How good is tmpgenc at mpeg 2 ?

[daznic]

I`ve heard everywhere how good tmpgenc is at mpeg 1 - especially with kvcd templates, and i agree it is superb, but what about mpeg 2 ?
I`ve recently been encoding a large huffy captured file( 640x480 from vdub sync 1.5 hrs , 38 gb)
to mpeg 2 to burn on a dvdr as dvd format.
I`ve tried the conversion with mgi vid wave 5 - smooth but a bit pixely.
Ulead DVD studio - Better but thinks the file is only 5 minutes long & stops ! even with my NTFS drive on win XP !, and finally frameserved from v.dub to LSX mpeg encoder, then re-sized & authored in MGI Vid wave 5.
The last way is definately the best - viewed close up the resolution is much cleaner and the motion is very smooth.
So back to my question - I thought TMpgenc was supposed to be the best ? I`ve tried all the standard dvd templates & KDVD but the quality just dosen`t match my other methods !
Anyone know a better method, my way is a bit long winded !!
If ulead worked ok this would be great - anyone know why it thinks the file is only 5 minutes long ?
cheers !!
Sorry for all the questions , but it`s my wedding video i`m doing from VHS so is quite important to me !!
Cheers !

Tmpeg can produce excellent encodes with Mpeg-2, comparable to any other encoder, but it always depends on the settings you use. This site + Doom9.org have some very good guides on encoding with Tmpgenc.

When I first started encoding video I was also using Ulead products..video studio, media studio(which are great for editing) but for the final encode Tmpgenc leaves them for dead.

[Kevin Henry]

CCE is faster and gives better quality.

But it's expensive, and the demo has a great big bloody logo in the middle of the screen.

[bani]

i'm happy with ligos standalone encoder. got it on special for $99. i only use tmpgenc to mux/demux now.

lsx does quite excellent job on interlaced material where tmpgenc falls on its face.

[energy80s]

TMPGenc is very good at MPEG2, but it really depends on your source material. DVD and Betacam will always produced better encodes than analogue captures or downloaded conversions.

[bani]

tmpgenc does poorly with interlaced material, its interlaced encoder is not very sophisticated at all. it does a great job with progressive though.

[daznic]

Thanks for all your comments, i agree tmpgenc does not seem to handle interlaced movies very well at all, whether captured through my ATI card with v.dub or even worse from my JVC DV cam. But i don`t want to de-interlace as the movies will end up on dvdr & be as close to the original as possible.
I`ll try some of the other encoders but for now i`m getting quite good results in Ulead video studio.
Cheers

[banjazzer]

I`ve heard everywhere how good tmpgenc is at mpeg 1 - especially with kvcd templates, and i agree it is superb, but what about mpeg 2 ?

Why not try using the source range setting and encode a sample with the following settings to compare to what you normally get. I've also found it fine with interlaced material, provided you adjust the settings accordingly, and get the field order right. 8)

Standard SVCD template. CQ mode, min bitrate=1000 (enable padding ticked) max bitrate=2520, Quality set between 75 and 85, Motion search precision=High quality.

I think you will be surprised at the quality. Now you can also do the same sort of thing with the DVD template. I haven't tried this personally because I don't have a DVD writer. Of course, you would have to adjust min and max bitrates accordingly.

[bani]

I think you will be surprised at the quality.

yep, i was suprised at how bad the quality was.

for interlaced material, stay the hell away from tmpgenc. the builtin encoder in dvd workshop or standalone ligos lsxmpeg does a much better job.

only use tmpgenc for progressive material. for that it does a really fine job. but if you want to spend $99 on a really fine encoder, get ligos lsxmpeg standalone. it's really fast and does 100,000x better on interlaced material than tmpgenc.

i only use tmpgenc these days to mulitplex in ac3 audio from besweet with my mp2's for burning to dvd-r.

[banjazzer]

yep, i was suprised at how bad the quality was.

Well, you can only judge by what you see, and some may need glasses more than others. 8)

All I can say is that I am very happy with what I encode. And that also there are a lot of fools around.

[BJ_M]

i posted a lot of samples here all from a interlaced source and i can say the results from TMPGEnc were excellent .. but it often gets the field order wrong if you let it try to figure it out its self .. (DV is always bottom first if transfered through firewire).

[daznic]

Thanks again for your replies,
Don`t forget my end result is for DVD not SVCD - Full DVD resolution 720x576.PAL
The quality issue is about motion artifacts/fuzziness & general poor quality especially on fast motion scenes. ok it`s noy VERY bad, but i want it to compare to the original DV file as closely as possible. This is especially apparent when using my DV cam on panning shots. The sharpness of the picture in low motion scenes is very good, also with ripped dvd`s it gives me the best quality. Ok everybody has different eyes & defines the word `quality` differently, also different PC setups, dvd players etc. I`ve tried lots of different settings, bitrates etc in tmpgenc & different versions of tmpgenc, frameserved & de-interlaced from v.dub,etc,etc.. even from a different operating system ( I dual boot win xp & mill.) It may be very good for particular uses but for my use i`m afraid the other programs give me much better results.
Cheers !

[bani]

if you want best quality for interlaced video, as i said stay away from tmpgenc unless you have VERY bad eyes or unless your standards are VERY low.

[daznic]

Cheers Bani, i appreciate your help. discussion now over i think !!

[vhelp]

evening daznic and others.

Actually, you don't need to stay away from Interlace. Quite the
opposite really. The trick is to set TMPG like this, and when you
couple the DVD bitrate setting for DVD specs, which is approx.
5000 and 8000, should really shouldn't see any blocks:
FIG A:
------------
* transfer DV via firewire to HD
* load into TMPG (is quickest for encoding, etc)
* Video/Size: "720x480"
* Video/Aspect ratio: "4:3 display"
* Video/Frame rate: 29.970 (don't change to anything else)**
* Video/VBV buffer: "224" (there's a bug, and if you set to 112, it will actually
be read as 56. So, set to "224", THEN, it will read as 112 (for DVD, I think)
* Video/Encode mode: "Interlace"
* Advanced/Video source type: "Interlace"
* Advanced/FieldOrder: "Bottom field first (field B)"

As for the rest of TMPG settings, experiment and play around till you
feel your've exhausted yourself, and then finally, settle around a
process that works for you, and finally, SAVE as your peronal Template!


** PAL, use 25fps, so there is a definnate benefit.
** NTSC uses 29.970fps You cannot do an IVTC on DV footage, because it is not
or has NOT been Telecined (you don't have a Telecine equipement, do you? ...course
not!! ) Telecine is strectly for Cenima equipment like Hollywood stuff, and
fottage is shot at 24fps, THEN, it's Telecined to 29.970 for NTSC TV standards,
hence the Interlace lines you see, ie, DVD is 24fps, w/ a Telecine process to
29.970. When we DVD2AVI, we can shoose to forceFilm it, which revises or IVTC's
the DVD during the RIPping process. These movies were done w/ 24fps shootage,
but your DV cam is factory set or welded to 29.970 period! There's no tricks.
So, in TMPG, keep it at 29.970 for NTSC cameras. Don't think IVTC!! Think NTSC!!
And, you'r quality will be as good as your footage, well, minues your hand-shakes
and other Footage factors., etc.

Well, FIG A should get you going on the right path I think, to as close
to original DV quality as possible (note, I didn't say "DVD quality" he, he... )

Good evening
-vhelp

[bani]

tmpgenc will do interlaced, it just does it really badly.

in interlaced scenes with lots of motion, it mis-interprets the interlacing as high frequency picture detail and mis-assigns blocks, wasting bits and leading to very bad blocking artifacts.

the only way to get tmpgenc to do it "well" is to give it an unreasonably high bitrate, eg 8mbps, where good encoders like cinemacraft and ligos will do nearly perfect interlaced encode with only 3-4mbps.

there is an excellent technical discussion on this tmpgenc flaw on one of the german video sites, including side-by-side screenshots demonstrating the flaw in detail. i'll try to find the url and post it.

bottom line -- if you have to handle interlaced material and you are worried about absolute quality, shell out a few extra bucks and buy a good encoder -- stay away from tmpgenc unless you absolutely have to pinch pennies.

[kayfam]

bani,
I know everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but your way off on TMPGEnc as I think many here would agree. I suggest you re-evaluate your encoding process when using TMPGEnc as I'm sure your doing something wrong. I'll admit you have to play around a bit with the settings, but once you hit the sweet spot it does an excellent job in my opinion. As for the comparisons against CCE and the Ligos encoders it's purely subjective and has been the subject of great debate in these forums for quite some time. Myself I think the Ligos encoder sucks and as far as CCE is concerned there is no arguing with its MPEG-2 quality, but for MPEG-1 it leaves much to be desired and lets not even mention price. Of course all of this is just my opinion and in the end it's up to how much money you want to spend, but for me TMPGEnc is still the best bang for the buck.

[kwag]

@daznic,

If you want excelent MPEG-1 results with TMPEG, and you must deinterlace, use an AviSynth script to deinterlace your source. You'll get MPEG-1 quality far above Ligos or CCE. Let AviSynth do the work. Just try the bob() function on a .avs script.

-kwag

[bani]

@daznic,

If you want excelent MPEG-1 results with TMPEG, and you must deinterlace, use an AviSynth script to deinterlace your source. You'll get MPEG-1 quality far above Ligos or CCE. Let AviSynth do the work. Just try the bob() function on a .avs script.

-kwag

he specifically stated he wanted to make interlaced mpeg2 from DV source material, not mpeg1.

[kwag]

@daznic,

If you want excelent MPEG-1 results with TMPEG, and you must deinterlace, use an AviSynth script to deinterlace your source. You'll get MPEG-1 quality far above Ligos or CCE. Let AviSynth do the work. Just try the bob() function on a .avs script.

-kwag

he specifically stated he wanted to make interlaced mpeg2 from DV source material, not mpeg1.

I'm making a point and clarifying the questions and doubts on interlaced MPEG-1 that have been posted here. The point is that what I described above is true.
You use bob() function in AviSynth to take care of deinterlacing, and now the result is excelent. I agree 100% that TMPEG's internal deinterlacer is no match for AviSynth. But when used in conjunction with AviSynth, the result is amazing. As kayfam said above: "Ligos sucks". It's motion estimation is crap, and it's slightly better than Honestech (another crap) encoder. CCE is better. But still no match on MPEG-1 compared to TMPEG.
For MPEG-2 ( SVCD, DVD ), there's no need to deinterlace, so there's no argument here.

-kwag

[banjazzer]

There is a tendency for certain people to believe, if they cannot get something to work properly, that it is not possible to get it to work properly. Consequently, the particular program or technique involved must be rubbish, because there could not conceivably be any other reason for it not working properly. In such situations further discussion becomes futile. 8)

[offline]

bani,

while I'll agree that tmpgenc's internal D-I mod
is not the best, I'm surprised the result drove you into using
Ligos. Could you post your settings for tmpgenc please?
Also have you tried any external filters (convolution etc. ?)
and if so what did you think of them?

[bani]

bani,

while I'll agree that tmpgenc's internal D-I mod
is not the best, I'm surprised the result drove you into using
Ligos. Could you post your settings for tmpgenc please?
Also have you tried any external filters (convolution etc. ?)
and if so what did you think of them?

you don't seem to understand. the source material being encoded is 60fields/sec live video, not some 24fps telecine'd film stuff that can be IVTC'd or deinterlaced. i'm not making mpeg1's or VCD's here. i'm making full rez DVDs.

tmpgenc does fine with progressive material, it is perhaps even the best encoder for that. but throw 60fields/sec at it and it does a very poor job.

i've been using tmpgenc since the early betas. i've used them all -- cce, tmpgenc, lsx, bbmpeg, ulead, etc. and done literally tens of thousands of encodes. to blame it on 'user error' or 'misconfiguration' is rather silly.

please, STOP all this talk about deinterlacing, ivtc, vcd, mpeg1, progressive. we're not dealing with that at all, so its completely and totally irrelevant to what daznic and i are doing.

[daznic]

Hi guys,
wow, what a discussion this has started !
Just to clarify, my original project was from a VHS source captured with huffy & v.dub., Then i went on to say that my main & worse problem is with my DV cam.
I`m working in PAL here, 25fps, i want my end result to be on DVDr at full DVD res - the same as the DV source & also to stay interlaced.
This brought me to the question, is tmpgenc poor at doing this or am i doing something wrong. Anybody out there who is doing the exact same process as me, with the same source type & same desired end result & is fully satisfied with TMpgenc, please tell me your settings so i can decide for myself whether to agree with you or not.
Cheers !

[offline]

bani

ouch.. I was asking nicely what you were doing so
that maybe I could assist. In the light of your reply
you obviously are not open to suggestions as anything
but personal criticism. Sad for you.

Just so you know, I also deal with video (PAL & NTSC)
from CIF to HD res. and find tmpgenc output (with
external filters) to be v.good. While I prefer CCE,
tmpgenc comes in at a good second/third best. Ligos
is a pale 5th, in my opinion.

good luck to you.

[daznic]

Sorry, offline are you replying to me or Bani ?
I`m open to any suggestions from anyone, i`m willing to try anything & appreciate all your comments - Cheers !

[BJ_M]

I just want to point out that there often is a lot of "hidden" artifacts in DV material (it iS a compressed format already) .. and as well the color is compressed 4:1:1

now of course you can get good - even excelent material from DV but you are at the mercy fo your DV codec which MUST decompress the DV material for you to either view it or encode it ..

avid has gone to great lenths over the years on DV codecs and up to now (they have developed thier own now) - they said the canopus DV codec was the best and that many others had poor performance ..

this is only a suggestion but why not (i dont use DV materia myselfl) try different DV codecs ? Bsed on what ive read - it should affect your encoding.

[bani]

Sorry, offline are you replying to me or Bani ?
I`m open to any suggestions from anyone, i`m willing to try anything & appreciate all your comments - Cheers !

daznic, try ligos lsxmpeg, i think you will be satisfied with the result for DV. you will need to adjust the input levels though 'coz ligos isn't expecting the DV 16-235 range its expecting 0-255.

most everyone else who uses tmpgenc on these forums seems to be using it to warez DVDs, which is totally unsuitable for what you're doing.

[banjazzer]

most everyone else who uses tmpgenc on these forums seems to be using it to warez DVDs

Oh dear! We've all been found out by your telepathic power. Or should that be telepathetic?

[kayfam]

bani,
Is it me or are you the only one advocating the use of the Ligos encoder?
I think that says a lot in itself. It seems we have another self appointed critic here who when his answers fail he has to take pot shots at everyone else to prop up his position.