VCD = VHS Quality???

[Treebeard]

I see your point and agree.

I wouldnt burn up the money on a dvd disc unless the source is from a dvd rip or a dv camera.

anything less than that is probably better suited (moneywise) on cd's

just an opinion but there it is.

[snowmoon]

The reason to use DVD is MAX bitrate of 9.8mbps. VCD's and SVCD's major quality limiting factor is the fact that it can only peak at 1150 and 2748 ( combined ) repectivly. Currenty I use SVCD since it gives the best tradeoff between quality, size, and peak rate.

[Treebeard]

I also opt for SVCD but the biggest factor for not getting into dvd/r yet is purely $$$$ Just too expensive for the benefits over SVCD.

I generally get my cd's for about 6 cents each.

so to copy a movie it costs --> 2.99(rental fee) .12(for discs) .25(labels)
Total of $3.36.

This far outweighs the cost of a dvdr drive and $5 dollar dvd discs.

Maybe in another year or so it will be more affordable.

[snowmoon]

This far outweighs the cost of a dvdr drive and $5 dollar dvd discs.

Name brand disks go for 1-2$ and no-name's and unbranded disks go for less than $1/disk.

So with multi-pass VBR and an average bitrate of 3000kbps ( max 8mbps ) you would be able to fit 2 movies/disk. So

$6.27 for 2 movies on SVCD or
$4.25 for 2 movies on DVD

even at 2$/disk that's still only 5.25 for 2 movies.

I'll admit the drives are what's keeping the market down at this point, but I'm expecting bare drives to break $150 within 6 months ( already seen 1 for $170 ).

Cheers

[Treebeard]

The reason to use DVD is MAX bitrate of 9.8mbps

So with multi-pass VBR and an average bitrate of 3000kbps ( max 8mbps ) you would be able to fit 2 movies/disk.

Okay the price of discs are coming down & someday the drives will be affordable. But now your throwing your reason for using DVD's(9.8mbps) out the window by using 3000 avg bitrate in your cost effective example

[snowmoon]

Average bitrate != MAX peak bitrate. SVCD's average bitrate od 2mbps is good for 90% of the time, allowing it only to peak at 2500 is what's holding it back.

720x480 at a multi-pass average of 3mbps ( MAX 8-9mbps ) will look identical to the source on all but the most demanding DVD, but since you are going to SVCD so you already have much worse quality issues.

[Treebeard]

tou-che'

[baker]

Thats it,

I never make vcd.

I make cvd.

My cvd guide is quite good, good quailty,speed and audio

But just for you guys out there stuck with vcd i am going to make a dvd2avi->vdub->tmpegenc

A few filter tricks etc.

Baker

[paulgab]

To make a compliant VCD via TMPGEnc, you really have very few tweaking options available because it must be CBR @ 1150. I just use the default VCD template, but make sure and select at least "HIGH (SLOW)" for encode quality (its within the 2nd tab when you click "settings"; sorry I can't remember the title of the tab right now).

Some people recommend trying various filters to clean up the video during the encode (search the forum). I have never done that as my captures thru the DV-cam are very clean to begin with.

What I do in making a good quality vcd is to capture at 7000kbps 720x480
CBR using Power Director (captures better than UV6) then I used TMPGenc
VCD template to encode white book VCD.

[vhelp]

evening guys.

riker64,
In short, VCD vs. VHS?? I would have to say, VHS.
But, it all depends... on your source ie DVD vs. AVI capture.
In most cases, a DVD transfer to VCD would yield almost or virtually
identical quality. But, that also depends on the individual user who is
doing the encoding! From a beginner, ie yourslef, you'll probably not
get at best VHS quality. But in time you may or may not. Depends, and
by the time you or anyone else here (that are still having problmes w/
achieving VHS quality) will either be too late, or not bother, due to
newer tech. that is always revolving ever so quickly. You'll probably
give up, and go w/ the newer tech, etc.

There are all kinds of reasons why you get good qualiyt on your
TV and/or PC play. It's a mix of things.

About the only one good thing, when comparing VCD vs. VHS is the fact
that by the time you have looked at your VHS tape(s) more than 3 or more
times, you start to notice certain artifacts like ie lines going down
the screen, or sound is humming or maing staticly noise or something
like that, etc, etc. ...that, the VCD will be the winner. Cause a VCD
can be played over and over, and every time you play it, it's like popping
in a fresh NEW vhs tape - so to speak.

As for your source being from an AVI capture, it's harder to compare the
VCD vs. VHS scenario. You have to be pretty damn good an encoder to
achieve VHS quality VCDs.
I've done lots of VHS to VCD transfers, and I can safely say, that for
the most part, its not VHS quality, though close. That's using
tricks and techniques like IVTC (pending on source) and filtering chain
during encoding. A god filter chain can match a VHS source almost to
a 10 (1 to 10 scale) being say, an 8.
It'll be damn hard, for a newbie (beginner) to achieve this feat!
Take my word for it. You can't just pick up someone's GUIDE (be it here
or anywheres) and follow it to the letter, and achieve your goal. Will
never happen. There are too many variables, for a beginner to accomplish
this. You have to develop scars during the process and THAT takes time!
Lots of what-ifs and lem'ee-see and what-nots.

About the best VHS for CDRs are those store bought ones. Those that are
done digitally. When you record (w/ your VCR) a TV show from say, a
Satalite source, don't expect it to be crisp and clear. Even if your
source was from DVD, though very close to in comparison to store bought
movies.
You are not taking into account, that your recording to VHS tapes are
just not accurate enought ie tracking, scewing, sync etc. ie, ever see
your taping jitter or be wavy in some scenes. Every VCR is different.
You can safely bet that YOUR vcr is NOT of Studio quality. And, there
are those that come w/ TBC (Time Base Corrector) that's another issue
when it comes to your capture's final quality, ie frame drops, etc.
Getting a TBC may or may not cure your frame drops. In most cases, you
wont cure them, but you may reduce them w/ a TBC. And, sometimes,
applying a TBC will make your final capture even worse, as I've experienced!
I finally got a TBC because I must have quality (or as close to it)
for my VHS transfers. I got tired of the frame drops. But, guess what?
Even w/ my TBC, I still get frame drops! though not as many, on some
tapes, while on other, just as many or more. sometimes, your tapes are
fine to begin with, (it could be your hardware, ie mb, sound card, IRQ
inperupts, timings, etc) causing frame drops. It just all depends on a
number of factors, and the list IMO, is long!
I theorize that the DC10+ card has a form of TBC built-in. And, based
on my experience, it's a GOOD card to get for VHS source. This card
loves to lock in on your video's signal or sync... whatever.

Another issue w/ quality from VHS source is MV (macrovsion)
Believe it or not, MV is another hamper in final capture quality. It's
issues are:
* video instablility (during capturing, but not on your TV)
* sometimes, audio issues, but rare
* messes w/ color quality
* interfears w/ your capture cards ability to get a true lock on sync
* etc.
All the above affect you when you capture from your vcr. However, when
you play on your TV set, all is ok.

Also, another issue is Line Noise. Something I've ben suffering
from w/ ALL my capture cards except the DC10+ card. Whenever I capture
from a VHS source (though DVD and Satalite show minor noise) I get
these blastid Line Noise in my captured source. This also adds
hampering in your final encodes.

VCRs were designed to act this way!
All vcr's are designed w/ MV circuitry of various sorts, and will cause
hauvic for your capture cards, unless you have a card that is shielded
from MV like the DC10+ card.
So, even when you record your own tv shows, you'll be affected by MV.
Not that you have any MV on your tapes, but because MV is a part of
the process, even your own recorded tapes are effected by it when you
finally do capture from these taped. I'm taling about those areas such
as video sync and the like.
Granted, VCRs are not 720x480 reslutions, rather much lower than that.
Much.

This is all refering to VHS source, NOT S-VHS.
However, when comparing VCD vs. VHS, this debate is pointless or MOOT!
Because, after a few playings, the VHS DOES show signes of ware! I've
played a few store bought movies 2 or 3 times, and let me tell you, you
already begin to see degrasions ie lines etc. etc. So, arguing wheather
a VCD is better than VHS or vis versa IS POINTLESS!!

Filtering...
Learn it! For VHS sources, a good filter chain is a must. You just
wont get a good VCD w/out it. As for a SVCD or xDVD etc., this is yet
anothe issue. My recommend is to make CVD/SVCD (or xSVCD/xDVD) out of
VHS sources if you can.
Using too strong a set of values in your NR (Noise Reduction) filter
will always end up producing Ghosting or Video Bleeding (where some
left over or parts from prev. scene overlaps current video's frame)
Some filters to look into are:
* temporals ie, smoothers etc.
* 2D cleaners (all sorts)
* fxVHS (best one around, but VERY slow, and TRICKY to use) this one
i've masterd almost to a "T" for Cartoons and Clamation videos, ie
Chicken Run, Monsters Inc. etc.
However, if you are encoding your VHS captures w/ high bitrates, ie
4000 or greater, then you may ease up on the filtering, if any at all...
well, it depends on your capture quality, and the source being captured
etc.

I post Samples of various sources ie, from VHS to DVDs.
All my samples are captured and encoded, except where noted ie DVD rips.
But, from time to time, I'll post a VHS sample. In fact, you may have
missed one I recently posted, 0924.1.vhelp.vhs.mpg. These and
many more you can find at my VHELP's Sample... thread.
I may be posting a new one soon, so you should look and see if you've
D/L'ed the latest sample now, if you have the time. If I have the time
and a decent VHS source handy/near by, I'll try and post a sample if
anyone is interested. Anyways. . .
I always post a new sample ever few days or approx once a week.

Well, I could go on and on, as there is so much more to talk about
but i'll stop here.

If you truely want the best quality from your VHS source, you have to
spend at least a few dollars for it. Some items to put on a list are:
* develop (learn) a filter chain
* develop better MPEG Encoding processes and skills
* Color correctors
* Video stablizers
* MV removers
* TBC (cheapest is $200 on the web) else in the UNdredes/THOUSands.
Or, get a Studio Broadcasters Video Capture Card... $5000 or something
like that, maybe higher even. These are cards that TV stations use
for maximum quality reproduction.

Remember, don't get confused w/ DVD quality. You cannot achieve this
from a VHS source!
The Garbadge in Garbadge out will always apply, when source is VHS.
Even store bought movies are such, but at least it's Studios/Hollywoods
Garbadge, he, he...

-vhelp

[THE RIPPER]

The Ripper:

What would I set my capture settings to (all settings) to capture XVCD. My DVD set top manual doesn't say it will NOT play these. I would like to try.

-Tom

when i do i vhs capture, i capture at full resolution,720x480, at max settings,then rencode with tmpge at vcd resolution, but with a bit rate between 2000-2500 .

[SatStorm]

VHS has a benefit over VCD: Supports Interlace.
Also, VHS players over the years became amazing. VCD players are at best "good".

There is no way a VCD became as good a pro VHS. It is about 90 % in quality of VHS.
A xSVCD with VCD bitrate/resolution yes: It could be equal with hard work and CCE. That happens because xSVCD is based on mpeg 2 and mpeg 2 support interlace material. But you are -X- !

CVD is more that VHS, in a way is a waste of bitrate/resolution/filesize, but it is not -X- and it is the only "close" VHS resolution compatible with DVD. Sure, 352 X 288/240 also supported by DVD, but only as mpeg 1, so again, no intrace. Only progressive...

CVD is equal SVHS.

For those ask for resolutions, here : http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/94382.php

VHS resolution is 388 X 288, the closest match is 352 X 288 PAL, 240 NTSC.
SVHS is 400 X 520, the closest match is 352 X 576 PAL, 480 NTSC.
some others, prefer 480 X 576/480. For me this adds noise...

[vhelp]

morning all.

I've just posted a sample of a Standard VCD from a VHS source.
It's not my best, but remember, it's a Standard VCD, from a VHS, and
a store bought movie.
Actualy, I was expecting it to be blurry this time, but for some reason, as
I play it on my Apex AD-1500, not too blurry after all.
I was also expecting lots of blocks, but so far it looks pretty good. But,
to be perfectly honest w/ you's, I wouldn't claim it to be VHS quality, but
then again, you be the judge, and see for yourself, as I've often experienced
how different DVD players play better than others, and TV size DOES
matter, he, he...
MY tv size is 13".

Well, have a good morning/day all.

-vhelp

[snowmoon]

CVD is more that VHS, in a way is a waste of bitrate/resolution/filesize, but it is not -X- and it is the only "close" VHS resolution compatible with DVD. Sure, 352 X 288/240 also supported by DVD, but only as mpeg 1, so again, no intrace. Only progressive...

...

For those ask for resolutions, here : http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/94382.php

VHS resolution is 388 X 288, the closest match is 352 X 288 PAL, 240 NTSC.
SVHS is 400 X 520, the closest match is 352 X 576 PAL, 480 NTSC.
some others, prefer 480 X 576/480. For me this adds noise...

Nothing like a little self promotion?

I don't doubt some of the numbers, but the numbers for analog signals seem to be guesswork on your part based on noise level of the singal.

This page seems to be more on the mark, just make sure to pick the set of images for the right aspect ratio.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~leopold/Ld/ResolutionComparison/

And this page sheds more light on video "resolutions"

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/essay-video-resolution-july-99.html

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/copy/copy.html

I hope that people will learn that analog and digial domains are almost impossible to map between in terms of "Resolution". An upper limit can be placed on analog signals by simple math, but that's all.

[broderp]

I don't know where you guys get these fuzzy pictures from to show the differences between VHS and DVD etc...

Noise in the form of "grainyness" is evident on VHS, but the picture is still clear and free of BLURRING or DISTORTIONS on my TV as you guys are showing here. Maybe I'm just lucky, but a VCD of TV captured with my ATI AIW, and burned to CD-RW with STUDIO 8 looks like a First Generation Taping on VHS on my Sony 27" TV.
I, like most people, must just be use to the Grainy nature of VHS. Yes DVD is amazing, but for my archival purposes, I have been doing VHS for years, and currently VCD is comparible to VHS tapes. Besides, I usually go out and BUY the shows/movies on DVD when they become available.

For Home movies, it only makes sence to save to the best possible medium, DVD, if I had a DVD burner, I would.

The only time VCD has made a difference (negative) is when playing on my 53" Sony TV. Here the pixilation is noticable if your closer than 10FT from the screen. Even at 960i, pixilation is just a tad distressing. I have found that by properly CALIBRATING my TV to ISF standards, (AND LETTING MYSELF GET USE TO IT) you can almost "GAIN" back detail lost by over-bright, over sharpened and improper colored settings on most people's TVs.

Using SVCD for this would be the next step that I'm sure would make up for the bit of PIXILATION introduced in the VCD. The only reason I use VCD is I can't get 45 minutes of Video on a CD-RW. If I wanted it perfect, I would buy the DVD when it becomes avialable, whichI will then erase these discs and start over.

RB

[SatStorm]

My friend snowmoon, I don't have to promote myself....
Others have to...

The who I am, is well known in the scene....

My articles, are not the best ones in the net, but they are easy to understand. It is a good startpoint for newbies. If someone want more, can always search for better (and more) information.

My articles look also bad, because of limited english language skills.

PS: Good links

[thxkid]

If anyone still uses just VHS they have a screw loose, its the worst format ever designed, they really improved it with SVHS and thats the only style of VCR's I own, and nothing less than a JVC.
VCD's are good for newbies to try out on and if I do VCD's know I use the same template in TMPGE for MPEG2 and just change some things around so it will fall into a somw what VCD standard, this 1150 is for the birds.
For a while I really thought you could not get a fantastic coding of SVCD until I used DVD2SVCD and ripped a DVD, WOW was I impressed, almost the same quailty as the original DVD and heck of a lot better than Crap-VHS or SVHS, but like most VCD and SVCD its becoming a way of the past with DVD writers and DVD recorders on the rise and prices falling all the time on the hardware and media. I don't even bother using VCR's anymore since I got both of my Panasonic DVD Recorders, who would want to. I use to make VCD or SVCD just for Home Family stuff, now I just mix it all in AVI at 720x480, encode it at 8000 bitrate then output the MPEG2 over to my DVD Recorder, plan to add the DVD burner after christmas to burn directly on the computer when the drives fall below $200, specially with the 4x coming out.

[davewave]

I think this topic has had the most amount of replies that I have seen,
Being an 'old-timer' of digital video...
I have several original VCDs (mainly James Bond), and at the time when they were released in the UK (approx 1997) modern VHS players/recorders
weren't around (4 head, nicam etc). So it was better then. VCD was 352x288 pixels and VHS was 250(approx) vertical lines with (unlimited) horizontal anologue resolution. I don't know what the current resolution of 'modern'
VHS, perhaps somebody could enlighten me.
Cheers for now.
The Captain.

[snowmoon]

I think you are just off by a little

VHS ~ 230x 480scanlines

[energy80s]

Not sure where you are getting the idea that 4 head Nicam vcr's are a recent innovation. I had my first six head Hi-Fi stereo machine in 1985 and Nicam in 1989 (a year before the Nicam service launched in the UK). Standard VHS resolution is 270 lines. Standard SVHS res is 420 lines. Betamax was 280 lines with less Chroma noise so looked a lot better than VHS even though it was only slightly better resolution. The best system of the lot was the Phillips Video 2000 system, but as it wasn't supported by the rental chains (and was too late coming into the marketplace) it failed miserably. I have a similar feeling about DVD-RAM, undoubtly the best home video DVD recording system available at present, but it is likely to die on its ass because of poor marketing, expensive nature of the decks, incompatibility and late arrival into the marketplace.

It's looking more and more likely that DVD-R will be the new VHS for home users.

[buickcoupe]

Vhelp You did a great job explaining vhs to vcd being a newbie it was great reading. I am in the process of wanting to convert my old vhs to prefer some format used on DVD-R for the max length and putting chapters in. I have been working with filters big time with not much luck at this time, my big problem is during motion I get what looks like interlaced lines on the edges. Do you have a area that talks more about filter chains on your site? I have been mostly working with one filter at a time which sounds like the wrong thing to do. Thanks

[vhelp]

Morning all.

wow, I just realised that I put the WRONG sample VCD clip up. I D/L'ed
it and burned it. I just can't understand what I did wrong, other dan
mixing up the filenames and moving files around. Must of screwed up
somewheres. Now I know why Nero didn't like it the first time in my
post above. Sorry about that. I'll have to find another clip maybe. But,
I was already planning on another clip all-to-gether!

I'm deleting this clip right now. Anyways. . .

Does anyone have any suggestions on a sample they'd like to see posted
here ??
If so, please specify what video you'd like, and if I have the tape, i'll go
and do a quick one 8)

-vhelp