dvd-r/rw vs. dvd+rw(again)

[vitualis]

Let's put a few things in perspective.

Firstly, the "-" format doesn't have to "win out" over the "+" format. Rather, it is the other way around. The "-" format is much more widely used than the "+" format at present.

Secondly, Philips doesn't give out DVD licenses. The DVD Forum does that which is a group of MANY companies (about 200 or something). The only recordable formats that can be given a DVD license (i.e., can have the DVD logo on it) are DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM.

DVD+R is not supported by the DVD Forum and so is not issued with a license to use the DVD logo.

That is, tonyp12, the situation is actually the OPPOSITE to what you just stated.

As Philips owns the patent for DVD and they are hardcore +R
I think +R will win as Philips is the one who grants licences/royalty
and if some hardcore -R DVD manufacture pi$$es them off, maybe they
will loose their licences.

This is completely and utterly wrong. If you don't actually know something, please don't make it up in the future.

Furthermore, although Sony makes DVD+R drives, they have always put DVD-R/W drives in their high end PCs and notebooks. This should give you an idea what Sony considers to be the better format for video disc production.

The DVD Alliance, which is a group of companies supporting the DVD+R/W formats consist of a much smaller group of companies. Most of these companies are in the DVD Forum as well. It generally probably makes good sense for a company to support both formats as they can simply make more money this way. This, however, is probably not a good situation for the consumer.

Regards.

[tonyp12]

I'm still looking in to who invented DVD disc.
Pretty sure Philips invented the CD so they do have patents on dvd.

There seems that there is not just one DVD patent:
http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990618S0008

[6.1] Who invented DVD and who owns it?
DVD is primarily the work of Toshiba, Philips, and Sony. There were originally two next-generation standards for DVD. The MMCD format was backed Sony, Philips, and others. The competing SD format was backed by Toshiba, Time Warner, and others. A group of computer companies led by IBM insisted that the DVD proponents agree on single standard. The combined DVD standard was announced in September of 1995, avoiding a confusing and costly repeat of the VHS vs. BetaMax videotape battle (or the quadraphonic sound battle of the 1970s).


http://www.phy.qub.ac.uk/~mjl/phy803/files/dvdfaq.html#6.1

Fans of the -R here on vcdhelp seems that they are on a agenda
and take it personally if someone says that +R probably
will be the future.
And vitualis as Moderator, you should not show your "love" for -R
here but take both sides (as jornalist do)

If you spent $300 on a drive and it's not the standard in two years,
not a big deal.
you had your fun for some years,so just move on.

[vitualis]

I'm still looking in to who invented DVD disc.
Pretty sure Philips invetented the CD so they do have patents on dvd.

But that is irrelevant isn't it? In fact, the CD was developed by a number of companies as well (Sony, Philips and ?Yamaha). Philips simply has the CD licensing rights to the CD.

MANY MANY companies have patents in the technology that relates to DVDs which is why the DVD Forum exists. It is the DVD Forum the gives out DVD licenses -- NOT any one company.

The DVD Forum official only supports DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM. It does not support DVD+R or DVD+RW. All this information is availabe on the internet and easily accesible and is NOT in dispute!

[6.1] Who invented DVD and who owns it?
DVD is primarily the work of Toshiba, Philips, and Sony. There were originally two next-generation standards for DVD. The MMCD format was backed Sony, Philips, and others. The competing SD format was backed by Toshiba, Time Warner, and others. A group of computer companies led by IBM insisted that the DVD proponents agree on single standard. The combined DVD standard was announced in September of 1995, avoiding a confusing and costly repeat of the VHS vs. BetaMax videotape battle (or the quadraphonic sound battle of the 1970s).

http://www.phy.qub.ac.uk/~mjl/phy803/files/dvdfaq.html#6.1

Exactly. I suggest that you read the DVD FAQ more thoroughly some time. The DVD Forum issues licenses as there are a lot of different patents and royalties that need to be paid. The licensing fees are the distributed to the members as appropriate.

Fans of the -R here on vdhelp seems that they are on a agenda
and take it personally if someone says that +R probably
will be the future.
If you spent $300 on a drive and it's not the standard in two years,
not a big deal.
you had your fun for some years,so just move on.

There is no agenda. Far from it. It is the + people here who seem to often have an agenda announcing it is the best thing since sliced bread or change history or commercial reality to fit a sort of +R/W fantasy. You, interestingly enough are not the first person to accuse me of "loving" the -R format. Perhaps you should take a look at your own neutrality.

I don't support one over the other except on purely technical merits. I don't own either and I don't plan on buying either except for perhaps the new -/+ combined drives. I do take exception when someone essentially conjures up a fairy tale to convince one thing to be better than another (e.g., Philips owning the licensing rights to DVD and could/would stop DVD-R producers).

Realistically, both - and + have some serious issues and the future is far from certain. As of the present, DVD-R/W is arguably the best format to use for video disc creation. It has been around the longest, it is cheaper, it is official supported by the DVD-Forum, contrary to myth it is not being replaced by DVD+R/W, it is still much more popular that DVD+R/W worldwide and new DVD players that are released often state they are specifically DVD-R/W compatible.

DVD+R/W technology is probably better for PC specific applications like backing up data and making DVD-ROMs.

If you state that you are okay with discs not being standard in 2 years time, then that's great for you. However, the whole point of have a standard is so that it will still be supported EVEN when it is obsolete. Look at VCDs. It's been around for over 10 years. Hardly anybody buys stand-alone VCD players anymore but you can still use them on modern DVD players.

It was and still is a great standard even though it is essentially obsolete with the existence of DVD.

If I put video on a recordable disc, I believe that it is reasonable for most people to expect that that disc will not only work in my current player, but also ALL "DVD compatible" players in the future. It doesn't matter so much that the format becomes obsolete. It does matter if I can no longer access the data.

There is at the moment no indication whether Blu-Ray players will be able to read DVD-R/W or DVD+R/W (though they will presumably be able to handle professional stamped DVDs just fine). However, it is fair to say that if either of them will be supported, it will probably be DVD-R/W since Blue-Ray is the baby of the DVD-Forum.

Again, with the new DVD-/+R/W drives being released, they are undoubtedly the best option. You can take the best of both worlds.

My personal prediction is that both DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W technologies will survive until the release of Blu-Ray. And with the release of Blu-Ray, it will be discovered that recordable DVD compatibility will be generally poor to force people to upgrade and use the new recordable Blu-Ray standard. There will be an upcry from the public and dual laser DVD-/+/R/W and Blu-Ray players will be released...

De je vue anyone?

Regards.

[Thorn]

Fans of the -R here on vcdhelp seems that they are on a agenda and take it personally if someone says that +R probably
will be the future.
And vitualis as Moderator, you should not show your "love" for -R
here but take both sides (as jornalist do)

If you spent $300 on a drive and it's not the standard in two years,
not a big deal.
you had your fun for some years,so just move on.

Actually, it seems to me that the +R folks are the more fanatical in their assurance that +R is the FUTURE and the be-all, end-all... My personal opintion is that it's impossible to be the format of the future when all DVD formats are already outdated, and the differences between + and - are minimal. Just pick a technology and stick with your choice until Blu-ray comes out... then maybe wait for SSRS (or whatever those 3cm discs are called... they need to rename it anyway).

[Faustus]

Speaking of blueray... just had a thought... if blueray comes out in a commercial DVd player its going to be rather hard and or impossible to convince people to switch up, therefore the normal DVDs should stick around right?

Hrm.... DVD-9 to blue ray burnable with no loss? Guess I'll be dreaming on that one for a while...
But unless I'm missunderstanding something Blueray is hardly "just around the corner" its likely to be quite some time before we see anything right?

Lastly I hardly think as a - owner I'm some part of an agenda... I just feel the need to correct something that I'm pretty sure is wrong, even if I'm quite fallible at times myself. Frankly I think its great when someone else joins the fun reguardless of format... the more people who own the drives means that there is more people who care about what we are doing here... and in theend that can only traslate to better software right?

[vitualis]

Well, the hype earlier this year suggested that it would be released by Christmas 2002.

Hype is hype...

More likely next year but I doubt it would be affordable for a while to come.

Regards.

[energy80s]

Actually DVD-RAM is the best of the DVD formats available at present. Unfortunately it isn't replayable on existing set top players, but it is by far the best system for consumer video disc recording. It uses the same principals as minidisc and is so easy to use that even my granny could use it!

Will it succeed ... err, probably not!

So it looks like we will be stuck with either -R or +R for the next few years.

[Mavrick]

Actually DVD-RAM is the best of the DVD formats available at present. Unfortunately it isn't replayable on existing set top players, but it is by far the best system for consumer video disc recording.

What??? How can DVD-RAM be the BEST if you can't even play it on your DVD Player???

DVD-RAM is good for PC data/backups ONLY!

What you been smokin'?

[vitualis]

There are set-top DVD-RAM video recorders...

Regards.

[energy80s]

What??? How can DVD-RAM be the BEST if you can't even play it on your DVD Player???

DVD-RAM is good for PC data/backups ONLY!

What you been smokin'?

Yes, DVD-RAM is the way to go, just like minidisc is the natural replacement to cassettes. CD-R audio is a disaster as very few CD players will actually play them (I'm currently looking at 15 professional players and only 2 Marantz machines will actually read them!) For broadcast use, minidisc is used exclusively by BBC Radio One in London and 98FM in Dublin.

Likewise, for video, a disc that is kept in a protective caddy will always be more robust than an easily scratched disc that is usually thrown around from one room to the next. Both current standards (-R and +R) have pretty poor standalone support and I wouldn't recommend any of them for general use. Maybe Blu-Ray will be the standard that will take off. But at present, VHS still rules the roost for home video recording.