing is that if you are happy with the quality then fine, personally I can tell the difference on a 36" widescreen TV set.

i agree.. quality is in the "eye of the beholder" as they say
on my old fashion square tv, it looks just fine..however, i believe everyone should at least try it, so they too can make their own judgement
8)

[vitualis]

The main thing that matters is that it takes up 740mb, not that it takes 90min. 740mb will fit on an 80min CD.

Exactly. If you file is really only 740 MB in size, you should be able to fit it on an 80min CD with plenty of space to spare. In fact, you could fit it on a 74 min CD with some minor overburning...

I think that your likely problem is that your XVCD MPEG-1 clip hasn't been properly multiplexed and so it is being autopadded by Nero (Nero will remux your clips and if it isn't in the correct pack size, you will end up "bloating" your clips). This autopadding phenonmenon occurs with VCDImager and its guis too.

To fix your problem, you should remux your clips with TMPGEnc: Files --> MPEG Tools --> Simple Multiplex.

Change the setting to MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard) and save to a new file. That's it.

In the future when you encode with TMPGEnc for XVCD MPEG-1 files, make sure you change the System --> Stream Type to MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard).

Regards.

[vcdfreak]

What Nero version are you using?

Have you checked the comparison list (CD Writer) on whether your drive can support overburning?

I burnt many ~800MB VCDs before. They are OK.

But it won't work on some of my older CD-Rs that support only 700MB unless I overburn by adjusting the settings in the expert settings.

[Craig Tucker]

Read the whole thread, he is not trying to overburn

[vcdfreak]

thai_tx, don't be fooled by the minute rating of the CD-R. Your CD-Writer won't care whether it's a 74 min, 80 min, 90 min or 99 min Disc, it just knows whether it's 650MB, 700MB, 800MB or 850MB.

The minute rating is just an estimate. It varies according to the bitrate of the video and/or audio. Not sure how the numbers are based on.


In case you are interested in the boring calculation part, else skip:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

VCD (Video) - 1150Kbps
----------------------------
1150 Kbits/s =
1.15 Mbits/s =
*0.1437 MBytes/s =
8.63 MB/min

* 1 byte = 8 bits


VCD (Audio Layer II) - 224kbps
-------------------------------------
224 Kbits/s =
0.224 Mbits/s =
0.028 MBytes/s =
1.68 MB/min

VCD (Video + Audio) - [Applies to CBR ONLY!!!]
------------------------
8.63 MB/min + 1.68 MB/min = 10.31 MB/min


This means your 700MB of CD-R can only store up to 68 minutes of VCD (CBR 1150kbps)!


In other words, if your VCD (CBR 1150kbps) is of 60 min long, you will be required 638.25MB of disk space whether on your HardDisc [HD] or your Compact Disc - Recordable [CD-R].



Another example, CDDA (Audio CD Track):

CDDA - 1.4Mbits/s
---------------------
1.4Mbits/s =
0.175 MBytes/s
10.5 MBytes/min

This means your 700MB of CD-R can only store up to 66.6 minutes of CD tracks!



Try this calculation on your XVCD, it should jive I guarantee!


Homework, what if your MP3 bitrate is 128kbits/s or 160kbits/s, ... ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When you are trying to burn 740MB of data onto a 700MB capacity disc, you are actually trying to overburn.


Our beloved moderator (craigtucker), this is the meaning I get when I first read the message. Hope you understand why I posted the earlier reply. But I admit I did not read all the following threads in details, I just browsed through.

[vitualis]

@ vcdfreak: It is time you read up on how CD-Rs actually work and re-visit your maths... The assertion that the "minutes is only an estimate" is completely and utterly false. Indeed, it is the the minutes that gives the unambiguous capacity of the media. The "megabytes" rating is in fact the "estimate" and gives the approximate capacity under MODE1 sectors.

74 min / 650 MB CD-R has 333,000 sectors. (FYI: 75 sectors per second)
80 min / 700 MB CD-R has 360,000 sectors.

CD-ROM uses MODE 1 or MODE 2 Form 1 sectors which gives you 2048 bytes per sector of user data (the rest taken up by ECC and EDC and some other things besides).

Thus:
74 min / 650 MB CD-R for CD-ROMs:
333,000 x 2048 bytes = 650.39 MB of capacity.

Similarly, for 80 min / 700 MB CD-R for CD-ROMs:
360,000 x 2048 bytes = 703.125 MB of capacity.

For those who don't known, this is where the "650 MB" and "700 MB" ratings come from. They refer to CD-ROM user capacity.

-------------------------------

Audio CDs are burnt so that ALL the space available in a sector are given to audio data (i.e., 2352 bytes of user data per sector).

Thus:
74 min / 650 MB of CD-R for Audio CDs:
333,000 x 2352 bytes = 746.93 MB of capacity.

If you work out how much 16-bit stereo PCM audio sampled at 44.1 kHz, it not surprisingly works out to be exactly 74 minutes.

For those who don't know, this is where the "74 min" and "80 min" ratings come from. They refer to audio CD user capacity.

Contrary to vcdfreak's incorrect calculations, you can store exactly 74 min of audio on a 74 min CD-R without overburning. Similarly, you can store exactly 80 min of audio on an 80 min CD-R (actually, most 80min CD-R are actually only 79min 57sec 74frames).

------------------------------------------------

How about VCDs?

These use MODE2 Form2 sectors which give 2324 bytes of user data per sector (the rest is taken up by EDC, some overhead and some other things besides).

Thus, for 74 min / 650 MB CD-R:
333,000 x 2324 bytes = 738.04 MB

And for 80 min / 700 MB CD-R:
360,000 x 2324 bytes = 797.88 MB

Now, as S/VCDs have some overhead that is unavoidable, the max capacity in terms of the size of one mpeg file you can fit on a disc without overburning should be taken as about 2-3 MB LESS.

If you work this out for standard VCD MPEG-1 files, it works out to be just under 74 min of video for a 74 min CD and just under 80 min of video for an 80 min CD.

This is all without overburning.

I hope this clarifies things!

Regards.

[thai_tx]

Hi,
Thank you all for the response. After checking all my Nero setup, I was able to burn that 740 MB XVCD. But I had the "padding" problem as someone mentions. The burn fails at the end, I look in the MPEGAV directory, the DAT file size becomes 850MB. I'll try the re-mux trick.

thai_tx

[vcdfreak]

Virtualis, burning 740MB data on 700MB capacity disc is not considered overburning? I must be too dumb to understand this concept.

I cannot see how data can be recorded in time instead of in bits and bytes. Probably CDs of different rating, record with different gap distance between bits?



So 650min (74min) disc capacity is just an estimate?

If the gap between bits is constant, the disc capacity should be constantly say 650MB?


But why video with higher bitrate reduce the amount of video time that can be recorded? Isn't bitrate that controls the filesize and thus the amount of recording time? I guess I need to go back to college or work for more years as an engineer.


Anyway, forgive me to skip reading the tutorials. The math I posted always works for me down to very small margin of error to decide whether to overburn or not. Again, use it at your own risk. You can bar me from posting in this web site anymore. I don't mind. Save my time. Just trying to help out.



More Correction for earlier posting:
Note sure about 99 min CD-R and its actual capacity. I was too bold to put down things that I wasn't sure. I only know the following relationship:
650MB - 74 min
700MB - 80 min
800MB - 90 min


You can overburn only if both your hardware and software can support overburning (bold attempt to push over the envelope).

If your drive can support up to 90 min, just get a 800MB disc. Problem solved. I seldom run into 80min CD-R nowadays. I am using 90 min CD-Rs most of the time and they are very cheap and common now. In fact, it's hard to get a 80 min CD-R for my case.






If you insist on getting 740MB on 700MB CD-R, check if your writer can support both overburning AND 90min recording.

Hope this helps a bit.



P.S.: Earlier CD-R manufacturing technology cannot produce 700MB/800MB with in good quality and quantity as the dye closed to the outer edge of the CD is hard to control. Sometimes you can even see minor mechanical damage to the edge of the 90min CD-R and instantly you tell yourself not to burn closed to the edge(~800MB) of the CD-R. After years of fine-tuning, the manufacturing process is ready to produce good quality dye and flawless plastic molding closed to edge of a CD-R.

Sadly, this still does not apply to CD-RW.

[thai_tx]

Hi all,
Re-muxing using non-standard VCD with TMPGEnc did fix the Nero padding problem. Thanks again.

[vitualis]

Virtualis, burning 740MB data on 700MB capacity disc is not considered overburning? I must be too dumb to understand this concept.

Read the above post again. Carefully.

Then I suggest have a good long read of the CD-R FAQ.

I cannot see how data can be recorded in time instead of in bits and bytes. Probably CDs of different rating, record with different gap distance between bits?

It is recorded it bits and bytes.

You don't seem to understand how the different burning "modes" play a part.

The RAW CAPACITY of a CD-R insofar as user capacity is 2352 bytes per sector.

There are 75 sectors per second.

Use these simple numbers to work out exactly how much space a CD-R can hold.

If the gap between bits is constant, the disc capacity should be constantly say 650MB?

But why video with higher bitrate reduce the amount of video time that can be recorded? Isn't bitrate that controls the filesize and thus the amount of recording time? I guess I need to go back to college or work for more years as an engineer.

READ the above post CAREFULLY.

The TOTAL CAPACITY of a 74min/650 MB CD-R is much higher than 650 MB. It is around 747 MB. I did the calculations above.

Part of this capacity is used up for standard CD-ROMs (i.e., MODE1 sectors) as ECC to ensure data integrity. This is what gives the usually described capacity of 650 MB. (i.e., of the 2352 bytes per sector that is available as a total, only 2048 bytes can be used as user data).

For S/VCD and audio CDs, MORE of each sector is available as user data -- this is at the expense primarily of ECC. For S/VCD, for the video tracks, you have 2324 bytes out of the total of 2352 bytes per sector available as user data.

For audio CD, the ENTIRE SECTOR is available for user data.

The calculations for the subsequent user available capacities were calculated before.

The given "megabyte" rating of each disc is an approximate capacity if you record in MODE1 sectors only. The number of sectors a disc has is the fixed value.

For example, a 74min disc as 333,000 sectors. An 80min disc has 360,000 sectors.

You can use the total number of sectors to work out the total capacity of a disc in any burning mode.

In the strict sense, overburning a disc is when you burn MORE sectors than a disc is rated at. This is possible because manufacturers create discs with some leaway and also because you can relatively safely burn user data into areas you are not supposed to (primarily, the lead-out area of a disc).

Anyway, forgive me to skip reading the tutorials. The math I posted always works for me down to very small margin of error to decide whether to overburn or not. Again, use it at your own risk. You can bar me from posting in this web site anymore. I don't mind. Save my time. Just trying to help out.

Well, obviously, your margin of error is much larger than you thought. If you do the maths correctly, there is essentially NO margin of error as you can calculate the exact number of sectors required.

It is not a matter of "barring" you. It is a matter of correcting an error in the forum. I'm sorry if you can't see it, but your interpretation of CD disc capacities is entirely incorrect.

Regards.

[Craig Tucker]

Virtualis, burning 740MB data on 700MB capacity disc is not considered overburning? I must be too dumb to understand this concept.

You must be

As vitualis explained, in mode 2 you can get nearly 800 MB of data on a 700MB CD WITHOUT OVERBURNING.

VCD compliant mpeg is 10mb/min (approx) You can get 80 minutes of VCD on an 80 minute disc WITHOUT OVERBURNING. Do the maths 80 X 10 = 800

[vitualis]

Hi all,
Re-muxing using non-standard VCD with TMPGEnc did fix the Nero padding problem. Thanks again.

I thought it would...

To prevent this from happening again (and to save time doing the remux thing), on future XVCD encodings, makes sure you set the TMPGEnc template to:

System --> Stream Type --> MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard).

This will ensure that the MPEG-1 (although non-compliant) is muxed in such a way that the VCD authoring proggy (Nero and VCDImager) will accept it without mindless autopadding it.

Regards.

[mrj03]

If you use a low enough bitrate you can fit 120 min on an 80 min cdr, wont look too great though.

I beg to differ.. i have the sum of all fears (123min) on a 80min CDr. and it looks just as good as the 2 CD compliant VCD of the same movie.

Could you please explain how you got that to work on 1 CDR because that would be very helpfull....
thanks....

[vcdfreak]

Virtualis, burning 740MB data on 700MB capacity disc is not considered overburning? I must be too dumb to understand this concept.

You must be

As vitualis explained, in mode 2 you can get nearly 800 MB of data on a 700MB CD WITHOUT OVERBURNING.

VCD compliant mpeg is 10mb/min (approx) You can get 80 minutes of VCD on an 80 minute disc WITHOUT OVERBURNING. Do the maths 80 X 10 = 800

Vitualis, thanks for your explanation again. It clears up my earlier misconception. Now I just realize I have been using 80min CD-R instead of 90min ones. That also explains why my 90min CD-Rs cost so much less (in fact they are 80min, since there's no markings that can be found anywhere, it's totally blank top type).

However, craigtucker (moderator#2), I guess you need to pick up moderating skills from Virtualis as I did smell gunpowder from your last reply. I just missed out the Mode 2 thing. Your insult is not appreciated. If you read my calculation correctly and carefully, I did perform the math for how much space a minute of VCD(CBR 1150kbps) should cost exactly: 10.31 MB/min. Just to make sure other readers get the right info from my calculation. In fact, I wasn't showing any math of the capacity of a CD-R. (Weird, both Virtualis and you assume I was.) I was just trying to show the calculation of file size and to make a point that bitrate is an important factor that affects the file size. I was not trying to show off either. This is very important for authoring planning. You can tell the filesize even before you encode. For those who dislike cutting MPEG (like myself), it's a way you can predict the cost of the disk space required soon. Yes, I also need to admit that I was far off-topic when I show the calculation. Please feedback to my email account directly if you have any. You can say anything in the email.

[Craig Tucker]

It was not meant to be an insult, more a light hearted quip, hence the . Sorry you took it the wrong way

[vcdfreak]

If you use a low enough bitrate you can fit 120 min on an 80 min cdr, wont look too great though.

I beg to differ.. i have the sum of all fears (123min) on a 80min CDr. and it looks just as good as the 2 CD compliant VCD of the same movie.

Could you please explain how you got that to work on 1 CDR because that would be very helpfull....
thanks....

If my calculation approach is correct (based on my earlier post for this subject), to fit a 120 min on a 800MB CD-R (80 min mode 2 [just learn today!]), I need to change the bitrate(CBR) to:


Audio
-----
224kbits/s = 0.028MBytes/s = 1.68MBytes/min
120 min then requires 120 x 1.68 MB = 202MB (~200MB).


Video
-----
800MB - 200MB (used by audio) = 600MB left
600MBytes/120min = 5MBytes/min = 0.08MBytes/s = 0.67Mbits/s = 670kbits/s


For me, I never need to remux when I burn XVCD using Nero as I do the following in TMPGEnc:
Load -> open Extra Folder-> unlock.mcf
then in Video Settings, I choose either CBR/CQ with the bitrate value I want.

Nero will accept the MPEG generated although it's not compliant to any standard.




If my video if of high details, I would choose CBR at max I can afford. If the nature of the video is of slower type, then I would prefer CQ to save some disk space at slow scenes while preserving the quality. As for VBR, I don't use it as my Media Player has problem reading the file, I have to send to DVD player to preview. Of course, 2-pass VBR is always the best in terms of quality and space-saving.

If my calculation above is correct, I might first try out CBR of 670kpbs and then check the quality. I am open for any comment. Please correct if I'm wrong. I learn more if you dig out more problem from my postings. Like today, I just learn a lots about CD-R capacity calculation. Come on guys, give me your best shot!

I can see one problem instantly. Such a low bitrate of 670kbps should render horrible video quality. Then 2-pass VBR should be considered in this case. Also getting a 90 min/99 min CD-R should help if your writer can support.


I am expecting someone to suggest a software for this. I then learn to use 1 new handy app.

[Craig Tucker]

If you are really interested in getting 2 hours on 1 disc, check out kwags site.

http://www.kvcd.net/