What Format Is Best ? VCD/SVCD/CVD for TV Viewing

[hardwork12]

With much help from many of you I can finally capture my video at 720x480 29.97fps (2% dropped frames) with VirtualVCR and the modified drivers. This seems good enough for VCD/SVCD/CVD Is that correct? . I captured using huffy 2.1.1 compression. Converted to *.mpg with TMPGEnc and burned to VCD using nero. Worked fine now I want to make sure I get the best possible quality.

My project is to convert all my home movies from 8mm tapes to a CD format that I can view on my TV (with a DVD player). I want to be able to just convert the entire 30 hrs I have now and then later edit it down to say 2hrs of quality CUTS. Given that as my project which format is best. I am confused.

My confusion/lack of understanding:

VCD I got figured out I think. Not bad but not as good as the 8mm source.

SVCD seems like it is the wrong aspect ratio it is listed at 480x480 for NTSC standard. This is square so that does not seem to make sense but I guess a small border on both sides is not that bad. Is that what happens? Also confusing me is that the video is listed as MPEG2 and the audio is listed at MPEG1? An option on capture is interleave which I thought interleaves audio and video so do I have to cature without interleave?

CVD is listed at 352 x 480 so for this to be the right aspect ratio the 480 would have to be interlaced. Is the 480 interlaced?

What do you think is best for this kind of project.

From advice in other posts it seems TMPGEnc full version can do both encoding and editing for mpeg1 and mpeg2 so does that mean that TMPGEnc can encode for any of the three options.

NERO only has a choice for VCD none for SVCD or CVD so what program do forum members use to burn SVCD and CVD?

Can SCVD an CVD be converted to VCD ? That way if I do all my editing in SVCD or CVD I can still convert to VCD if I have DVD player compatibility problems.

Thanks ALL. Sorry If i repeated myself from other posts and for all these question in one post but I felt they are all related . I tried to pull it all together here so maybe this would help all of you help me and maybe more useful to others.

[LanceSteel]

SVCD seems like it is the wrong aspect ratio it is listed at 480x480 for NTSC standard. This is square so that does not seem to make sense but I guess a small border on both sides is not that bad. Is that what happens? Also confusing me is that the video is listed as MPEG2 and the audio is listed at MPEG1?

I can answer a few of the questions...
There is no "small border" that goes around the picture. The picture gets stretched to fill the screen (So the picture looks just like it would if you were playing it from the 8mm tape.) The 480x480 is the resolution NOT the aspect ratio (which is still 4:3.)
Yes the video compression is Mpeg2 but the audio is compressed as Mpeg1 Layer-II which is standard.

[macleod]

NERO only has a choice for VCD none for SVCD or CVD so what program do forum members use to burn SVCD and CVD?

there is a nero SVCD plugin that will allow you to burn the CD in SVCD and CVD format(with compliance turned off)

Can SCVD an CVD be converted to VCD ? That way if I do all my editing in SVCD or CVD I can still convert to VCD if I have DVD player compatibility problems.

yes. you would re-encode using TMPGENC, CCE(frameserved) or another encoder. Just remember to downsample the audio from 48 to 44.1 to make sure it is vcd compliant

[crahak]

2% seems to be a lot to me. I never dropped more than a frame per 5 minutes - at worst. That one frame per (5*60*29.976) which is like 0.01% You might get into some sync issues at some point. As far as quality, it really depends on how it's encoded... I like DivX a lot, otherwise, I make CVDs, to make it easier if I ever want to reburn them on DVD's... I find it looks far better than VCD's, and at least as good as SVCDs... but there's the encoding issue still. Try and see for yourself? Good luck

[hardwork12]

Thanks. Sorry for not responding to your very helpful posts in an attempt to help me understand this stuff. Was away a few days to watch my daugter play Ice Hockey for her College

macleod

Thanks I will look for the NERO plugin. CCE Framserved? Guess I will have to look into frameserving not sure what it is but at least you have given me the terminology to start figuring things out. I hope.

What is compliance?

LanceSteel

I am starting to understand Its just when I capture using VirtualVCR what I see on the screen is the shape based on the resolution chosen so 480x480 is square and the picture makes things look narrower and taller than "real Life". So I guess I am still confused. Edit since last postBUT you are right I tried capturing 480x480 and then encoded to mpeg with TMPGEnc and the picture had the correct aspect ratio. Guess the "magic" is in the encoding software.

crahak

Great input. I assumed that dropped frames meant I lost a piece of sound and video. This is important since now I understand its only a loss in video. Now I know I need to do a little system optimization or lower the capture resolution to avoid droped frames. If I go SVCD what would be some lower resolution settings that shoould give me good results.

EDIT Since Post I Tried virtualVCR and still was getting 2% dropped frames. FOUND THE PROBLEM For some reason VirtualVCR was defaulting to 29.47 FPS and my source is 29.97 FPS. I set the FPS to 29.97 and captures for 15 min and 0 dropped frames

All:

I still don't seem to have a grasp of Resolution vs aspect ratio. I know ultimately that I want and aspect ratio of 4:3. How do I figure out what capture resolution will encode properly for VCD and SVCD

Thanks again

[hwoodwar]

The best resolutions to encode at, are the resolutions for the specific standard you want to use. Also, the general consensus from what I've read is to capture at the same resolution you will encode at so: VCD 352 x 240 NTSC (352 x 288 PAL), CVD 352 x 480 NTSC (352 x 576 PAL) and SVCD 480 x 480 NTSC (480 x 576 PAL.) Both CVD and SVCD are interlaced.

You can set the 4:3 aspect ration in TMPGenc. I believe it is in the advanced settings and it usually defaults to it.

Also, you may want to try using VCDEasy to burn. It's free and myself and some others think it helps to produce a better quality VCD than Nero. I have both and have compared them with the same mpeg. I can see some difference.

I myself am converting many VHS tapes to CVD. I've tested VCD, CVD, SVCD and all of Kwag's XVCD/XSVCD templates and CVD seems to give me the best final output with the tapes/hardware/software I am using.

[crahak]

Hi again. Well, you can do a 4:3 CVD easily. I find this gives me the best results. I like capturing at full resolution and then reencoding it at 352x480. It will give you better results (I do mine at 640x480 always). Also, I don't encode my CVD's interlanced. That might depend on your encoder, but I'm thinking most of 'em would have options for that. In fact, I deinterlace on the fly when I capture (most of the time with a mjpeg codec), then once it's captured, I encode it to CVD. Works great. Anyways. Glad you solved your frame dropping problems good luck again. (Oh, sure, you can read our posts, but I think the best way to see what's best for you is still trying and seeing for yourself)

[hardwork12]

hwoodwar
Got VCDeasy to play with it but even with the latest ASPI drivers from Adaptec the program does not find my plexwriter 40/12/40A. I will have to try to figure that out. thanks for the recommendation. If you have any ideas on what I might try the information would be appreciated.


crahak

Curious why you deinterlace since the TV displays interlaced pictures or at least mind does in the Component video input setting?

TMPGEnc has a filter called Deinterlace so this may do what you said

You are right again! I do have to try but the answers here help me figure out what to try so I can learn.

Now I can capture 640X480 zero dropped frames I tried it .
TMPGEnc can encode to mpeg-1 and mpeg2 if i pay for the full version I do not see any mode for CVD encoding. Also the full version cost $$ would rather find a free/shareware program.

What are you using to encode to CVD?

VirtualVCR does not seem to have an on the fly capture with deinterlace that I can find.

What are you using to capture on the fly deinterlaced 640x480

I just can't seem to find the tools for CVD's they must be there somewhere


Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MrKGB]

hardwork12,
I am doing exactly the same project as you, also 8mm, not Hi8.
I am also capturing using VirtualVCR @ 480x480 and PicVideo MJPEG codec @ 19 (this allows to capture 3 times more video) , then edit it by VDub. I also apply some smoothing - sharpening - contrasting - antishaking filters using VDub. You can apply deinterlacing at this point, but some people are saying that this is not a great idea.

I encode using TMPGenc, the settings which I use - Constant Quality 0-4000 kbps, quality 50, high quality motion search. I was trying CCE, but didn't like the results.

I am burning SVCDs using Nero Burning ROM 5.5.9.9. No plugin is required for SVCD.
VCDeasy also doesn't burn for me, so I just create images using it and burn them using nero.
[/i]

[crahak]

If you're using tmpgenc, you might consider using kwag's templates (http://www.kvcd.net/dvd-models.html). You can encode CVD's with tmpgenc easily. A CVD is 352x480. It seems to give me better results than (X)VCD and (X)SVCD. Good luck again

[hardwork12]

crahak

EDIT ( 11/18 )


Which Template do you use? Do you use the KVCD 352x240, 352x480 or the 704x480? I tried the template "KVCD-CQ-352x480-_NTSCFilm_-PLUS.mcf" and set the FPS to 29.97 and changed the stream type to mpeg2 (if I leave it set like the template at mpeg1 i get the wrong encoded aspect ratio of 4:6 (can see this in the preview in TMPGEnc).

I am unclear if when using VCDeasy if I want to Burn SVCD or VCD2.0.

ALL

How to burn CVD's some quotes from above replys:

EDIT: 11/17 i got VCD easy to work now so I eliminated questions related to this issue.

there is a nero SVCD plugin that will allow you to burn the CD in SVCD and CVD format(with compliance turned off)

The above quote states "compliance turned off" I just do not know what compliance is or how to turn it off. Now in VCDeasy I chose SVCD 1.0 and at the bottom of the window it has two "check boxes".

• 1) "Analyze MPEG files" do I want this checked? I am trying to do a CVD.
  2) "Perform some MPEG Compliance checks". Do I want this checked? the above quote stated "with compliance turned off" for CVD.
  3) Is SVCD 1.0 the same as CVD the same as KVCD's (X2). I think this is confusing me here I know they all MPEG-2 but can not figure out the difference. Also I can not figure out if they can all be played on a standard DVD player for the TV.

THANKS

[MrKGB]

hardwork12,

Before going any further, check which format (CVD or SVCD) your DVD player can play.
You can find this info in section OTHER->"DVD Players" of this site.
It is possible that your player doesn't play any of them. This is normally the case for Sony players.

[hardwork12]

MrKGB:

Glad you asked. I was looking at the DVD compatibility last night to see how much a new DVD player would cost that can handle SVCD and CVD.

Right now I know my DVD player will not play any of these formats except VCD. Mine was made before SVCD existed I think its a Toshiba SD1200 I will try a test SVCD anyway.

ALL:

If this is a bad way to go speak up I am still learning what all these formats are and which is best but I am not fully there yet with my understanding.

What I want to do is preserve my home videos in a format that is at least or close to the quality of the original. I am probably limited by how good my capture system is. These videos are standard VHS and mostly 8mm. The key for me is which format to preserve these in using my CD-RW. From what I can tell either CVD, SVCD or KVCD's (X2) meets this requirement Is this correct? Since my DVD player can not play any of these three formats I can not test for myself which is best so the advice all of you give me is very useful to me. Yes I can preview them on my PC but the TV playback I am sure is quite different in quality.

Once I have a digital form of these that I can edit down to a 2 hours video of "highlights"plus I will have all the original movies if I want them. Now my concern is that these formats will come and go but as long as the encoded information is good quality then I expect that I can convert to the newer formats as they come along if I need to. Soon DVD burners will be cheap they are already down to $250 so that upgrade for my PC is probably a year away At which point I can encode to DVD and ensure compatibility.

I have to research this more but it looks like SVCD and CVD as well as KVCD's (X2) can be encoded to DVD at some later date. I hope this is correct. Is this correct?

My strategy is to live with my current DVD player for a while and encode the 2hr "highlight" to both VCD and SVCD/CVD/KVCD's (X2) and later either I will have a DVD burner or a DVD player that can play SVCD, CVD or KVCD's (X2).

So which format would you recommend based on my strategy?


What do you all think am I on the wrong track here????????????

THANKS AGAIN

[SatStorm]

Standard VCD and CVD are the only CD - Video based formats which can be used "as is" to DVD video. Only audio must change (upsampling 44100 (CD) to 48000 (DVD))

Kwag templates are good -X- Tampletes: Some work more or less. Officially, on DVD discs, you can use mpeg 1 only on CCIF resolution (352 X 288/240). Kwag use mpeg 1 to 1/2 D1 CCIR-601 resolution. This is -X-. There are players which supports that, but those doesn't make it standard. It is -X-

Myself, use a -X- way of CVD: With 48000audio and max bitrate far beyond the legal for SVCD/CVD (which is 2520 by the way, if your audio is 224kb/s)

You questions was: "What Format Is Best ? VCD/SVCD/CVD for TV Viewing"

All formats are good for standard (non HDTV or Pixel Plus) TVs. For Standard solutions, VCD is good for low resolution sources, CVD for almost all the analogue grubbed stuff (including VHS/SVHS) and SVCD for DVD ripping and grabbed (as is) DVB transmissions.

CVD has less blocks than SVCD on the same bitrates but it has slightly less sharpness. The true benefit of CVD is the resolution it uses: It is valid (legal) for DVD (like VCD's one).
So it is: SVCD 1 versus CVD 2
The choice is yours.

Beyond that, -X- formats are good. Myself use a xSVCD format, like sefy's SxVCD for most VHS tapes. It looks almost like my old crappy LP VHS tapes I record the last 10 years.

For a 1:1 digital copy of your VHS/SVHS, you have to move to DVD if your goal is a legal/standard format. With TMPGenc Plus, you need a 2pass VBR with 2000min 4000average, 6000 maximum bitrate to succeed this, on special really hard to encode tapes. With CCE 2,5+ a 4 pass VBR with an average of 3200 succeed perfect results (but less sharpness that TMPGenc IMO)

[hardwork12]

SatStorm

I really appreciate the very comprehensive and complete answer. I will have to research some of the terms and formats like -x- that you bring up. I have to take a step back here as I have only been into this capture and encoding for a whole 3 weeks so I can not comprehend all of your valuable input yet. I will figure it out over time. It does help me better formulate my questions and also you did help narrow the field since the best two choices are SVCD (seems like for DVD rips and encoding) and CVD seems best for my project since it is a DVD compatible format that is better than VCD. Also I did not know I could upsample the audio from 44100 (what I use now) to 48000 (DVD) so that helps me tremendously.

ALL

So now direct questions on CVD:

I am still confused on CVD as it seems to be a hybrid between VCD and SVCD. So what settings do I use to encode a "TRUE" CVD disk this is something I can not seem to grasp. Also what is the optimal capture resolution for encoding to CVD I was planing on 704x480 but maybe 352x480 is better.

Now I am using Virtualdub for capture and using the Huffy 2.1.1 YUY2 4.?.? interleaved.

Encoding with TMPGEnc. So to encode to CVD what do I set the parameters to (maybe there is a template I can download for NTSC 4:3 which already has the optimal settings for encoding for CVD):
VIDEO:
Stream Type: MPEG1 or MPEG2?
Size: 352x480?
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 525line (NTSC) ?
Frame rate: 29.97?
Rate control MODE: ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA
Bitrate: 2520?
VBV Buffer size: 0 (automatic)?
Motion search precision: ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA

The other parameters are greyed out.

AUDIO:
Do I want MPEG1 audio layer II or layer I concidering the future possibility of going to DVD.

GOP structure: ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA

Quantize matrix: Default?

System: ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA

Last but not least:

I have Nero and VCDeasy and both work I just do not know what to set the Burn for:

VCDeasy VCD1.1, VCD2.0, SVCD1.0

Nero: NTSC VCD, NTSC SVCD

Thank you

[energy80s]

CVD VIDEO:

Stream Type: MPEG2 SVCD
Size: 352x480
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 525line (NTSC) - depends on your source file.
Frame rate: 29.97
Bitrate: 2496
Motion search precision: High Quality

AUDIO: MPEG1 audio layer II at 224kbps - 44.1kHz for Standard CVD's, 48kHz for DVD audio.

GOP structure: 18 (for NTSC)

Quantize matrix: Default

Last but not least to burn:

Nero: NTSC SVCD - turn off compliance.

[hardwork12]

energy80s:

Thanks.

Is there any software that would allow for me to play the CVD on my PC to test that my CVD's are good. My current DVD player will not play this format.

I assume then that this is an MPEG2 and that I would use the cut and merge features of TMPGEnc for MPEG2 to cut sections out for edits. Is this correct?

Also can CVD be encoded to VCD. I only ask this since my current DVD player will not handle the CVD format. I will get a new DVD player at some point that will handle CVD, DVD recordable, MP3, SVCD, VCD as a minimum just not yet.

[energy80s]

Win Media Pleyer will play it correctly aspected, but you'll need an MPEG2 codec. You would be better off getting a copy of Power DVD or WinDVD.

Yes, you can use the Edit feature of TMPGenc but I don't find it very accurate.

You can re-encode to VCD, although I would think you would be better off making a VCD at the same time as the CVD from your original master file.

[hardwork12]

energy80s: Thanks again

You have a good point CD-R media is cheap and encoding time is at night so who cares how long it takes I will be sleeping

AUDIO: MPEG1 audio layer II at 224kbps - 44.1kHz for Standard CVD's, 48kHz for DVD audio.

Since I want to ensure that I can convert to DVD-r in the future do I capture and encode at the 48Khz now or up-convert it later and just use 44.1khz now.

[energy80s]

If your DVD player can handle 48k audio off a CDR then encode at 48k.

[SingSing]

Ney, unless you have a dog can hear the different.

[hardwork12]

Just Checking

When I encode using TMPGEnc I want to have the de-interlace set is that correct?

Even though it is 352x480 why is a CVD non-interlaced assuming that I am supposed to de-interlace during encoding?

[hwoodwar]

Hardwork12:

I see you got VCDEasy working. I tried to skim through all the current posts to see what additional info I could provide.

From what I can see about your SD1200, in the DVD players section it has problems with some brands of CDR's. So, if a CDR doesn't work try CD-RW's.

Also "TML" got it to plays SVCD's created in VCDEasy. What he did was:

1. Click the Settings icon.
2. Click on the (S)VCD Player icon.
3. In the SVCD section in the middle of the page check all three options.
4. Create/burn SVCD as normal

If this does create a compatible SVCD for you and you still want to try CVD then try unchecking the middle option: Update scan data offsets...(as this effectively converts a 352 x 480 res MPEG-2 to 480 x 480 MPEG-2 making it back into an SVCD.) and creating a test CVD.

If the four above mentioned steps do not work. Do a search through the forums and FAQ's for "VCD Header Trick" that will probably get you going with SVCD format.

[hardwork12]

hwoodwar

You are too kind this is one long thread now.

As long as I use Fuji CD-R and keep my record speed down at 16X (anything higher and you get pixelation) then my VCD's play fine. And you are absolutely right CD-RW work great as well. May go to Best Buy this weekend and try a few DVD players and see what my CVD looks like and if they work

As for the "header trick" when I try this I get an error something like "buffer underrun" your video may not work. Well what happens is that with the header changed my DVD player will recognize the disk with the time of the movie being twice what it actually is. It plays the sound fine but the video is not there its Black.

I will try the method you listed that is different maybe it will work for me that would be great. I will also do more research on the "header trick" maybe others have had the same problem.

Thanks again!!!

[pburdett]

I just want to say thanks to hardwork12 and all of your helpers on this thread for going through the issues so thoroughly and tenaciously. I am printing out this whole thread as a manual. I suspect a lot of others will be doing the same thing.

Keep the questions and answers coming!

[pburdett]

crahak

You suggested earlier that captured video should be deinterlaced? Why? I thought I read that interlacing is good for viewing stuff on TV. Since TV viewing is the goal here, wouldn't you want to leave the video interlaced?

[hardwork12]

Another post to look at:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124862

Gets into the interlace issue as well as optimal settings for TMPGEnc. This is still a thread in progress but at least useful to me.

Specifically look at the response from adam the rest is to try to understand the other settings pertinent to TMPGEnc to generate CVD's.