MiniDV vs Digital8?

[PlaiBoi]

Hmm....now digital8 sounds pretty good. $2.00 tapes compared to $12.00 is a big differance. IM SO CONFUSED!!! lol. Digital8 sounds better because of price, but MiniDV sounds better because of features, size, and market share.

[Jester700]

8mm tapes ARE cheap (under $2 ea. in a 6 pack at Sam's club), but DVs aren't THAT bad. $7-ish, I think. Still, that was one consideration when I got my D8. Not a BIG one, but one.

[vcdfreak]

To me, the feature and the image quality are of more important factor to consider than price or format. The first thing that concerns me most is the way the tape is loaded. Sony camcorders(minDV or D8) less than US$800 usually comes with a bottom loading tape mechanism. This means you need to remove the camcorder from your tripod if you want to change a tape. For amateur forum/seminar shooters, you will lose out more time when you change tapes and also cause a bit of distraction when you remove your camcorder from your tripod.

Other feature to consider is whether manual white balance and exposure is supported. Most lower-end Sony camcorders don't support manual white balance and exposure. That means, you won't able to capture certain details when your scene is of high contrast. Manual exposure allows you the choose the area you want to light up more. Unless you get a high-end camcorder, it is usually able to capture all details in any lighting conditions.

The other thing to consider is the availability of wire remote control. It's good if you use a tripod. Wireless remote control is good but won't be if you are using a tripod. You need to bend your hand around to point your remote to the front side of your camcorder where the IR sensor resides. Panasonic camcorders usually comes with a free wire remote controller. Sony won't include it unless you buy a "Sony" tripod that attached to it. The use of remote instead of the buttons on the camcorders is to avoid shaking in case you don't know.

The only good thing I can think of for Sony camcorders is the display of exact remaining battery life. Other camcorders/cameras that uses non-Sony rechargable battery only shows 4 segments of battery life indicator, like in our mobile phone.


Whether you opt for DV or D8, these are the features you cannot ignore. It's good to read the user review in cnet.com before taking out your credit card from your wallet.


I would recommend Canon camcorders for good low light performance.
I would recommend Panansonic camcorders for good features.
I would recommend Sony camcorders for user friendliness.

For low budget semi-pro tripod user like myself, I use Panasonic miniDV camcorder with 80 min DV tape (120 min in LP mode). My next camcorder will be a Canon GL2 (low price for pro-level feature+image, 17x optical zoom, good low light performance, but bulky).


As for those who will make a DVD from your camcorder, you should opt for camcorders with better lens such as Carl Zeiss, Leica or Canon. VCD or SVCD won't need such lens as you don't use entire the DV resolutions. Carl Zeiss and Canon performs very well under low light conditions. Leica lens produce saturated color with acceptable low light performance.

Hope this helps a bit.

[jtor]

(or $12 for a miniDV)

...where did you see that $12 miniDV tape? Man, that's a rip off!!! Costco has TDK miniDV tapes (6pack) for $27; that's about $4.50 each.

I would recommend Canon camcorders for good low light performance.
I would recommend Panansonic camcorders for good features.
I would recommend Sony camcorders for user friendliness.

For low budget semi-pro tripod user like myself, I use Panasonic miniDV camcorder with 80 min DV tape (120 min in LP mode). My next camcorder will be a Canon GL2 (low price for pro-level feature+image, 17x optical zoom, good low light performance, but bulky).

vcdfreak, no offense meant, but I just have a few comments on your post:

- I don't think Sony belongs to the 'user friendly' camcorders; since you have to open up your LCD Monitor to access the Menu button, and all features of the camcorder are 'buried' deep inside the menus...you've probably wasted minutes (and missed the most important footage you need to shoot) once you reached that menu you wanted to access....unless you're referring to those new 'touch-screen' models; but then, I haven't played with those so I don't know how they fare against Canons (or old Sony models).

...and GL2 is 20X Optical Zoom (not 17X).

Now, going back to the original topic:

- If you already have a good amount of 8mm analog videos shot, you might as well go with a Digital8 that could play your analog 8mm videos (I said that because I thought I read somewhere that not all D8 models can do that, but I may be wrong so pls correct me).

- If you're pretty much going to 'start over', and you're going for the best quality you can get, go with miniDVs. And if you're not on a tight budget, hell, you might as well go with 3-CCD cams (TRV-950, GL2, VX2000, XL1S, etc).

It's kinda hard to give specific models as recommendations, because we don't know what you're after. It looks like this thread has given you a long list of models already. Go to their specific websites, get their features, make your comparison, and decide from there.

[SingSing]

If you already transfer the 8mm tape to VHDS/VCD,
or you have a 8mm camcorder or player.

Then you still start anew with miniDV.

I do own LP, but I did move on to CD.

[PlaiBoi]

Hmm...ok. I think i've pretty much decided to go with MiniDV since it seems to be the better technology and it seems to be staying here for a long time. I've decided that I have to get either a Sony or Canon. Sony and Canon i belive are the only ones that have analog inputs so i can transfer analog to digital, and because they are just high quality cameras. Now...im trying to choose between these 2 models. The Sony TRV25 or the Canon Elura 40MC. They both cost about the same price. The sony has more pixels, while the Elura is smaller in size.

[yg1968]

DV is a standard 720x480. The pixels refers to the image stills not the camcorder's resolution.

The Sony passthrough defeats macrovision. The Canon doesn't.

[PlaiBoi]

wait... So it duznt matter how many pixels the camera has? The video quality is the same for all MiniDV cams? I always thought the more pixels it had, the better the quality, like digital still cameras. I dont give a shit about the still capabilities of the camera. I already have a 2.0 megapixel fuji digi cam and it works great. If thats the case...then I can just get TRV18 (instead of TRV25) since there isnt anything different between the two except the TRV25 has better stills, or I can get one of the Canon ZR series.

[Jester700]

The pixels DO matter, but it's only one of many factors.
1) How good are the optics (good luck getting any specs for THAT)
2) How many ACTIVE pixels are actually used in capturing video? Not still image pixels; not before subtracting the area used for EIS; the REAL number
3) How big is the CCD? How MANY CCDs?
4) How good are the image processing electronics, and how do they modify the image? How adjustable are they?

WRT the above info on D8, I have to say on the whole they've DECREASED in overall desirability in the last few years. My TRV120 was the BOTTOM model, yet it had a 1/4" CCD, line & mic in, headphone out, SIDE eject tape door, could play back 8mm & Hi8 tapes with TBC & DNR, had analog>DV passthru, and was $500 when they discontinued it.

There was also semi-manual exposure - very course control, but it was there.

Why they wrecked the low end, I'll never know.

[vcdfreak]

JTOR, thanks for correcting my mistake. The GL2 optical zoom is 20x instead of 17X. Always confused with its 1.7Mpix still photo resolution.

However, the Sony D8 models are more user-friendly than the mini-DV ones. You don't need to open the LCD window to access to the tape control buttons. I was also comparing to my Panasonic unit. Sony is still better but lose out in the ability to zoom in 3 speeds. Meaning, you can't create professional look video with Sony camcorders as you can only zoom with 1 speed (the fastest type).

TRV18 has the best bang for your buck as mentioned in TechTV.

IF AND ONLY IF you are not using a Tripod.

Again, TRIPOD USERS, you'll regret if you get a Sony as it has a bottom tape loading mechanism. Please take note.

[vcdfreak]

Good Article to read:

http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/shownotes/story/0,23008,3388880,00.html

[PlaiBoi]

That article suggests that the TRV18 is a good choice and that was what i was thinking also. It rated the quality of the video a 5, being excellent, and mostly everything else was also rated 5. I think the TRV18 is the way to go. The ZR series seemed tempting, but after reading that article, it seems that their video quality cant compete with Sony, and im used to high quality Sony (have a sony 8mm).

The only downside I see is the 10x optical zoom. How bad will the picture look if i zoom digital zoom for another 10x, so ill be zooming in 20x (about equal to the ZR)?

[energy80s]

Don't use digital zoom at all. Absolutely dreadful .. even at the best of times!!

And I wouldn't worry about having to take the camcorder off the tripod to change tapes as how often do you take continuous 60 minute shots anyway!

[SingSing]

DV is a standard 720x480. The pixels refers to the image stills not the camcorder's resolution.

The Sony passthrough defeats macrovision. The Canon doesn't.

Does Sony defeat both macrovision 1 and macrovision 2 ?

Does the analog output also defeat macrovision ?

[SingSing]

Sharp digitalview cam nv100 is now at $348 after rebate.

It unique design let you use two hands to hold the cam,
that's means you can switch off the image stabilisation.
DIS normally make picture un-natural.

I think canon uses mechnical IS therefore do not
has DIS aritfact.

[130T|_|L15/\/\]

My Sonny Handycam isn't a bottom loader, works fine with the tripod. when ejecting, it pushes up and out to the right. Tapes are loaded from the top.

I enjoy my 30x TRV81. Its old, but it has been very faithful. Never failed on my yet, unless I forget to charge my InfoLITHIUM batteries. Only one thing that baffles me. On the bottom, right under the analog input/output, and the headphone plug. There is a little cover that can be popped out with a small screw driver. I see a little connection. Rectangular shaped. Maybe 20 pins. Roughly 1 cm by .5 cm. I looked in my manual and it is not mentioned. Anyone have Ideas?

[yg1968]

SingSing,

The Sony passthrough defeats Macrovision for DVDs and VHS. (Technically, the passthrough has a protection called ID2 but very few capturing software detects this protection. As far as I know only Sony provided software detects this protection.) However, you cannot copy macrovision protected material directly onto a DV tape. You must use the passthrough and capture the file onto your computer. The analog output does not defeat macrovision.

[SingSing]

Thanks for the info.

This means the user has to capture the entire movie on harddrive in huge
avi filr, send it back into camcorder, then copy to VHS ?

Will the macrovision pass back to the camcorder ?

[yg1968]

You could send the video from your computer to your VCR through your computer's TV out (if you have one). You can use a shareware program called TVViewer to do this. You don't need to capture the file to do this since it previews in full view mode.

Or else you can export back the DV file with a freeware program called DVIO, disable the DV out on your camcorder's menu, connect your VCR to your camcorder and press record on your VCR. There is no need to copy to a DV tape. I have only tried this with non-macrovision protected material but I am pretty sure that it would work with macrovision material. I would have to try it to be sure but I would be surprised if it doesn't work.

[jtor]

However, the Sony D8 models are more user-friendly than the mini-DV ones. You don't need to open the LCD window to access to the tape control buttons.

vcdfreak,

...I didn't say anything about 'tape control buttons', so there's a misunderstanding. What I said in my post was in relation to the camcorder's features, buried deep inside the MENUs. Sony has been consistent on this, I just hope they've changed this in later models.

Having a zoom speed control is really nice. Bummer they made GL2 a 1.7MP cam (and simple audio control added). But then, I'm still very happy with my GL1.

Plaiboi,

...I'd advise you to gather all info you can on TRV18/25 and ZR45/50 camcorders. Or, some websites offer a side-by-side comparison, you might want to do that. Only you can decide on the brand/model, because you know what you want, and what you need. Or, go straight to an electronics store, and play with their display models.

[SingSing]

Let me setup the : sharp digital view-cam, ATI-AIW, Sharp SVHS and find out.

[yg1968]

I have a Sony (TRV-25). I don't know if this works for a Sharp digital camcorder. Does your Sharp have passthrough or video in?

[SingSing]

yes, but the manual said you can't record copy protected material
on the cam. It did not say anthing about pass thorugh.

[PlaiBoi]

@jtor
I read that article that was posted by vcdfreak and have pretty much decided that I want to go with the TRV18. It got great ratings from TechTV. Also, i want to make sure that the amount of pixels the camera has doesnt effect the quality of the video, is this 100% sure? If this true, then i have no need to get the TRV25, because the only advantage it has over the TRV18 is more pixels and "MPEG EX" mode, which i probably wont use much.

[Bstansbury]

Plaiboi; Thanks for starting this discussion. With all the appends I really got interested in this subject and read it all. I also did a lot of reading on the net. If I were you I would re-think your decision on the TRV-18. I know that someone gave you the impression that "Pixels" don't matter that much,... and if you don't care about video quality, it's your choice. However, The video resolution you will get will be much sharper with the TRV-25 since it is a Megapixel camcorder. The TRV-18 only has 680,000 CCD res, and of that only 360,000 are active. The TRV-25 has 680,000 active pixel resolution. The difference in price is about $80. In the long run, you will want the better resolution. That's my 2 cents.

As others have indicated, if you don't have a large library of old 8mm analog tapes, I would think the MiniDV is the way to go. Personally, I have 10 years worth of 8mm video and I'm going towards the TRV-840. Both are bottom loading so that is not a choice. I don't like it, but in the last 10 years (with two generations of Canon camcorders) I've never used a tripod. Ever try to take a picture of a 3 year old while the camera was mounted on a tripod. A good place to do comparisons of camcorders is the Cnet web page, or here is another one.

http://www.mpsuperstore.com/video/indexMy.htm?discr7319.htm

Lots of luck with your decision.

[yg1968]

I apologize for confusing you. I thought that you meant that it was a better camcorder because of its image still resolution of 1152x864 (megapixels for digital stills). But it also happens to have higher pixels for video (690k for the TRV-25) than the TRV-18 (340k) which I didn't know.

See this article and the related comments on the subject of CCD pixels:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/tweleve_questions_four.htm

Anyways, I had decided to get the TRV-25 myself because I figured it would be worth the extra $80 (or Cdn$100). Here are the specs of the Sony TRV-18 and TRV-25:

http://www.sonystyle.ca/webapp/commerce/servlet/CategoryDisplay?merchant_rn=1&cgrfnbr=...ent=CAMCORDERS

[PlaiBoi]

@Bstansbury and @yg1968
Thanx for that info. Ok, so now I know that more pixels is better, and infact they do matter. (As I thought) I guess ill move up to the TRV25 now, because the TRV18 is pretty lacking on the amount of active pixels it has.

What do you think of your TRV25 yg1968? Good video quality?

[yg1968]

I am happy with it. I think that the video quality looks very good. It works well even in low light. I also use it as a capturing device. It works very well for that also. I haven't really tried other camcorders. My brother has a JVC and he says the video on my camcorder looks better than his. But other than that, it's hard for me to compare.

[thebatjeep]

Maybe its the ADD and my short attention span that i didnt notice anyone mentioning that MiniDV has 520 (i think) lines where Dig8 has 480(or something around there) lines of resolution. (horizontal)

I like my MiniDV camera, id stick with MiniDV, i just wish i had the night shot feature you can get on a relatively cheap Sony Dig8 cameara, or a $1000 Sony MiniDV camera

[sammie]

Not much to add to what has said above. But I think ultimately the format that will "win" is the one that comes up with a good consumer level set top box that doubles as a firewire tape drive. The only thing out there that I am aware of right now are the Sony Video Walkman, which are absolutely great, but at $600 - $900 way outside the typical consumer level price range. Plus they don't have a built in tuner