The poll above ^^^ Why is VCD winning, I thought that SVCD

[kinneera]

Grow up

[Sefy]

kinneera, the part with the LaserDisc was just a theoratical situation, since we can't exactly try it, and not even fit it in the drive

But atleast you follow where i'm going with this, if you put VCD on a DVD media, you are essentialy creating a VideoCD, the fact that you have alot more space for more movie is only cause of the media type, the media does not really care what is recorded or how it is recorded, it's what you have on it that will matter, not the media.

So, if you have for example the new media type such as ML-R (MultiLayer) or FMD (Fluresente MultiLayer) and you record a DVD movie on it, it will become a DVD, regardless of the media type, if you record a VCD, it will essentialy be a VideoCD, again, media is simply a method of transfering information from one location to another.

Video-CD stands for Video which is placed on a CD, so what happens if you put it on a CDRW ? it becomes VCDRW ? and if you record it onto a DVD media, does that make it VDVD ? nope to both, cause like i've mentioned before, media is just media which was designed to give you more capacity, what you put on it, is your business.

Now for the point of cDVD/miniDVD, since it is not an official format, and as we all know, barely no DVD player can actually even play it, it is a formated invented by users like you and me, so we can make an identical copy of a DVD to a CD (which identical result gives you about 15min of movie) that does not mean you can't raise or lower the Bitrate.

what i mean is, it's not a strict format, if it ever becomes one, then we can say, don't call it miniDVD call it XDVD, I even once created a Template which I called SxDVD, which I simply took the DVD Template and cut all the settings by exactly half, to be honest i've never even tried it

But again, since there is no true format which is supported by any player yet, each person can make, shall we say a higher quality SVCD which we will name as DVD, however, for all fairness, and for my opinion, i'd say something that is a DVD backup, should by minimum have an AC3 soundtrack to make it diffrent then VCD/SVCD which do NOT support AC3 soundtrack, although the Bitrate does not matter as i've seen DVD movies with AC3 track and only 192k bitrate.

[Kdiddy]

hmmmm ac3 track being a key difference & hmmm variable bitrate by which this site also states is allowable...geeee Sefy, I swear I type that exact same thing about 10 post ago...hmmm,LOL, now see if you get the same hair raising reaction I got....

Kinneera: Now do you see why you no takes your word as bond by any means...didnt you type this earlier??

"I'm going to make one last remark about the english language argument I made, and then I will not address KDiddy ever again as he has no sense of appropriate argumentation and is not worthy of the respect of any healthy, intelligent human being."

and yet here you are again, Johnny Knoxville, contradicting your own statements again....responding when Ive asked you, begged you, IMPLORED you, to simply shut up....so what exactly does that make you now, since Im not worthy of respect of any, intelligent human being??....you should just left well enough alone with XVCD topic, at least in that regards you had minimal ground to stand on...LOL, thanks for the entertainment, Kinneera...any relation to "She-ra" by the way??


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-28 03:17:22 ]</font>

[Sefy]

Kdiddy, I don't see why do you keep this type of attacks again, i'm giving my time and patience, so I can clear out whatever seems to be bothering him regarding all the formats, what does all the taunting you are doing contribute for ?

[Kdiddy]

Hey Sefy like I told him...he made his own bed, now he's got to lay in it...when a person outright tells me what I shouldnt say or cant say, then I could less how they feel, at first I TRIED reasoning with him (go reread the our posts), but reasoning only goes so far...who is he the miniDVD authority??, did he invent the format??..no I think not, so I called it an freakin Apple Pie if I want to...he still cant try IMPOSE some sense of authority upon me...so screw him, now, Im just f*ck!N with him, because it has turned into a very humorous situation...He is not trying to learn OR have a open mind about anything, so why should I?...also go back read in several post where he himself has made snide, rude, inappropiate remarks or whatever you want to call them...waaay b4 I even join the topic, so he again has no room to talk about "rules of engagement"...his whole existence in this topic has been contradictory & ludicrous at best...I understand you have a sore spot for "confrontations" because the past...but but if people cant have thicker skin than this, especially over the internet with people they dont even know...they like I said before about him, they need serious help.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-28 03:43:13 ]</font>

[Sefy]

I'm not asking for his sake, i'm just asking for my own sake, I respect both of you, and as many know me here, I love debates and arguments, what I don't aprove of is just the constant insults people keep giving each other, does not matter who started what, and yes, I have read all your posts, and i'm asking you as a personal favour if you can stop or just ignore what you don't like, i'm not telling you, i'm just asking if you can, and hopefully he will do the same.

Thanks in advance!

[Kdiddy]

personal favor...hmm you trying to pick me up Sefy??.. &quot LOL.....ok ok, FOR YOU, I will quit picking on kid, IF he keeps mouth shut in regards to me and all my SuperXminiCDVDs like he "claimed" he would.

[Sefy]

hehe, well, sorry, but i'm already taken and my girlfriend won't approve of it much but THanks!, and I would still like to hear any comments or ideas you have on the subject, as this is the main purpose of the forum, to learn from each other!

[Kdiddy]

none really, I pretty much laid it all out there....I had a few sync issues, that the basic DVD Authoring software could not fix, but may have just seen how I should have fix it all alone....so really my main goal would be to produce this HIGH quality DVD like SVCD Ive heard so much about....however I need to do it in the highly gray area for both forms (around 2mpbs)...from what Ive gathered throughout the net is that CCE's mpg2 encoding is both the fastest & best?? yay or nay?..up till now Ive been strictly a TMPG user and satisfied, not astounded, with the results...but I can deal with it, not like I watch movies over & over...Im not as versed on exatcly what settings have what impact...but it seems everyone has there opinion, so trial and error seems like it may be my best route...so I guess the original debate topic still remains unsolve for me at least..LOL

[Sefy]

Regarding CCE, personaly I hate the program, it's not easy to use, it does not have a user friendly interface, and when I did finaly get it to work, it doesn't have half the options TMPGEnc has, and i've not seen that much in quality or speed improvements, so like yourself, I went right back to TMPGEnc, but atleast I try every program once

As for the topic not being solved, I don't think there is much to solve here, VCD users still double the amount of SVCD users (atleast from those who posted!) and DivX seems to be catching up with SVCD rather fast, I just hope no one will open a debate where they ask if DivX has better quality then SVCD, cause I think i'd ignore it all together

[Kdiddy]

No I only meant unsolved for me...as far as to which format I as going to use...I agree, it will probably never be solved here..LOL

[Sefy]

Actually I think you know which format you are going to use, cause if you didn't, you wouldn't be using any of them

[adam]

Kdiddy cce and TMPGenc are VERY close in quality and which one is better really depends on the source. From my experience TMPGenc has colors more true to the source and has overall better quality at the same bitrate settings.

So if you can achieve a decent average bitrate in TMPGenc, most of the time the quality will be better. But if your trying to squeeze a movie onto 2 cdrs, then the extra 1,2, or 3 passes that cce gives you will allow you to raise your bitrate quite a bit, which is what you need most in this case.

All I care about is quality, for others the fact that cce blows TMPGenc away in speed might make the difference for them. It is seriously lightening fast compared to TMPGenc.

Try them both but dont give up on cce too fast, its a little confusing and the bitrate settings seem kinda bizarre but its definitely a program you should use.

[thebach]

Ya but does anybody know whats better, XVCD or SVCD?

[Sefy]

I think XVCD and SVCD each has their own "market", I would guess that at CBR XVCD would give better quality, and at VBR SVCD would give better quality, of course i'm just guessing here, as i've not done XVCD, and i've only encoded SVCD several times.

XVCD is based on MPEG1 encoding
SVCD is based on MPEG2 encoding

So you should have by logic more quality using SVCD, but to be certain, you need to encode from the same source, the same clip at the same settings, while first you use MPEG1 and then MPEG2, and then playback and compare.

[kinneera]

MPEG1 and MPEG2 use the same compression methods, so at equivalent resolutions and bitrates, you're going to be able to tell very little difference. The exact details of the implementation of that compression reportedly make MPEG1 slightly better at low bitrates and MPEG2 slightly better at high bitrates, but this is more a matter of subjective evaluations than proven fact. Where MPEG2 is vastly different is in the number of delivery options it makes possible by allowing many more streams to be multiplexed together, which is not particularly relevant to the the VCD/XVCD/SVCD debate.

It's also an odd myth that many people seem to perpetuate that MPEG1 is limited to 5Mpbs. In actuality, the MPEG specification allows for video up to 4095x4095 at up to 100Mbps. Has anyone bothered to create a decoder that could handle that? No, but of course who really needs that?

[Sefy]

Well, since the MPEG specifications already cover upto that much, I know what uses the FMD drives will have, and we will propably see a heck lot better movie then a DVD movie, as DVD only has as far as I know upto 17gb size, while FMD will at first start with 140gb size

[Kdiddy]

I know this is also probably just a matter of opinion as well, but like said about that gray area....so by popular opinion, where would one say that the "low" bitrate area ends & the "high" bitrate area begins....because it does seem that most of you agree that at high bitrates, mp2 is better...however do you agree on exactly the high starts on the bitrate chart?

I did do a test run through with CCE, was able to obtain very close quality to that of my basic mpg2s from TMPG (but like I said, I havent played with it settings much)...espceially when you throw in the speed aspect, does seem a bit buggy & has bless the steller user interface, havent gotten the framserve to always work &/or CCE to always like my "fake" or real .avis...seem to remember reading somewhere that CCE only likes a certain resolution on its mpg2, is that correct?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-28 12:46:14 ]</font>

[Sefy]

well, that's out of my expertise, as i've not done any comparison to that degree, as i've mostly and I tend to stay with VCD or one of my own formats which follow the VCD settings.

I can say that at VCD bitrates, MPEG2 is behaving rather well in quality, at times can even give better quality then VCD itself.

[kinneera]

We must always keep in mind that the quality of the encoder (or lack thereof) can render all lesser details moot, anyway. The bitrate cutoff for low versus high that I've generally heard is somewhere around 2-2.5Mbps.

[thebach]

I was just kidding guys gees, I already know SVCD is better. I've done SVCD's with a bitrate of 1600, and XVCD's with a bitrate of 2500, and the XVCD's don't look near as sharp as the SVCD's. A low bitrate SVCD beats a high bitrate XVCD, don't try to tell me different I've done them all and I have eyes that work and my brain works most of the time

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: thebach on 2001-08-28 18:13:58 ]</font>

[kinneera]

That's almost certainly due to the difference in resolution. If the XVCD uses a ?x480 resolution of any sort, it will look much closer to the SVCD in clarity at an equivalent bitrate. You are right that a 352x240 VCD at any bitrate cannot compete with an SVCD.

[Kdiddy]

Well I have run the gamut with both CCE 2.5 & 2.62, played with all the settings & such....yet even with the speed factor taken into account...right now I prefer TMPG still...my main prob I was getting were the halos/noise around objects, that werent as appearant in TMPG....plus all the extra settings I get with TMPG...did have another question though...

Is their an added advantage in frameserving as oppose to not frameserving?....off hand I didnt notice any difference in TMPG with frameserving from Vdub as oppose to using only the d2v file from DVD2AVi, or does that do the same basic thing as frameserving?

[kinneera]

The d2v is just a frameserver as well, you shouldn't need to go through VirtualDub unless you want to use something like a subtitle filter.

[Sefy]

yup, D2V is simply a file that allows TMPGEnc to read the video from the VOB files, so it literaly only Frameservs it, what a nice chap

[mrbass]

Divx is more popular than vcd and svcd. Why? Everyone has a computer and can swap them easily. I'd guess 80% of people into computers that I know are into divx.
I get vcd and svcd and it's not even close in comparison. SVCD is clearly superior. I remember seeing a movie by a group that did CCE in the nfo and it had artifacts and so I thought TMPG was superior bigtime.
Then I started using DVD2SVCD with CCE 2 or 3 pass vbr and it had me floored at how superior CCE is to TMPG. I couldn't believe it.

So now I've stopped even downloading vcds not worth my time. Only get svcd and most groups release in TMPG so all of my own rips are superior compared to VCDWS, INFERNO, etc. since they use TMPG mostly.

Also Apex and Pioneer are quite popular dvd players. I've owned toshiba, sony, phillips, panasonic. Apex doesn't have the same picture quality as a pioneer. I have a pioneer 434 and it's fantastic quality. The Pioneer 343 is the same just can't hook up to HDTV that's all.
Granted making a SVCD takes me 29 hours somtimes on a PIII 450 256MB but it's a spare computer and most are under 24 hours. To me SVCD almost equals DVD...very very close.

I'd guess the majority doesn't have the time nor a decent dvd player that plays svcds. So for them vcd people and divx people I totally understand why they choose those formats. I'd probably choose it too if I didn't have the right equipment. Not for a minute though can someone ever tell me mpeg-1 2500KB/bit beats mpeg2 2000KB/bit encoded with CCE 2.50 vbr 3pass. It'll just never happen in my lifetime.
http://www.doom9.org/mpg/dvd2svcd.htm

[Kdiddy]

Well I dont think the debate about TMPG/CCE was in relation to the VCD/SVCD debate...think when most people, well me anwyays, were comparing the 2 encoders....it was in regards to a mpeg-2 video at same bitrate range...and to my eyes, CCE @ 3pass VBR 1.7-2.3 had more artifacts than TMPG's 2pass between the same VBR range...dont get me wrong, TMPG did not blow CCE away, but I could tell the difference in the high motion scenes...I give CCE props for its speed, but I usually encode overnight while Im sleep, so speed is not as big as deal as the quality...and I feel that TMPG gives more/better options to improve your quality than CCE...

[Cosmo Kramer]

VCD or SVCD? For me it's easy, after being able to burn and watch (FF and RW problems solved) as well when you get into SVCD, you dont want to go back to VCD anymore..

But however, when the source material is not either high quality or in low resolution, i go for VCD, or sometimes 352x SVCD/MPEG2.

For me both formats have their strong points and usage, i choose the best for the situation and i'm fine with it.

Cosmo.

[Peter]

I think SVCD is better quality, but my Pioneer DV 343 can't do time searches/resume with SVCD. It's a pain to goto let's say 30/40 min with fast forward.
For this I prefer VCD, the Pioneer can do time search with it.