The poll above ^^^ Why is VCD winning, I thought that SVCD

[kinneera]

Gee, this thread has it all now...we've even managed to cover miniDVD's too...

[thxkid]

First of all I have both formats Laser disc and DVD have compared the exact movie on laser disc and dvd and the laser disc wins barely in picture quality but blows away DVD when it comes to sound, DVD spnds 80% of its space or more for video 20% or less I have heard down to 5% for sound. DVD is a compressed foramt, Laser disc is not why do you think they can get 2hrs 20 min on a single side single layer DVD while you only get 59min. 59 sec on 1 side of a 12in platter. Its sad laser disc never caught on, plus all the movies they have passed on so far, wheres
Cinderella, beauty and the beast, Aladdin, Song of the South, Mickey Mouse Black and White years, Lion King, Beautican and the Beast, Star Wars Trilogy, Indiania Jones.
Plus the above are mostly in THX, DVD sees very few THX releases.
Oh Don't get me wrong I do now own more DVD's than Laser discs, even replaced some lasers with DVD's. I finally just gave in and forget laser, beta and 35mm camera, got DVD, SVHS, Digital Camera, Dishnet sat and just put up with the crappy Digital quality on all this stuff, I can always tell you what is digital and what is analog, probably not on 27 inches or smaller but out it on 36inches or larger, oh yeah there is a difference.
But whats this still going on over VCD and SVCD, SO WHAT, I use both, I use what I need at the time. You are not gonna change any minds here, hey I will not use Crap VHS either, only SVHS, does that mean I am right and everyone else is wrong or dumb of course not, we all wuse what we fell like using.
End this with a couple thoughts.
got to be fair to the VCD people, I never used SVCD until I got the equipment powerful enough to process it.
Got to be fair to the SVCD people, if you have always used VCD but never tried SVCD, should just experiment a little with it to see if you would even like this format, 1st time I tried sure made setup and take notice.
Now I use both formats to save family videos over to, copy VH1 classic videos and GAC videos over to it and thats all.
Spend 8,12,16 hours to copy a DVD movie, GGGGGGGGGGGGGG's I just wait buy it used at Blockbuster For $9.99 because I like all the extra junk that you get on a DVD that won't transfer over to a VCD or SVCD.

[Kdiddy]

You would make a bad lawyer with "ignore the evidence, my client is not guilty" tactic..dont you realize that you just contradicted yourself...explain to me how one gets confused when I state that what I made was in video form SVCD quality??, no on second thought, don't, because if someone like yourself gets confused by a statement like that, then they DESERVE to be confused & clueless...ok because you interpret that to mean one thing...then I am wrong to interpret "NO STANDARD" and "VIDEO BITRATE UP TO 9 MBIT/S"??...I think not, especially considering what your interpretations have lead to so far....I'll interpret it to be a miniDVD/cDVD thank you....especially since the SVCD lovers on this forum claim they can get DVD like quality in a SVCD on 2 disks (I'll admit having not been able to get "dvd" like quality, just SVCD like)...so if some of the good SVCD encoders out there can get "dvd" like quality video coupled with true DD 5.1 surround...I would say more they probably classify the movie as more miniDVD/cDVD than SVCD/XSVCD....

and as I thought..you couldnt find where I said that the miniDVD I made was a true copy of DVD, and this is best you could come up with for a response..LOL





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-27 04:26:00 ]</font>

[flaninacupboard]

nomadxjl, you really didnt have trouble with that scene? i encoded 2 pass VBR 2171video, 192 audio. although, admittedly, i used "normal" instead of "high quality" would this make a significant difference when encoding SVCD?

[adam]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-08-26 06:36:04, KoalaBear wrote:
The most interesting thing for me was the discovery that SVCD is better than VCD by a constant margin. Think of them as two cars on the same train. Whether VCD is one car behind SVCD or three isn't important; the distance between them doesn't change no matter how fast the train is moving.

...Thus, if you were to create a hypothetically "perfect" SVCD, the hypothetically "perfect" VCD will look so good in comparison that the difference in play time is greater than the difference in picture quality.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Both common sense and the samples you posted proved the exact opposite of the first statement. If you pour 4 gallons of water into a 6 gallon jug does that mean the jug can only hold 4 gallons of water? Well according to your logic, it does. And the second statement? Well considering that it is coming from someone who has admitted that he has never made a proper svcd (no a captured dvd to svcd conversion doesnt count at all)I dont think your opinion counts...sorry. Please refrain from commenting on things which you have no knowledge about. If you want to comment on the quality of svcds then please actually LOOK at one first. If you still think vcds look about as good thats fine, just dont start arguments based on an educated guess.

If you can't understand how source quality affects output then I give up, just stick with vcds cause svcds are too complicated for you.

[SatStorm]

Whow!
Just returned from my holidays, and what a post!
Anyway, as I use to say, I rip direct to mpeg 2 format from satellite feeds. Then I timestamp with dvd2avi and encode with tmpeg.
My conclusions, after almost a year:
1: (x)SVCD (like SxVCD) is better than VCD with VBR (like SeVCD). I mention sefy's templates, because you all know them. That "SxVCD" is like LP on a SVHS tape recorded on a SVHS video recorder.
2: CVD (352X576 PAL or 352X480 NeverTheSameColour),VBR at about 2100-2500 for High quality. Call it HalfDVD or (x)SVCD, but this is the future format for homemade DVD-R(+/-W). Compatible, future ready....
3: SVCD for Movie Rips. 2-3 Movies on one DVD disk ain't bad....

That is my opinion...

[josh182]

how about this? let's see a gorgeous sample clip of someone's VCD (at it's very best and prime of course). Then someone else also post a sample SVCD clip in all it's glory as well. Then we can burn each one to it's own cd, that way we'll have the cream of the crop of both worlds to compare! This is only to settle the "quality" issue between the two.

This ascii is probably a waste of space, since I'm sure alot don't have svcd compatible dvd players... But I know I downloaded a svcd rip of 'Dude! wher's my car' and was simply astonished by the quality --- and it fit on 2 cd's as well!

Heck, why not post a Xvcd clip just for kicks too

[Kdiddy]

For those I may have "confused" about the aspects of miniDVD..please check here why I called what I make a miniDVD/cDVD

http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=56514&forum=8&3

[kinneera]

It would be great fun to for us all to be able to exchange clips. Howver, for me the problem is that our preferred source is DVD. I don't feel it wise to post what is legally classified as pirated video on this site for any purpose.

Could someone please help me with this idiot Kdiddy, if for nothing but as a service to those less experienced (read - newbies)...for whatever reason he doesn't seem to listen or understand. I'll say this one last time in the hopes that he decides to actually decides to try to understand what I am saying rather than just letting it fly over his head...SVCD quality is just that - SVCD quality - not DVD quality. Thus, not miniDVD, regardless of sound. Having the sound is one part, but one part does not make the whole. And as for the statement he seems so fixated on: "I never said the miniDVD I made was a true copy of the DVD" - this claim that his disc(s) is/are a true copy is wholly and unequivocally implied by classifying the disc(s) as miniDVD. Finally, I think it is safe to say no one here claims their SVCDs are DVD quality, so why must you Kdiddy?

[Sefy]

Kdiddy, I don't see why must you treat others as they are below you, it is for one hurtful, it does not add anything to the debate, it is totaly uneccesery and except maybe cause an unwelcomed fued and flames between two people, it does nothing good.

We are all here to help each other out, teach each other what we can, and recieve help on matters we do not know, maybe even create new ideas and new standards of our own.

But i'm quite sure alot of people will agree with me, that doing so by treating someone that may not know something you know as an idiot or calling that person as such, is plain rude and does not contribute to anything.

Please don't take this as a personal assault, i've simply followed your posts, especialy those with kinneera recently, and i've noticed you are treating him unfairly, but I do apologise if I was wrong, I simply know how it would feel to be attacked like that, and it made me quit the forum before, I only returned because I was requested by so many who told me to ignore those assaults, is that what you wish ?
that people will ignore you because you won't communicate on a more professional level and treat others as equal ?

Again, my sincere apologies if I have been out of place, or have said anything offending, as it was not my intention.

[TOMMO]

WOW - this is a good one.

SVCD is not DVD.

SVCD is BETTER than DVD now. It was not a week ago - it was crap - but with some extremely to the point and specific tips regarding my specific DVD player and bitrates etc it is very good for my home movies. By that I mean the kids on holiday etc. However my SVCD format is not accepted by NERO, WINONCD will burn it though. Thats tells you something though does it not.

VCD for me still has its place in my encoding methods and given the right source material still provides excellent quality.

The quality issue I am afraid will never be settled in this post - it is too subjective. It depends SO VERY MUCH on the source material, the encoding methods and the DVD Player.

I could send each of you (but I am not going to) a copy of a clip encoded VCD from my Camcorder and and SVCD of the same clip. I would wager nothing on the fact that all of you would stick my VCD in your player and it would play fine. I doubt that many would accept my SVCD disk.

Also I am 44 years old and my eyesight is not as good as it used to be - so things pass them by. Hoever - a clip of my 8 year old daughter on a roundabout at Legoland encoded for Digtial 8 into VCD, no editing, just capture (PYRO) and encode into VCD was quite blocky in place especially in the peripheral areas. Encoded to SVCD it was fine - in fact excellent.

But it is all subjective and with regards to DVD players - down to specification and manufacturers model. On the last point - don't anyone disagree with the DVD player bit - I know this for certain. i tried for ages to crack SVCD and it took a proffesional with the same DVD player as mine - a Philips 711 - to come to my rescue and I would never have dreamed of doing what he said in a million years.

If some one wants me to post my clips, I will but they will not be very long at all. But how I post them or to where - you will have to tell me.

[Kdiddy]

Sefy: I did not take your post as a personal attack in no manner what so ever. I started out explaining myself quite well to Kinneera, but when he goes and makes statements about telling what I CAN & CAN NOT say...and saying that I make statements not only did I not make, but made quite opposite statements...then yes I take issue to that, which several other people have done throughout this post have done, I do seem to remember someone wanting to "eat his dog". I have no problem in communicating in a professional manner, but seems the only language he seems to even understand.

Kinneera: No my son, you need help PERIOD, you english comprehension skills are seriously lacking. I have alreadly explain the meaning the prefix MINI. But again since you like being techincal since I use the "DVD" moniker... Now aren't you the same person claiming that you XVCD, which is your whole reason even being in the post subject, is just as good or better than SVCD...hmmm now the "S" is short for the prefix "super", a prefix which Websters defines as "higher in rank, greater in quality, surpassing all others of its kind"....soooo given you aptitude for being so literal, does this not contradict everything you have posted here by definition alone, let alone any settings that can be done.....yes you need help..LOL

[RWC]

Hi All guys,,,,,,,

I like says all ya that all ya look sux argue for which is better. I laughed hard for stupid small thing lead to more than 120 posted. WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!
No matter vcd or svcd. I says both are better cuz depend on your feeling comfort to watch movie after you made. Depend on your computer power or less power..:-p

[galdridge]

Isn't anyone planning to resuse their MPEG-2s to cut DVDs later? Is so why are so many people complying strictly to SVCD standard and using 480x480. DVD will not use this! It is much better to use 720 or 704 EVEN IF you stay under 2.6MBPS per SVCD because you will be able to cut them to DVDs later. Why wouldn't you? (unless you are doing vcd but that's a different story)

[kinneera]

I'm am getting tired of arguing with people who try to claim I'm being technical when technicalities are the only ground they have to stand on. Your definition of "mini" is being employed as a literal technicality. My argument is the generalized position that in the context it is being used here, the dictionary definition of the prefix does not apply. Also, I argued XVCDs could come close to SVCD quality, not VCDs. SVCDs clearly are super compared to spec. VCDs. Likewise, an XSVCD could come closer to DVD quality than a regular SVCD. It's all a matter of degrees of quality. There is no inconsistency in logic in those arguments. The spirit of the miniDVD definition is to replicate true DVD quality video on a CD, something which you are not doing with the settings you have put forth. The heirarchy would go like this: VCD, XVCD, SVCD, XSVCD, miniDVD, true DVD. The last two would naturally need to have equivalent specs on the video/audio, just on different media, to be true to their names.

[Kdiddy]

My God man you are truly amazing...you almost use the same logic Hitler use to crucify the Jews, or did that not happen either??

Kinneera says: "Your definition of "mini" is being employed as a literal technicality. My argument is the generalized position that in the context it is being used here, the dictionary definition of the prefix does not apply."

How can you say the prefix does not matter??? it is basis for which grammar & diction of the ENGLISH language is built upon...they dont apply?!?!....so again, you took the "mini" prefix and CHOSE to only apply to the time constraint...and again I am wrong for applying "mini" to format which is CLEARLY stated has to having no SET STANDARD & allows for a variable bit rate...yeah ok..."The spirit of the miniDVD definition is to replicate true DVD quality video on a CD"..I know thats not possible, otherwise, we would never have a DVD media, if a whole DVD cut fit on to a CDR...."The last two would naturally need to have equivalent specs on the video/audio, just on different media, to be true to their names."...if they were to have equivalent settings, they COULD NEVER both fit "equivalent" # of media.....so by your logic then...a XVCD encoded at say 1.5 mbps should not be in the same classfication as a XVCD of say 2 mbps??..now do we need to expand our X's...make XXvcd now?

[Sefy]

Well, i'm not going between the two of you to make things work out, since you both seem to enjoy it, I apologise for trying to set the record straight, now to the point of business here:

If we are talking about standard such as VCD, SVCD, DVD, these are preset standards which have specific settings to each one of them, no matter what type of media they are on, if you are able to put 5 min of DVD standard on a CDR, then it is a DVD in all accounts, the only thing the DVD media does, is give the space that is needed for the movie at that quality level.
When are regarding formats such as X(S)VCD and S(x/e)VCD or mini/c DVD, those are non-strict formats, and doing changes to them will keep them at their supposed "formats" as they are simply user created and unofficial formats which aren't even supported and some of us are lucky to even get them to play on current equipment.

I Trouly hope this should hopefully and finally clear all those debates, which aren't even remotly related to the topic, which simply asks why is VCD winning when SVCD is the better format, so the answer to that would be, SVCD is the better format, but that doesn't make it better for everyone and for every purpose! cause if that was the case, why would DVD be invented ? and i'm quite sure DVD won't be the last video format we will hear about, cause once humans know they can achive better with technology, they will!

[Kdiddy]

Thank you for not only being the voice of sanity and reason Sefy...but also driving home the same point that Ive been trying to make to Kinneera all day... , but also be warn that he might place you in the same "idiot" "uninformed" "misinformation providing" category that I was placed in by him...LOL

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kdiddy on 2001-08-27 14:59:37 ]</font>

[kinneera]

Fine. If a miniDVD is defined exactly the same way as an SVCD (pointless) by whomever, then one or the other of the definitions should be removed from the site since it is redundant. The definition of miniDVD posted on this site clearly implies that the only difference between it and DVD is the media it's on, and that by all accounts it is a DVD except for the media, as you say Sefy. It seems to me that the media is as important a distinction as anything else, otherwise we could put a DVD structure on a laserdisc and call it a DVD just because everything is the same except for the media. Most of all, my original point, that was falsely criticized, still stands - which is that if you want a _full_ quality DVD backup on CD-R(s), you are going to have to live with 15 min. of video on each CD-R, since that is how much fits on a CD-R when the bitrate of the original DVD is preserved. I don't think anyone can argue with that, but call it whatever the love you want then, since its true the whole argument isn't even relevant to the subject of this thread.

Now, since I've been compared to Hitler, an extremely tasteless choice of insult, I'm going to make one last remark about the english language argument I made, and then I will not address KDiddy ever again as he has no sense of appropriate argumentation and is not worthy of the respect of any healthy, intelligent human being. Language, and thus definitions, are by nature variable, this is why words have many definitions in dictionaries. The way we preserve the utility of language is by implementing the most appropriate definition for a given situation. In this case, your interpretation of the prefix "mini" is redundant with the characteristics already described by SVCDs, thus I make the argument that the most useful interpretation of the prefix in this situation is the one that I have already put forth. My opinion is not unreasonable, and it is most certainly NOT being used to justify genocide. You have managed to take a harmless discussion and add entirely inappropriate slander and hostility to it. You should be ashamed, and I hope anyone who reads your post(s) possesses enough intelligence to realize the danger of such foolish remarks.

Finally, we are all discussing a common hobby and trying to share experiences in a friendly fashion. Is just digital video people! CHILL OUT! I raise my glass to the hopes that this thread will not become any more bloated, as it's question has been more than adequately covered...

[next]

I got into one of these a few months back with Virtualis and enjoyed it. Although Michael chewed me up pretty good I thought I made my points and I learned from it. Michael is probably one of the most brilliant posters on this forum. And hey - Stinky grabbed on to it and wrote the MMC 7.1 registry hack so it wasn't fruitless. Thanks Stinky.

The moral of the story here is to take advantage of any tip you may come across and see if it works for you. Everybody's hardware is increasingly different - so what works for one may not work for another.

I'll still take the opportunity to jump in and add my stupid comments when I see black helicopters swooping in and somebody is telling me that my SVCD's are really poor because of a Chineese government conspiracy. That is simply way too tempting. So get used to it....

[Kdiddy]

It never stops...the BS level keeps a rising, the complete nonsense which flows from ya brain through fingertips is becoming ever so humorous now...its just a matter what you will type next...like watching an episode of Jackass....its not a matter of WANTING full DVD quality on a CDR, you CANT have it on a standalone DVD player because 98% DO NOT come equipped with 8x DVD-ROM needed to spin CDR fast enough to be read at 9.8mbps of encoded data correctly...so you in ALL forms of miniDVD, you HAVE to accept a ~2.5mbps bitrate to go along with your probable 2x DVD-ROM in your standalone player....like I also said b4, an AC3 audio stream is NOT characteristic of SVCD, but ooo lets through that MINOR fact out since it doesnt comply with Kinneera's vision for an miniDVD....while we are at take off the mini...cause God forbid someone use it in terms of "scaling down" regardless of what you scale down because that would ooo so far off from what the prefix "mini" means....of course you see your version as being the most useful, because is your OPINION on the matter..while we are at throw out Websters Dictionary...because everyone knows that those words could mean ANYTHING at all because the definitons are so how did you put it "and thus definitions, are by nature variable"..LOL...Do I agree that site info in parts wrong & misleading, & partly responsible for misintrepretation, yes & I already said so when I said there is no set standard for miniDVD, but I do not run the site...NOR unlike yourself, do I propose to tell them how they should VIEW a certain format or run their website...bottom line UH-GIN!, you point of view has been proven highly illogical....dont get mad because you have no experience on this subject and someone pointed it out to you....grow up and take it like a man that one day you might become..."appropriate argumentation", WTF?..this the art of war?, I dont recall joining the debate team...please dont respond, I asked you NOT to several hours ago, when expressively said if you think so lowly on the format, then why are you wasting you time "arguing" about it...and as usual you kept, shoveling the manure.....

[next]

Well actually miniDVD could mean two things I guess. Although I really don't think so. But it could just maybe...

It could mean miniDVD as it is defined on this site which is my preferred definition.

Or it could mean this:

mini Definitely Void of Definition - thus the acronym - miniDVD.

Take your pick. I've posted my choice a few lines above.

edit-

had to edit that....got it totally wrong....

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: next on 2001-08-27 16:52:29 ]</font>

[Nomadxjl]

On that scene in The Crow, I do most of my movies with single pass VBR 2000 average 2300 max on high quality slow. This will give you 44 minutes of video, and I can't see any difference between this and ones I've done with a bitrate of 2500. Also ALWAYS do your movies with force film on in DVD2AVI. Movies done at 23.9 fps play smoother than ones done at 29.9

[Nomadxjl]

I think some of you guys are really in love with each other

[Sefy]

kinneera, theoraticly, if you can put a LaserDisc (which is analog by the way) inside your CD Burner or DVD Burner and burn on it the material in either VCD/SVCD/DVD and your LaserDisc is able to play those type of movies, then you createda DVD on a LaserDisc.

But since the above is as we no, not possible for quite obvious reasons, we will skip it, now, what would you call a VCD that was burned onto a DVD media ? does that make it a DVD ? no, because it is a VCD which is simply placed on a larger capacity media.

Lastly, as i've mentioned earlier, VCD/SVCD/DVD are all pre-set standards which are NOT flexible, the rest are formats created by users to achive the highest quality (or movie length) possible on current media types, which happens to be a CDR or CDRW media.

[Kdiddy]

Sefy: My man..believe me, you dont want to go there with him...LOL...just reread all our post...it is no use, and just a waste of time..

[Sefy]

As long as he treats me with respect, I will treat him with the same respect, if someone needs more explaining and wants to learn, i'm willing to give my time and patience, as long as it all stays on a professional level, I believe i've made myself clear on my last post, but will see.

[kinneera]

In a sense I agree and in a sense I disagree. The hypothetical burning of standard format onto a laserdisc does not turn the laserdisc into a Digital Versatile Disc anymore than putting an analog video signal on it turns it into a film reel or VHS tape. True, it is a laserdisc formatted with the UDF filesystem containing high-quality MPEG2 video, but it isn't a DVD.

Now here I'll admit I don't really understand your argument about a VCD on DVD media. You're right, that's not a DVD. In fact, that's not really anything, seeing as the CD part of VCD is then missing (although a DVD player most likely will play that back). The same point could be made, with a hard drive substituted in place of the DVD. I agree with you on that.

I understand and don't dispute that all of the formats beyond VCD/SVCD/DVD are not specific. The spirit of my argument has been that if we're going to call it a cDVD/miniDVD, is it really so unreasonable to expect that it is somewhere close to DVD quality (more so than 2500 Kbps), just on a different media? It seems to me that is the spirit of the definition posted on this website. And if your intent is then to use that format to create a full quality backup of a DVD, the quality level has the be true equivalence - thus limiting you to an average of 15 min. to a disc (regardless of whether any standalone has the drive spin speed to play it back, since you're probably not creating it to watch it in that case).

It's unfortunate that at this point I must explicitly make this request, but I would like to hear back from YOU, Sefy, since I can trust that you will make your opinions and points without burying them in unnecessary insults and slander. Please take this as a sign of my respect for you.

[AlanCake]

Come on guys

You want to keep a bit of perspective on this debate?

Its hardly f**king life and death is it?

Cakehole

[Kdiddy]

LOL, and on next week episode of Jackass...here he comes, just a backing up the manure truck...clear'em path folks, its about to get thick again..LOL