TMPGenc template question

[darkobserver]

In some guides on this site it is said, that one should choose a template (NTSC or PAL) according to the framerate of the source file.

Isn't that wrong? Shouldn't one rather look at what the target decoder (DVD player, TV set) will use? TMPGenc will convert the source material to whatever I want anyway.

I think this is an error in these particular guides. A couple of other guides have it right, they choose the template based on the capabilities of the target system.

The settings for the source under the "Advanced" tab should be correct, of course, but the "video" tab is what is set by the template?!

Agreement, disagreement?

[man_friday]

If the target system is capable of playing either format the point becomes moot. I live in an NTSC (Not The Same as Color) enviromnet, some AVIs as reported by VDUB are 25fps some are 23.9... I encode the 25fps AVI to PAL and 23.9 as NTSC. I play back via an APEX 1200 thru a SONY Trinitron tube, everything works fine.

[darkobserver]

Sorry, but you've missed my point:

I wanted to notify people of errors in the guides here. But maybe I'll write directly to the moderators.

For people who can't display both norms like you and I, it's a big difference, if the choice of template should be based on the source or the target. They could end up encoding a PAL source in PAL and get a funny image on their NTSC TV -or vice versa.

[ya_jai]

Yes there are some player that cannot play other format. That why there is a framerate conversation giude. Look here http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/78178.php.

And in the guides which say load template to match source file becuz if convert or encode crossing format might not get a best result and too much trouble to go through.

[snowmoon]

Personally I say choose the template that is closest to the SOURCE and compatible with your TARGER DVD player. The further from your source you go the more likley that you will distroy the picture quality.

PAL to and from NTSC are basicly freebies with the tools availible today since there is no video quality loss and a very small loss of audio quality ( assuming you are doing a true framerate conversion ).

[darkobserver]

Sorry guys, but I think you have the wrong concept of what a TMPGenc template really is. It's just the settings one has done saved to a file.

Since you can change everything anyway it's totally wrong to say things like "The further from your source you go the more likley that you will distroy the picture quality" That's not true, if you know what you're doing.

Read the TMPGenc help and you will see that you should choose the template based on the target and not the source.

Hell, I'm not going to mention this anymore, since no one seems to understand the point.

[darkobserver]

And Ya-jai: You should look again at the link you posted. It's for converting NTSC-film material with this weird 23.something fps to 25 fps PAL. As he says in it: If you have NTSC 29.97 or something else, it's not the solution and it's not what the background of this discussion was!

[dcapp1]

To dark observer: You are wrong son, I have done many movies and if the source is 23.97 then you should try and encode it as close to the source framerate as possible because the movie will in fact look worse than the original!

[banjazzer]

In some guides on this site it is said, that one should choose a template (NTSC or PAL) according to the framerate of the source file.

Isn't that wrong?

No. However you encode it is important that the input framerate matches the output. Otherwise you will end up losing or duplicating frames in the encoded file. This will result in a jerky effect, which will look worse when there is motion, or when the camera pans. Sometimes people don't seem to notice when, for example, encoding NTSC(film) with a PAL template, but the correct way would be to convert the framerate and audio accordingly beforehand (if possible), or to use an NTSC(film) template.

[darkobserver]

Banjazzer: Thank you for the most concise and enlighting posting in this matter so far! For the first time I can see the sense behind someone founding his decision on the source material.

And to dcapp: Ludicrous posting. I guess I'm old enough to be your father twice, so watch out who you're calling "son". And learn to read, first. You objected to an assertion I didn't even make. *sigh*

[snowmoon]

darkobserver:

I'll try and explain this one more time with examples. When you change the frame rate you will distroy subtle movement and possibly introduce blurring. Resizing low resolution materal up to DVD resolutions does not gain you anything. Resizing 640x480 down to 352x240 will loose quite a bit. Anytime you encode to setting diffrent from your source you will be loosing quality, some adjustments are worse than others. Pal to and from NTSCfilm can be a 99% lossless funtion if done right, so I'm throwing it in as a freebie conversion. Same for good IVTC as no video will be lost in the conversion.

So you can agree that the further from your source setting that you deviate the more of the original will be lost?

We can also agree that output quality is a function of input quality and chosen output format.

By logical induction the closer the setting are to the input the better the output can be. Ie quality of the output is realted to quality of input and input quality is affected by how far we have deviated from input settings.

Then if you have X number of formats that you can go to. Let's say VCD, SVCD, CVD. And of course each of these has 3 subtypes PAL, NTSC, and NTSCFilm.

It then follows that you should choose your template based on the format that 1) Has the fewest deviations from the source AND 2) is compatible with your DVD player.

FYI: You were probably refered to as "son" because your comments don't reflect an extensive background with THIS technology. It has nothing to do with your age.

[banjazzer]

Pal to and from NTSCfilm can be a 99% lossless funtion if done right,

Do you want to elaborate on that? You are either losing or duplicating frames regardless of the encoding algorithm, and this adds to a loss of quality for those who can detect it. If you are, for example, converting between an NTSC(film) and PAL avi, this can be 100% lossless, done right.

[snowmoon]

Yes..

NTSCfilm to PAL avi all you need to do is resample the audio and change the FPS of the .avi. It's that simple. It's all that movies studios do anyways

[banjazzer]

So where did the 0.1% loss come from? 8)

[snowmoon]

resamplining the audio does diminish it's frequence responce.

[banjazzer]

You are making the assumption you need to resample. some avi are alread 44.1kHz.

[snowmoon]

When changing the AVI's from 23.976 to 25 FPS you are increasing the speed. You must alter the audio to match or they will quicley become out of sync.

[banjazzer]

You must alter the audio to match

Yes, but this is not the same as resampling.

[snowmoon]

Then what would you call shortening an audio track by 5%?

Most people call it resampiling.

[darkobserver]

Snowmoon: Thank you for elaborating. I understand now completely, I think. And I may not have an "extensive background" with this technology, but I am willing to learn.

Your 1) could be in direct contradiction to your number 2) when -as I said before- someone has a TV set that can only display his native norm. In that case one HAS to deviate from the source or otherwise he won't see much, have no color whatever. These are the people I was worried about.

But aside from the technical fine print: It's still a confusing matter to newbies and it's still inconsistent in the guides. Also the TMPGenc help file is talking about considering the target when choosing the template. That's all I had wanted to point out but no one wanted to affirm these simple facts, because professionals tend to get lost in the details.

[banjazzer]

Then what would you call shortening an audio track by 5%?

Stretching, shrinking, whatever... Resampling is altering the frequency at which the sound is sampled. For example, 48000Hz to 44100Hz is an example of resampling.

[snowmoon]

I have 1000 samples in one track and I need to convert it to 900 samples...

That's resampling. You are in effect converting 44,1 to 42,293.

[banjazzer]

Your 1) could be in direct contradiction to your number 2) when -as I said before- someone has a TV set that can only display his native norm. In that case one HAS to deviate from the source or otherwise he won't see much, have no color whatever. These are the people I was worried about.

I don't think we have so many options to consider here. If you live in a PAL area, then most players appear to play any format, so you can choose the template to fit the source. If you live in an NTSC area, then you are most likely to come across PAL or NTSC(film). If there are problems (and most times we are talking about people downloading DivX and wanting to convert to (S)VCD), then the best option is to convert the source from PAL to NTSC(film), and use the NTSC(film) template. In all cases the best results are achieved when source framerate matches target framerate. I am not talking here about NTSC/NTSC(film) conversions, because these don't appear to be what cause the most problems.

[banjazzer]

That's resampling. You are in effect converting 44,1 to 42,293.

I can assure you that when I shrink or lengthen audio, I start with a sampling rate of 44.1kHz and end with a sampling rate of 44.1kHz. Although, i may have more or less samples.

[sage72]

Finally it's all cleared up Now I definetivly will go for the ntsc even though I live in a pal-country...and most important of all, I understand why..
Keep it up, darkobserver 8)

[banjazzer]

I think it's easier to move. 8) Or buy the DVD.

[sage72]

maybe so

[ZeroKool]

Ok, darkobserver - i've seen you posting a lot of messages in different forums regarding this source/target template issue and here's my take as requested. I agree that it is confusing to noobs when selecting the correct template for their VCD as it has been advised in different guides to choose template matching source file specs and therefore a lot of people might be just encoding their NTSC DivX to NTSC Mpeg only to find out later that it does not work in their Pal player (for those living in Europe) or vice versa for those in US (Pal DivX to Pal Mpeg and doesnt work in NTSC player). I think these guides were written more from the technical point of view not the practical: technicly we should choose the source template because the encoder's (TMPGEnc) main task is to ENCODE Avi to Mpeg not CONVERT the frame rate although this is included it TMPGEnc features, so i believe the guide was written correctly but without thinking of people like us who download stuff that might be with a DIFFERENT frame rate than our country's standard. And, obviously, end product quality is better if we don't do the conversion by selecting target file template. But for those who download NTSC file while live in Pal country or vice versa - load the TARGET template as i do unless your player plays both Pal and NTSC since the quality will remain almost as if you loaded the source template anyway. 8)

[darkobserver]

Sage: Baldrick has agreed to include the points so well put here last by Zerokool in the relevant guides. We're looking to find a way for me to contribute to that.

Thanks to all of you who helped to clear things up