A few DV and MicroMV questions

[mrtristan]

We have a baby on the way and I'm currently doing research on minidv camcorders. I'm not new to capturing, but I only have experience with analog signals, thus far.

Does the software used to capture the DV signal make any difference in quality?

Do I need to play through the whole tape, or is it possible to capture the information at a higher speed?

I understand that MicroMV uses mpeg2 compression. All of the devices that I've read about have firewire ports. So does that mean that capturing a MicroMV signal is similar to DV?

If not, what is the format of the file, when it's transferred to your hard drive?

[tonyp12]

MiniDV is 4:1:1 format. (UYV)

http://www.vcdhelp.com/comparison

Your HD would probably not keep up if
you could increase the transfer.

And I do not know of any camcorder that
can playback faster than 1x.

[The village idiot]

very basic from me:

DV=good

microMV I'll have to look into. With the DV, you will need a great BIG harddrive or 2. As far as I know, very few consumer DV camcorders will allow faster than 1x transfer to computer. Any good ata100 or better drive is fast enough to do atleast 2x transfer, especially the new 8mb buffer drives. ATA33 is a little faster than is needed for 1x transfer of DV info. If anyone makes a camcorder that will allow faster transfer, Sony and Panasonic would be the 2 that I would think would allow it. You might want to look into the Panasonic xxxxHS2 DVD recorder/pvr for your burning needs, and along that line any Panasonic camcorder.

Anything that has a firewire connection would most likely work well, but DV is a developed standard that has been around for many years. MicroMV as I said, I know nothing about.

[Thorn]

MicroMV is Sony's new format. I don't know much about it, but it's smaller than MiniDV tapes so the camcorders can be smaller (Considering how small my 2-year old MiniDV cam is, I'd hate to see how shaky the video would be if I was using a smaller cam).

From the sony site, it looks like MicroMV cams have a 1394 port (firewire) so the interface is similar. They probably make it easier to do everything, but beware: capturing in Mpeg is BAD if you need to re-encode (say to VCD or SVCD or another DVD bitrate). It is good if it's alreadyin DVD-spec video and you just want to burn it, but I didn't read far enough to see what format the mpeg is on the tape.

I'd assume you'll have better prices on miniDV cams, but it all depends on what features you need. You'd be well off figuring out what features are essential and then comparing your favorite choices.

By the way, DV takes about 13GB per hour. Capturing it to the computer causes no loss, but adding transitions and titles will require re-encoding and the codec used is supposed to make a difference. If your titles and transitions are self-contained, though, I don't think it makes a big difference what codec you have so the MS one for encoding would work fine.

[vhelp]

evening all.

mrtristan,
If you're looking for a miniDV cam, great. The microDV doesn't sound too
good from what I understand.

You seem to be looking (like everyone else here) for best quality, and DV
is what you're looking for.
Now, you next hurtle is to FIND what is the best buy for your price range.
Shop around. I found my Canon ZR-10 for $199 at compUSA, but this one
was a floor model, and I've had it sense, but I am now having problems.
I seem to have dropped it WAY too many times, and while it was running
mostly recording stuff off Satalite to miniDV tapes. I have issues w/ video
showing lines, and cutting into another recorded scen etc. I'm looking
into a service but haven't gotten around to it. I think all I need is a new
head alignment, he, he...

Anyways, when you do get one, be careful w/ it and don't know or bang
it around like I have done day in and day out. Sooner or later, it'll catch
up to you and you don't want to have an unexpected - if you know what
I mean.

Prices are always dropping, so keep a sharp eye out. No need for one of
those fancy $$$ models. The sales clerks are wise to newbies in this area
and will TAKE advantage of you by convensing you that you need this
feature or that, and you know what? you'll never use it or them

Oh, a tip. . . Always record in SP mode. Never in EP else you'll have poor
quality when you DO transfer via firewire (not capture)
Another tip. . . If you are planning on doing many tapings, then by your
stock in pack ie 6 packs. Fuji has them in 6 packs and BJs' carry them for
$27 vs. buying them for $6 a piece if you shop.

best of luck.
-vhelp

[mrtristan]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

So just to be sure that I understand this, you can transfer the information without loss by using firewire, but the tape plays normally, as if you were watching the movie, correct?

vhelp - The Canon ZR-10 is one of the models that I've been thinking about purchasing. There's a sale on sony products at the mall right now, but I'm leaning towards the Canon. They seem to be a better bang for the buck, so to speak.

Thorn - That was my biggest concern with the MicroMV cameras, as well. I just don't like the idea of capturing in mpeg format.

One more open question. Any suggestions for the best brand of tapes?

[holistic]

greetings mrtristin

The canon ZR-10 is an older model. Look for the new '40' series. - ZR40 , ZR45-MC (memory card) or even a ZR50-MC.

I have the ZR40 myself and got it for the following reasons :

1.Price - one of the cheaper mini DV cams available
2.It has the ability to 'pass through' an analog signal (basically you can connect an analog source - plug the camera into the firewire port - and the computer will 'capture' a DV signal.
3.it got some good reviews (the link below is reviews by users - the best reviewers !)http://www.epinions.com/Canon_ZR40_Digital_Camcorder__Camcorder_ZR40/display_~reviews

I will have to agree with one of the reviews - the battery life is poor. But when doing transfers/editing you should use the AC adaptor anyway.
Compared to my older Hi8 SONY the camera is VERY limited in features / options and it has a poor optical zoom (but then again how far away will the baby be ?!) My SONY had a date/time feature that appeared for a few seconds only once for of every calendar day of use as well as a few title functions. The date/time feature is missed but all titling and effects can be done in your editing program.

SOME ANSWERS

Does the software used to capture the DV signal make any difference in quality? ....what is the format of the file, when it's transferred to your hard drive?

Yes and errr no - DV is not captured - it is transferred directly to your harddrive on its original state. Windows sees it 'wrapped' as an *.AVI file. Quality loss will occur if changes are made to the original.
If you wish to edit then 'print to tape' (copy back to tape) in DV then look at the Main Concept DV codec. If you plan on re encoding into mpeg2 then the M$ codec will do fine.

Never heard of faster than real time DV transfers on consumer camcorders ... ... ... let me know if you find one.

As thorn said - DV ~ 3.7 Mb/sec = ~ 13Gb / hour. Any ata66 drive can handle these transfer speeds.
Since most DV tapes are 60 minutes a 20+ Gb of drive space should be OK for transfer/edit final product.

FYI
Finally ,when i was researching DV a while ago i read an intresting article on NOT mixing tape brands. Seems different maunfacturers use different 'chemicals' (for want of a better word) and mixing tapes led to tape sticking to the heads.



][

[troyvcd1]

you capture in .avi no matter what the software. The software should not make any difference in quality as long as it is capturing all of it good. I got a sony trv25 and ulead mediastudio 6. These seem to work good for me for capturing. If you want to convert to a svcd for your dvd player you need to use another program like tmpgenc or cce for any kind of decent quality.

[mrtristan]

Excellent. Thank you for the input, everyone.

If anyone else has any tips or advice, please feel free to share. Other than that, it's time to go robbing... I mean shopping.

[jtor]

question about MicroMV...

given that it writes to tape in MPEG2, and that firewire is the means to transfer the video to PC; does that mean the video is decompressed from MPEG2 (in the camcorder), and then recompressed to DV when transferred to a PC? The question has an obvious answer, but what about the quality after the decomp/recomp process?

[yg1968]

If you can spare the extra bucks, I would go for the Sony TRV-18 or TRV-25 for the following reasons:

1- it has passthrough that defeats macrovision (the Canon doesn't)
2- probably a better camcorder than the Canon. For example, it is very good in low light.

[Thorn]

Jtor: sony can do whatever it wants. Firewire isn't limited to transferring DV (although DV is locked to firewire). Since Mpeg2 is more compressed, it fits nicely in the 480mbps bandwidth of firewire.

[jtor]

Thorn,

...no offense meant, but I don't think we're on the same page here...

Firewire isn't limited to transferring DV (although DV is locked to firewire).

I'm well aware of that. There exists firewire devices in the market (HD, burners, etc). I don't recall saying firewire is only for DV transfers. What the sentence in my previous post implies is that firewire is the ideal way to transfer DV video to a PC. Actually, DV is NOT locked to firewire. If your DV camcorder has analog-out, you can use that option as well (thru an analog capture card)... I believe I've seen some posts here saying they're doing such thing. But I'm not saying anything on quality comparison...I'd rather use firewire.

Since Mpeg2 is more compressed, it fits nicely in the 480mbps bandwidth of firewire

I'm not sure if I got that correctly...but are you saying that the video on a microMV tape (which is in MPEG2) is transferred as is...thru firewire?

So how do you transfer video from your microMV camcorder to PC? Thru Firewire? And the video received by your PC, is it in DV-AVI or in MPEG2?

[yg1968]

The specifications say that it has an mpeg in/out or a microMV in/out but no DV in/out which makes sense since it does not use DV.

It seems that you will probably need an aditional 100$ kit that will be sold by Sony to transfer the mpeg-2 to your computer since most programs likely do not support mpeg-2 firewire transfers.

See:

http://money.cnn.com/services/tickerheadlines/prn/en-nytu063.P2.08052002234402.27044.htm

http://www.sonystyle.ca/webapp/commerce/servlet/ProductDisplay?merchant_rn=1&prrfnbr=3...start=0&page=1

http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/support/dvimag/micromv/MicroMV%20Query_1.html

[wobbletop]

I have one of the Sony MicroMV cameras... only one external software program supports it directly... pinnacle. Otherwise you have to use the sony movieshaker (no experience, but most people say 'ugh'), or use a filter program to transfer it from mpeg2 TS to PS (transport stream to program stream). No loss in quality, just a different mpeg2 format.

It does transfer the data digitally from camera to PC via firewire (should have no data loss). I have no experience with DV.

Camera itself is VERY small (almost smaller than my digital still camera). However, that means it takes some getting used to the controls. And the mics are located on the top/back end of the camera... not the best place.

Sony DCR-IP5

-Dubya

[yg1968]

wobbletop,

Does your microMV camcorder have a passthrough feature (i.e. can your camcorder transfer a "video in" signal directly to your computer through firewire)?

[wobbletop]

Passthrough is not mentioned in the manual.

-Dubya