looking for TV-tuner & capture card recommendations

[Ivan72]

Hi folks,

I am thinking about getting a TV-Tuner and Capture Card for my newly ordered Dell-PC with DVD burner.

I've spend the last days gathering information about the various possible solutions, but still am not sure which card would be the right one for me. As I found this site and forum very helpful, I would be interested in your recommendations.

My PC will be equipped as follows:
- P4 2.53 GHz
- Mainboard with Intel 845PE
- 512 MB DDR Ram
- 120 GB 7200 RPM HD
- ATI Radeon 9700 with TV-out
- NEC 4x DVD Burner
- Soundblaster 5.1 PCI

What I want the capture card for:
- watching cable TV on the PC
- recording in MPEG2 with 720*576 resolution and Stereo Sound
- if possible recording in the background
- storing the MPEGs on DVD
- no need for editing apart from cutting commercials
- use of timeshifting function (if possible with use of the TV-out)
- simple use (don't want to invest lots of time)

My main question is, if I should get a card with hardware MPEG2 encoder or if a software encoder is enough with the P4 2.53.

So far these are my favourites (sorted by cost):

Terratec Cinergy 400 (approx. 60 Euro, Software MPEG 1/2 Encoder)
- lots of features for the low cost
- new card with new encoder chip (can be good or bad)
- not much info about experiences yet

Pinnacle PCTV-Pro (approx. 100 Euro, Software MPEG 1/2 Encoder)
- card is quiet common
- some good reviews, some bad reviews
- apparently bad support

Hauppauge PVR 250 (approx. 190 Euro, Hardware MPEG 1/2 encoder)
- rather low cost for Hardware MPEG 1/2 encoder
- will most likely become a common card
- apparently lots of problems but some good reviews
- apperently bad support

Vidac Vmagic TV (approx. 300 Euro, Hardware MPEG 1/2 encoder)
- rather high cost
- very good reviews with apparently no problems at all
- German documentation only, which I don't mind, as I am German
- apparently good support

If it was not for the high cost I'd definately choose the Vidac because of the extremly positive user reports.
However, if I buy a chepaer card and it turns out to be crap, I will have gained nothing.

Sorry for th long post, but I thought I'd give you as much information as possible to help you with your recommendations.

What do you think?

Greetings from Germany,
Ivan

[ItsMe]

I have owned three of the cards you mention.

I haven't tried the Terratec but I own two of there sound cards (EWS64 XL & DMX6Fire 24/96) and swear by them.

PC TVPro: good card as long as you get the latest (full version 5.1 not the download update) of the software which I bought separately. The card does all its mpeg encoding using software. On my P4 2Mhz. PC I could capture straight to mpeg, VCD 15-20% cpu usage, DVD Half D1 about 40% cpu ussage, DVD 720x576 95-100% cpu usage. Half D1 is good for VCR and most TV captures. I used this card for a couple of years and was really pleased with it.

Hauppage PVR 250: Took it back a couple of days after I bought it. Although some people have success with the PVR 250, in my opinion its a piece of junk.

Vidac Vmagic TV: I currently own the Plus version of this card, the none plus versions allow you to do hardware transcodes but the cutter program uses software. The Plus version lets you use the hardware in the cutter as well as in the transcoder. Capturing on both the normal and the plus versions uses hardware. I paid about 400 Euro's including postage etc which is a lot I know, but compared to the other cards I've had, its worth every cent. The Vidac cards do not support time shifting, but if you ask Vidac for it then they might add it as they actually listen to there customers.

You will be able do software mpeg encoding on your PC. I cannot really say which card you should by. A lot of people have issues with the PCTV card, as do a lot of PVR 250 users. I like Terratec stuff so I personally might be tempted to go for that, they also have the Cinergy 600 which also has a radio tuner, something I miss since I replaced the PC TV Pro. On the other hand if you can live without timeshift features (for the time being at least) and can afford it you cannot go wrong with the Vidac card which is also excellant for backing up DVD's as it can transcode VOB files.

[bpjenn]

ATI All-In-Wonder 8500 or 7500 are great.

[Ivan72]

Hi again,

@bpjenn:
Thanks for the reply. Those may be good cards but my PC will be equipped with a Radeon 9700, and so I'm only looking for an additional Tuner/Capture card and not for an All-In_wonder.

@ItsMe
Thanks for the detailed reply. I consider myself lucky, that you have experiences with three of the four cards I picked , and I guess I'll cut the PVR 250 out of the selection then.

If I choose to purchase a hardware encoder it will be the Vidac.

It all comes down to the question:
Hardware or software encoder?

Maybe I'll better start with the cheaper solution first as I don't even know how frequently I'm going to use it. It's worth a try if that satisfies my needs. However that means Bye-Bye-recording-in-the-background...

Regarding the Cinergy, I would really like to hear some experiences.

cu, Ivan

[ItsMe]

I think you are right in considering a cheaper card before deciding if you will use the card enough to warrent buying something more expensive. If I were only capturing the odd TV program then I would not have bought a hardware encoder and would have kept the PCTV Pro. Apart from TV captures I also use the Vidac to capture from my VCR, transcode DVD VOB's for backups as well as transcoding DV material to burn onto DVD's.

I just did a search on Google for 'Terratec Cinergy'. It looks like the card does have issues, but most TV capture cards do so this doesn't neccessarily mean that it is not a good card. Anyway, I say 'it looks like...' as the posts I found on Google were from German language groups and I do not speak any German, only English and Dutch.

As for the harware or software encoding, there are two camps. In you case it all boils down to the quality of the encoder as you have enough CPU power to do encoding in software. If you do go for software then it is not recomended that you use PC for other tasks when capturing to full DVD resolutions, lower resolutions might be OK but might drop frames or loose audio sync. Hardware encoders are generally much faster than software encoders so I could argue that hardware encoders produce better quality streams when capturing mpeg streams in real time when compared to software encoders, no doubt somebody will dissagree with me on this.

Whatever you decide to go for, I suggest that you ask the dealer if you can return it if it doesn't work correctly or meet your needs.

[Ivan72]

@ItsMe

Sorry for bothering you agin, but I am a bit puzzled by your statement that the Vidac does not support timeshifting as that is listed as a feature on their homepage.

It is even included in the online-PDF-manual.

On page 15 it is stated that you just have to (in VideoSuite)
- press player/recorder to switch to play-mode (when recording is in progress the button will flash red)
- press open file
- select the file into which the current recording is filing
- timeshift mode should start

Do you use another software or does this (advertised) feature simply not work?

Regards, Ivan

[ItsMe]

Ooops Sorry about the misinformation. This is probably because there is no English documentation and as I said earlier, I do not speak any German, let alone read it. I am currently trying to translate bits of the manual using babel. Luckily VideoSuite is easy to use.

I am sure that the advertised feature does work as the Vidac cards do what they are supposed to do.

As its a mpeg hardware card it will not work with other software for capturing, only VideoSuite works.

[Leon8]

Hi Itsme,

I am still considering the Vidac card but because they are in Germany and I am in Canada I am to made sure this is the card I want.

Couple more questions,

On there website they have plugin for Premiere for their Plugin version.
Does your card have "S" in? How are you capturing from your VCR?

I saw the Vitec DCM quality and was quite impressed but they can't convert from AVIs. If I know the quality of the Vidac is just as good I wouldn't have hesitation ordering it.

Could you send 1 still from your mpeg2 capture?

Thanks again.

Leon8

[hunts]

I would recommend Pinnacle PCTV. I got it on sale for like 30 usd at CompUSA. I haven't had any problems with it at all. I did do my research and notice there are several complaints about it and especially the tech support. The version I have is one of the newer ones, which is probably why I don't have any problems. The PC I run is a Gateway 700XL. The one thing I noticed when installing the drivers on this card is that they weren't "signed" but was supposedly ok to install anyway.. at least that's what Pinnacle documentation says.

My top choice would be the ever so popular Hauppauge 250, but I wasn't willing to spend 100+ usd on it. Looking at the screenshots for Hauppauge, it looks like they have better/cooler software than Pinnacle's PCTV. I don't regret getting the Pinnacle, but if I were willing to spend more money, I'd go for the Hauppauge 250.

[ItsMe]

Hi Itsme,

I am still considering the Vidac card but because they are in Germany and I am in Canada I am to made sure this is the card I want.

Couple more questions,

On there website they have plugin for Premiere for their Plugin version.
Does your card have "S" in? How are you capturing from your VCR?

I saw the Vitec DCM quality and was quite impressed but they can't convert from AVIs. If I know the quality of the Vidac is just as good I wouldn't have hesitation ordering it.

Could you send 1 still from your mpeg2 capture?

Thanks again.

Leon8

Hi Leon8

I it doesn't have an ' external' svideo, I use FBAS (composite). As far as can tell you can purchase a svideo extension for the card which you plug onto the board. I am not sure if it is available now or it will be available soon. Best thing to do would be to write to Vidac and ask them:
sales@vidac.de
support@vidac.de

I haven't seen the Vitec so I cannot compare.

I have just made a couple of stills from some DV footage, drop me a private message with your e-mail address and I will send them. Note that these stills are probably not the best I could produce, they are selected at random. Also i am not the greatest of camera operators.

I am setting up a Vidac page on my website (a slow process...) and may publish a couple of short clips in the near future.

to hunts. I think Ivan72 is considering the PCTV Pro which I doubt he can get for $30, not in Europe anyway. As i said in my previous post, its a good card, I never had any problems with it, even when I had it in a PC with VIA a chipset. The PC TV is definatly worth considering, especially with the latest software and a fast CPU. Pinnacles software is more than adiquate and much more stable than the Hauppage offering.

[Leon8]

Itsme,

How do I send you a private e-mail?

Leon8

[ItsMe]

Click on the ' Profile' button at the top of this message. A new screen will appear which contains a button with ' PM' on it, click that. The message editor will open and then you just type the message as you would a normal post.

[ItsMe]

@ItsMe

Sorry for bothering you agin, but I am a bit puzzled by your statement that the Vidac does not support timeshifting as that is listed as a feature on their homepage.

It is even included in the online-PDF-manual.

On page 15 it is stated that you just have to (in VideoSuite)
- press player/recorder to switch to play-mode (when recording is in progress the button will flash red)
- press open file
- select the file into which the current recording is filing
- timeshift mode should start

Do you use another software or does this (advertised) feature simply not work?

Regards, Ivan

Just tested the timeshift function. Needless to say it works.

[Ivan72]

Hi Guys,

@ItsMe
Thanks for the continuing information.
Glad to hear timeshift on the Vidac does work.

I still have to make up my mind.
Luckily it's going to take two weeks or so for my PC to arrive , so I have time to gather further information.

cu, Ivan

[leebo]

I'm not going to go into much detail, however I thought I should warn you that if you go with a software encoder you will most likely be dissappointed... if you're looking for good quality captures in mpeg2.

To date, I do not beleive ANY CPU has the power to make very good quality mpeg captures. I struggled with an ATI AIW Radeon for over a year (Athlon 1200 CPU) and aside from the software issues, the captures, even at low quality, never met my expectations.
Low resolution, strobing, etc. made me wish I had purchased a hardware encoder card.

Unless you're willing to compromise capture quality and waste time returning cards, I'd stick with hardware encoding.

[ItsMe]

Although I do have a hardware capture and transcoder card I would not go so far as to say that software encoders doesn't encode as good as hardware solutions. At the end of the day encoding in hardware is still down to how good the software in the hardware capture card is. If I compare DV footage trancoded with hardware with the some footage transcoded with software then I do not think that there is much difference other than the time it takes to trancode (HW 28-35fps, SW 4-8fps (2Ghz CPU) for DVD qualitiy).

When using hardware software the CPU has no bearing on quality, a faster CPU means that the encoding/transcoding is done faster nothing else. What does matter is the quality of the original material, along with the settings used when encoding.

Software is and will remain a good, cheap alternative to hardware considering the price of good hardware capture/transcoder cards ($300-400).