VCD = VHS Quality???

[Riker64]

I am trying to figure out how people can say VCD is equal to VHS quality. I am creating VCDs but my quality looks worse than VHS, very blurry and pixely when watching on a TV via a set top DVD player.

I import composite analog video, either from my VCR or camcorder, directly into MPEG1 for the VCD. It looks good when played on the PC with a monitor resolution of 1024x768, but on TV, it looks terrible.

Is it because my source is analog composite? If I had a digital camcorder, would it be VHS quality? Please advise.

My system:

Soyo Dragon + Mobo
AMD XP 1700+
PNY Optima 512 MB PC2100 DDR RAM
Maxtor 80 GB ATA-100, 60 GB ATA-100 HDs
Teac 40x12x48 CD-RW
Best Data 12x DVD ROM
ATI All In Wonder 128 Pro AGP - 32 MB
Ulead VideoStudio 6.02

Thanx,

-Tom

[Treebeard]

I suggest moving on to SVCD if you can its better than VHS quality. i started out making VCDs and wasnt satisfied with the quality so i moved on to SVCD and they are much better quality.

[Riker64]

Only trouble is that my set top player doesn't support SVCD, only VCD.

-Tom

[Treebeard]

Have you tried using the header trick. That is how i get my player to play svcds.

http://www.geocities.com/newestmoviesencode/dvdvcd

do this and then burn as a VCD nonstandard

[epo]

Yes, SVCD is comparable with VHS (slight artifacts vs. color noise) and often better. VCD with inferior encoding system and lower resolution is far behind.

[ghettoflower]

Is is possible to fit a regular movie on a SVCD?

[Treebeard]

I generally put about 50-60 minutes of video on each disc. You can get near dvd quality if you put about 40 minutes of video on each disc.

[Riker64]

SLBOSS926:

How do I burn VCD NonStandard? Could you step me through this?

Do I capture as SVCD? I use Ulead VS 6 or ATI TV capture software.

Do I save as MPEG1 file, do TMPGEnc header trick? What do I use to burn SVCD with? I have Ulead VS 6 and EZ CD Creator Platinum.

If I could be stepped through one SVCD that makes my DVD Set Top player think it is a VCD, I would be forever greatful!

TIA,

-Tom

[Treebeard]

You will need to have a mpeg2 file so capture as mpeg2. when you do the header trick do it just like in the picture of that previous link.
not familiar with ez cd creator, in nero there is a check box for making standard cd & I uncheck it.
You will select VCD in your burning software and choose the file that you created by doing the header trick in tmpgenc

[Riker64]

Sorry for hounding, but I truly am a Newbie...

When I capture MPEG2 file, what size do I use, 720x480?

Won't the VCD burning software say it is not a VCD file (MPEG1)?

-Tom

[G-man]

My guess is that you would see an improvement using a digital camcorder, but doing a good encoding job (I suggest TMPGEnc) makes a big difference as well.

I burn most of my stuff onto DVD-R now (input captured thru a Canon ZR-40 via analog passthru) and it looks fanatastic. But every once in a while I will put something on VCD because its not worth the long VBR encode time and waste of (relatively more) expensive DVD media. The VCDs look very good (I would say slightly better than VHS) and definitely nothing to be ashamed of.

[Treebeard]

i use 480x480 that is tmpgenc's default size for mpeg2. also your software will say its not a compliant file, you should be able to tell it to turn off the compliance and burn anyway.

[Riker64]

G-Man:

Could you explain how you do your procedure? I have no idea how to "Do a good job encoding" using TMPGEnc - although I do have this software.

I have looked all over the web for a step by step guide on how to do a VCD that looks REALLY good on a TV, but can't find one.

Can you offer a step by step? Especially when you say "good job encoding". How?

TIA,

-Tom

[G-man]

To make a compliant VCD via TMPGEnc, you really have very few tweaking options available because it must be CBR @ 1150. I just use the default VCD template, but make sure and select at least "HIGH (SLOW)" for encode quality (its within the 2nd tab when you click "settings"; sorry I can't remember the title of the tab right now).

Some people recommend trying various filters to clean up the video during the encode (search the forum). I have never done that as my captures thru the DV-cam are very clean to begin with.

[Riker64]

Thanx for everyone's help and advice. I'll try it out and see how it works.

In the meantime, if anyone can point me to a STEP BY STEP guide on making a high quality VCD, I would appreciate it!

Thanx again,

-Tom

[vitualis]

I am trying to figure out how people can say VCD is equal to VHS quality. I am creating VCDs but my quality looks worse than VHS, very blurry and pixely when watching on a TV via a set top DVD player.

I import composite analog video, either from my VCR or camcorder, directly into MPEG1 for the VCD. It looks good when played on the PC with a monitor resolution of 1024x768, but on TV, it looks terrible.

Is it because my source is analog composite? If I had a digital camcorder, would it be VHS quality? Please advise.

Nobody seems to have answered this directly so I will.

Yes, it is because of your source. As the adage goes garbage in, garbage out. Your VCD will never look as good as your source and if you source video is relatively noisy, it will look even worse (MPEG has a difficult time with encoding noisy video).

It also appears that you are using a real time MPEG encoder? Consumer level real time MPEG encoders generally perform poorly in quality when compared to software encoders (if you are encoding directly to VCD spec MPEG-1).

When comparing VCD to VHS, we are referring what VCD can look like at its best. For the hobbyist, this well generally be making a VCD from a high quality source such as a DVD rip.

The quality from this will generally be comparable to VHS (it will probably look better than a VHS recording you make of a DVD but slightly inferior to a studio mastered new VHS release). The audio quality will be near CD quality (and hence vastly superior to VHS).

However, VHS quality degrades quickly with mutliple viewings. VCD quality will remain unchanged being a digital medium (at least for the expected usage lifetime of the disc).

SVCD at its best will look greatly superior to VCD. It is comparable to SVHS.

Regards.

[epo]

Don't agree. Studio mastered VHS is not the best You can get. And taking this into acount, VHS is superiour. About SVHS being wastly superiour compared to VHS. It depends. From progressive source it's obvious. From interlaced source it has hard time with fast pans (blockiness) and often has problems with detail level (human faces shot from distance). All this vs. VHS-s slight color noise on large bright colored surfaces. It's subjective.
BTW i'm talking about captures from DVB-S (slightly inferior to DVD) or analog sat. broadcast (@36MHz superiour to everything else), sources basically without noise.
One thing is also PAL/NTSC, cause at least SVCD gains from pulldown. Also VHS format is different.

Yes, (S)VCD lasts longer (not forewer tough as no error correction is included to ensure lossless copying). It also is cheaper and takes less space, but all this is totally out of scope

Audio quality is superiour as most people can not substitute MP2 from CD and there is no modulation noise and "artifacts" (my bad english )like even HiFi has

[vitualis]

Don't agree. Studio mastered VHS is not the best You can get. And taking this into acount, VHS is superiour.

Sure. Very very good VHS can probably look better than a well made VCD, but not after multiple viewings. In terms of top of the range equipment, it is somewhat hard to compare. I've never seen anything better than studio mastered VHS and similarly, I can't really get my hands on a professional hardware MPEG-1 encoder either...

About SVHS being wastly superiour compared to VHS...

I don't believe I mentioned this... Rather, I stated that a well made SVCD will look greatly superior to a well made VCD. This should be fairly evident when you've made both.

One thing is also PAL/NTSC, cause at least SVCD gains from pulldown. Also VHS format is different.

Not entirely sure what you mean here... SVCDs don't official support NTSC-FILM framerates and I'm pretty sure that the regularly done pulldown flag method isn't part of the specs either. However, since stand-alone SVCD players are a rare beast it probably doesn't matter...

BTW, standard VCD1.1 and VCD2.0 support NTSC-FILM framerates (i.e., 23.976 fps progressive) in the specs. If you make your VCDs at this framerate, you are effectively boosting your bitrate by 25%.

Yes, (S)VCD lasts longer (not forewer tough as no error correction is included to ensure lossless copying). It also is cheaper and takes less space, but all this is totally out of scope

Well, CD-R/CDs don't last forever but the lifespan of a well kept/handled S/VCD with regular playing will be much longer than that of VHS.

Lack of ECC isn't a big issue -- similar to CD-DA (audio CDs).

Regards.

[epo]

Not entirely sure what you mean here... SVCDs don't official support NTSC-FILM framerates

It is irrelevant for me (25 fps with PAL anyway) and that's, why I mixed SVCD and VCD. Anyway. NTSC VCD is superiour compared to PAL VCD. But NTSC VHS seems to be inferiour compared to PAL VHS. No personal experience about this, except home videos shot in NTSC (from various shows) seem catastrophic compared to anything I have seen here in Europe. There is difference in tape speed and in modulation - that I meant by different format.

Lack of ECC isn't a big issue -- similar to CD-DA (audio CDs).

Anyway, making identical copies is impossible. And as (S)VCD is encoded, it is more vulnerable.[/quote]

[THE RIPPER]

Only trouble is that my set top player doesn't support SVCD, only VCD.

-Tom

iker, have you tried xvcd , just raise the bitrate of the vcd to 2000-2500 ,much improvement from vhs captures

[vitualis]

It is irrelevant for me (25 fps with PAL anyway) and that's, why I mixed SVCD and VCD. Anyway. NTSC VCD is superiour compared to PAL VCD. But NTSC VHS seems to be inferiour compared to PAL VHS. No personal experience about this, except home videos shot in NTSC (from various shows) seem catastrophic compared to anything I have seen here in Europe. There is difference in tape speed and in modulation - that I meant by different format.

There is IMHO no big difference between PAL VCD and NTSC VCD in terms of visual quality. Mind you, many MPEG encoders (TMPGEnc and Panasonic) have the default GOP optimised for NTSC rather than PAL (even when you choose the PAL template). This makes a difference!

Lack of ECC isn't a big issue -- similar to CD-DA (audio CDs).

Anyway, making identical copies is impossible. And as (S)VCD is encoded, it is more vulnerable.

Well, not really impossible. I've done it many times. VCDs still have error protection, just not the added layer of ECC as per CD-ROMs. As long as there are no unrecoverable errors on the disc (if you treat your discs kindly and use good quality media, there shouldn't be any), you can make identical copies. If there are unrecoverable errors, you can still copy them (with the errors) and it is still usually okay (perhaps a blemish or two).

Regards.

[vcdfreak]

If you believe what I say, this is how I make my Camcorder shots look great in VCD format. It's a trick I use. Use it at your own risk.


Capture with Firewire. If your camcorder don't support iLink(firewire), use a good Analog to Digital Video Converter such as the Canopus ADVC series.

If no editing is required, run directly to TMPGEnd.

If editing is required, export to AVI format or frameserve it (save time + disk space).

Use the Noise Reduction Filter (Max out the 3 parameters after double click on the filter item, I forgot the names).

Do some Simple Color Correction, double click it and adjust the Gamma so that it look brighter.


Just a trick I use. Use at your own risk!!! And the noise reduction filter will 2x or 3x your conversion time. Please take note.


Let me know if you like this.

[Riker64]

The Ripper:

What would I set my capture settings to (all settings) to capture XVCD. My DVD set top manual doesn't say it will NOT play these. I would like to try.

-Tom

[Riker64]

VCD Freak:

I am capturing an Analog source via RCA Composite cables. Don't think it will work.

-Tom

[G-man]

I believe what VCD Freak means is to use passthru feature of DV-cam to connect RCA out into DV-cam and firewire out and into the PC.

[snowmoon]

Personal belief for overall subjective quality..

-Home made VHS - from decent source
-Home made VCD - from decent source
-Bad broadcast
-Commercial VHS/Commercial VCD
-Home made CVD - from good source
-Home made SVCD - from good source
-Good satelite
-Good broadcast
-Home made DVD avg bitrate > 4mbps - from excellent source
-Commercial DVD

Use the Noise Reduction Filter (Max out the 3 parameters after double click on the filter item, I forgot the names).

This will result in ghosting of images. NR must be used with caution. I am preparing a user guide for good NR though VDub. You do not need to capture in firewire to get the best output. You do need to capture full frame full resolution 720x480/576 @ full frame rate so you have enough data to work with.

Another thing that many people forget about is calibrating your TV. This is important. Without your TV set up properly you can be agrivating any problems that your digital media may have.

[baker]

AHAHAHAHA

Vcd is way better than vhs quailty, I am sick of this shit cropping up.

No matter what your source the fact that you digital fiters at your disposel means it will Look better than vhs.!!!

I challenge anyone to show me a standard vhs that looks better than a vcd!!!

A good vcd looks like a svhs!!!

Baker

[snowmoon]

Poor action reproduction, and other items make VCD and VHS have diffrent quality, I don't think a home made VCD can top a commercial VHS... sorry it's my opinion and I have been doing this for a long time.

[baker]

home made VCD can top a commercial VHS

Theres only one thing vhs has going for it, noise.

If you get a vcd and tune it badly into your tele then it wil defenitly look better than a vhs.

My best ever vcd was dud e wheres my car, it look fantastic!!!

Baker

[broderp]

Can someone tell me the "resolution" of VHS? Is it comparable to 480x480 or less? (DVD=780x480, right?)

Cable TV resolution or NTSC is only 460x360/480, what does this equate to in terms of MPEG VIDEO BITS per second?

Reason being, why copy to a medium or format if the max resolution of the original content is less than what is cabable of the new copy.

I.E. If I record a TV show on VHS tape, and the resolution is only say 300x300, then would gain nothing (but wasted money on a DVD) by burning it to DVD rather than VCD? Why make a disc at 6000-8000 bits per second if the original source (VHS) only equates to say 4000BPS?

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across, but maybe someone here could help.

What settings for VCD, SVCD or DVD would be best to create a 1:1 copy with no loss from say DVD, BROADCAST TV, and VHS? I'm picturing a chart, but don't have the numbers to fill it in.