KVCD - a new standart?

[cruiser80]

Gee, everyone's getting so uptight about this.

Is anyone going to answer one of the original questions - "If you have any other tips on how to improve the quality of the output, I will be glad to hear about it."

That may be of more use to most people than the continual bickering over what the word 'format' and 'standard' mean.

[SatStorm]

Everyone floating in this scene for more than a year, knows that the sweet -X- is not a new story.

There was a spanish, very popular, xVCD format once, the well known CVCD. That format based on some China's xVCDs, burned VBR on 99min CD Media, 2 and a half years ago. Someone in Spain gather the infos of that -X- solution, played with the GOP and the bitrates and produce a very good -X- solution, named CVCD. There was a site promoting this CVCD, huge forum, many programs (even modified versions of the well known DVD2SVCD !), there were many warez to download, and the weather was perfect in spain
Well, now the site is closed, the CVCD well forgoten...
That CVCD was very close Kwag's xVCD in terms of quality and compatibility. Both limited but fair. There are cousins in a way. I mention this story for you cybermage26, who asks: "How many of you have created your own website (paying the domain name fees) and managing that site, the templates, and answering questions for people in trouble on the forums?". As you understand "Be there, done that.....".
Kwag is not the first doing this. He is doing somehow the same with VCDSp and the CVCD story, but in a more aggressive way. He re-discovers ideas and -x- stuff many times in the past tested from several of us, and then publish them in his site. I like him for this flame he has inside for the subject. I don't like the way he acts sometimes (or better, the way he express himself), but also I know many people say the same for me, so that is not the point. The point is that you Kwag, are not diplomate and somehow you are not 100% clear when you mention/ spreading your -X- ideas. Newbies confused, advance users with big EGOs pissed off, etc. You see, you come here 18 months ago and they know you. In the matter of fact, they know you in many places. There is also a new word in the dictation based on your nickname: "Kwagologist". That it is not good for some Big EGOs around here. You see, there are people here who want fame, a well known nickname in the internet, a crown for their life. You also want that, less or more. Everyone want it. The difference between them and you, are that you succeed that, while they, didn't. So, now they are your "enemies" and you know what? With your attitude you feed that situtation.
I advise you to start express yourself in a more flexible and clever way, and then all this stupid fights gonna stop.

Just copy sefy's attitube for this subject: He published, discussed even porposed his -X- ideas to many users (advance/newbies), almost 2 years before and he did it in a way noone could blame him for things users/members blame you now.
Just remember, that there was also a time which sefy's SeVCD and SxVCD, was very popular here. SeVCD is almost the same CVCD, while SxVCD it was a "new" idea for the time. SxVCD is probably the only -X- idea based on tricking DVD Standalones, and that makes it much more compatible any other -X- format. It is also much more compatible any Xvcd solution from you Kwag.
Now both of those "formats" are also forgotten... (I still use a tweek of SxVCD my self, I call it D4SVCD and holds up to 130min per CD, no blocks etc. Only for watching from PC , my standalone is not capable to play less than 600kb/s average bitrate !)

What is the difference? Noone blamed Sefy ever for his -X- ideas (except once, someone blame him that he "stole" the CVCD idea for his own SeVCD, but even that was true (it wasn't), still SxVCD was his own idea), while anyone is against you . You are the black sheep for the same thing.... Help yourself Kwag. Change attitude.... You don't deserve accepting all this flames. Noone diserve this! You 're a true enthusiast of the scene who can help much more others a much better way.

Why this post and this analisys? Well, in a way I had to handle a simular situation myself after my CVD article, so I now fully understand Sefy and Kwag in a way.
CVD is a format. A true one, not an -X- like yours. I didn't discover it, I wasn't the one who first test it. I was simply the first one who gather all the infos, tested them one by one, and then publish them in a very popular site, with an good article and in a justified way. 4 months ago, only a small minority known about it. Now, everyone knows CVD: they like it, they hate it, it doesn't matter. There is even a link in VCDhelp for it. (left in the top)... Wanted or not for somepeople outhere, there is a "SatStorm" near it, enough to gather flames...
So what happend? In the last months, I accussed for misleading "somehow" users, for being a "Kwagologist", that I spread lies, etc. Big Egos appear, because they didn't though doing that simply thing I did first, even if they have the knowledge doing it themselfs, even better. So now, I was the name of the day, and they still don't. Since then, I had tons of emails, others name me "GOD of the encoding scene" and others name me "Motherf_c_er lier". That never ends in the internet...
I know that when I shall publish some templates and some new articles I prepare, I'll be again all this. Well, that's life: When Egos appears in anything, you became stupid (my girldfriend teached me this...). So, you have to close all the holes for those egos outhere. You can do that only by preventing flames, backdoors, etc.

You don't do this Kwag. A friendly advice: Start doing it.
Or if you like being the "black sheep", the target for any blame in the scene, what to say... You are doing a good job!

[PigOnWing]

I'll try to make it short, which is very uncharacteristic of me.

SatStorm - there's an enormous amount of difference between CVD, SeVCD and KVCD.

CVD is a standard. It was a little-known standard, but it's a set standard. Moreover, it's a standard that SuperVCD players are also required to adhere to.

You never claimed you invented this. You never claimed you discovered the wheel. You gathered facts, then presented them 'as is'. Those facts belonged to an existing standard, you explained it clearly so, and gave reasons what are the advantages of that, particular, already set standard.

SeVCD is an XVCD. But Sefy, if my memory serves me right, always claimed it to be an XVCD. It was a suggested MPG encoding scheme / TMPGEnc template for an XVCD, and Sefy, again, if my memory serves me right, made it clear that as an XVCD, it may or may not play in people's standalone, and while it may produce better quality per se it is by far anything than a 'standard'.

Kwag - indeed, in his attitude, and expressed 'goals' - is marketing KVCD as a standard - equivalent to (and better then) VCD standard.

That is misleading. This is all the difference between Kwag/CVCD and you/Sefi. Kwag/CVCD are misleading, you/Sefi are not and have not.

As stated by me, earlier - if you want to produce non-VCD-standard streams, which produce better output than VCD-standard streams - then great. Many have done it before, many will do it afterwards, you're most welcome to hop on the wagon or claim your own piece of share for it. If it works for people with certain models - wonderful, by all means use it for your own personal purposes.

But for heaven's name, don't call it a 'standard' and mislead people to think they're making VCDs. They're not. And next thing it'll be on VCDs people produce for toher people - and no, Kwag, that won't promote your settings, it will only get more people angry when they can't play those CDs, which someone else created, relying on the 'super-duper-extra-quality I get from using KVCD templates'.

I have recently purchased an unofficial CD from a (bootleg) label. The CD was advertised as a VCD. it's coded as VBR ~1200Kbps and 192kbps audio. Thank god my player can cope with this.

This is not better. This is incompatible with many drives who bear the VCD logo. Incompatible can not be better.

-- Lengthy Piggie

P.S.
To cruiser80 - we cannot "have any other tips" adding to tips which are off-spec, and might be - and are - incompatible to many, many devices. We first have to set straight the notion, that all the already-gained tips from KVCD are 'quality enhancements' and nothing more - they're not. They're quality enhancement on one side - and may, and will, and do cause incompatibility issues on the other site.

Is the question how to make better-looking S/VCDs or how to make better-looking MPEG files? These terms are not interchangeable.

[PigOnWing]

Oh, and, um, cybermage?

How many of you have created your own website (paying the domain name fees) and managing that site, the templates, and answering questions for people in trouble on the forums?

Um, dunno how to tell you this, but, uh, er, um... Bladrick did.
And with many, many people gathering after he started it, who helped and help him. And write many, many guides and tutorials. Both in-spec and out-spec, but clearly stating so when they are.

For a few years now.

Quite a community of bragging idiots we've become, eh?

-- Idiot Piggie

P.S.
And let as not forget that self-bragging hvr, who wrote VCDImager, or that idiot delphi.stuff, who wrote VCDEasy, or that slap-in-the-face deservee vitalis, who's Guides and Demo VCD are of course of no value at all. All they had in their mind is just bragging and pomposing, and that's why they all chose to name their web site after themselves, for example, and publicly declare that their software and settings are the best thing ever and nothing tops it off.

Ah, but I'm bragging again. Probably after some more self-fame.

[SatStorm]

[DJRumpy]

A few thoughts on the subject...

One would think that someone with enough interest to visit a forum, would have at least enough curiousity to change a few settings on their own. Why have it done for you when you can discover how it works on your own?

If the author of TMPGenc was interested, he could probably sue Kwag for intelectual copyright infringement, since TMPGenc is pay for play now.

He's taken a blue box, painted it red, and declared it the greatest thing since sliced bread.

The PC-Challenged are all giddy that they've made a coaster on 90% of the standalones out there. I can do the same with a screwdriver on the shiny side.

I find the discussions in this group interesting reading. If a newbie is only interested in finding a quick click and go solution, then he, or she is probably not going to contribute here in any way. I say more power to ya. The URL's somewhere above. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

One might ask Kwag, why he's here, if his site is the 'end all' of solutions? Trolling for cash, and sheep. One should never beg. It's unattractive.

I for one find all of this drivel pointless. My DVD burner cares not a wink for vcd, svcd, cvd, or x-anything.

Cheers

[Piper]

DJRumpy wrote: "He's taken a blue box, painted it red, and declared it the greatest thing since sliced bread."

I couldn't agree more. I would encourage Kwag to own up to this. An XVCD is an XVCD is an XVCD folks!

I've been catching up on this thread this morning, and while it's been fun reading, it has also reminded me why I stopped coming as often as I used to do.

The misinformation being spread around in this thread and others is annoying at best. I hope I can help to change this around by offering some (hopefully) solid advice and I'd encourage those who are new to these forums to do the following.

1) Don't get too excited about some new format that's going to change the world. It won't. There's no magic template that will solve all your problems.

2) Read up on official VCD standards and come to understand their limitations and why alternatives like XVCD's exist.

3) Learn about the costs involved with creating non standard discs. What's your objective? If the desire to deviate from the VCD standard is so strong, why aren't you using DivX?

4) If you're confused by all the various claims being heralded in the forums, then look for the moderators posts. They are FAR less likely to distribute misinformation. Let them be your guide - that's what they're here for.

5) Experiment Experiment Experiment! Ultimately the quality you achieve from your encodes is all subjective. If you find your own template tweaks work best for you and you've decided that's the route you want to go then use them! You're doing what everyone else in these forums has also done.

As for Kwag....<sigh>

[SatStorm]

@Piper: misinformation is everywhere, it is not only in this forum.
The great thing here, is that when someone start post something just to mislead others or because himself is misinformed, there are always some advance users to answer him straight and save the day!. So, missiformation don't spread from this forum.
In general, in a so very popular forum like VCDhelp's, there are no room for acts of fame by anyone, like it happens on other forums! Soon or later, the true rise for anything.
So, If you don't like it here, it is because this forum is not your type, or you found something in the Net, which for your personality is better. Doom's forum for example.
Also, you say :"If you're confused by all the various claims being heralded in the forums, then look for the moderators posts". I don't angree also with this: There are many - many good and advange members here, which are not moderators or anything. Also, the moderators here are simply users in other forums.

I believe the best advice should be something like this for the newbies: Read the guides and more than one opinion for any subject. Use the "search" fuction when you want to learn, ask anything and test a lot yourself if you wish to go beyond standards. But first, read!

[therick]

Ok, ok, I am not here to join in on the flame of Kwag- he works hard- I can't say I agree with him on things, but what are you gonna do I read this long post and thought of something that was kind of said- but not really illustrated completely in the argument.

To second what Piper said: I agree that the best advice to newbies is to get a CD-RW and have at it.

"The full screen sample fits 45 minutes on one CD-R, and the Wide Screen sample fits 60+ minutes on one CD-R."

Again, to all newbies...I (and it seems from this post, others) have been getting the above results without Kwag's templates for some time. Try it both ways-standard and non-standard and see for yourself if the difference matters.

[vitualis]

I believe it is clear.

kwag's templates are just that -- templates. They make a particular type of XVCD or XSVCD (read the "What Is" section if you don't know what these are).

There is a trade off between the particular purpose of the X/S/VCD (quality, playtime, etc.) vs. the compatibility of the disc (since it is non-compliant). kwag's own site has a compatibility index with his various templates.

Whether or not you believe that the templates live up to their claim is a subjective matter.

As for the original poster, it is fine to go into non-compliant territory as long as you understand that the disc will be less compatible. What you can or cannot do then will be determined by your player.

I think it has been clearly established (and agreed by kwag himself) that "KVCD" (or his other templates) is not a standard (e.g., like VCD, SVCD, CVD or DVD). You can probably call it a "format" if you so wish but it is not a format in the sense of a standard.

Regards.

[Sefy]

People, i'm surprised at you all, this is one long ridicules argument about a
standard and format, and the nice use of names, as if my own Templates are
a standard (i wish!) , kwag himself already agreed he has not made a newer
standard, like Vitualis said, that has to be accepted worldwide first by the
makers of the VCD/SVCD/DVD standards first

Now come on, give it a rest, read what you are arguing and slandering each
other about :P

Quality is in the eye of the beholder, vitualis loves SVCD, me for example, I
am propably blind, cause I see absolutly no difference is SVCD to VCD on
my 29" TV, so it's a waste of time and effort and CDR's for me, but there are
those who say it's great, good for them, each to his own!

End of Point: It's all Optimized Templates, so will like, some won't, that's it!

[vitualis]

I couldn't agree with you more Sefy...

I would be interesting for kwag and and KVCD exponents to revisit this thread actually. It is actually very interesting in the context of a recent thread on pretty much the same thing.

Except that now kwag is trying to claim that KVCD is a standard and furthermore is not a template...

Also interestingly frozen in this thread is why some of us (rightly or wrongly) don't take those templates seriously. For a time, super long GOP lengths seemed the order of the day. Doesn't appear to be the case anymore...

Regards.

[Dodzzz]

KVCD is only kwag's q.matrix, gop length, and bitrate settings for encoding movies to MPEG with TMPGEnc.

video standards are not defined just by those settings, simply having a 352x288x25 mpeg-1 with 44.1k mpeg1layer2 audio doesn't mean that I have a PAL VCD format file
it's just a PAL VCD-compliant mpeg file that can be compiled using VCD authoring program to make a VCD.

general rules:
vcd authoring programs create vcds
svcd authoring programs create svcds
dvd authoring programs create dvds
etc etc..

[mrj03]

And yes I have seen you samples and was not impressed.

Maybe there are new people in this site, which haven't seen any samples, and don't know about KVCD.
So here are a couple links, to refresh your memory, about samples that don't impress you.

The full screen sample fits 45 minutes on one CD-R, and the Wide Screen sample fits 60+ minutes on one CD-R.

Full Screen: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/farscape-kvcdx3-mpeg1.mpg
Wide Screen: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-kvcdx3-mpeg1.mpg

Preview on WinDVD, PowerDVD, or burn to CD-R. DO NOT preview in WMP.

Now, if you call that bad quality, something is way wrong with you

-kwag

These 2 links NEVER WORK....
Full Screen: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/farscape-kvcdx3-mpeg1.mpg
Wide Screen: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-kvcdx3-mpeg1.mpg

I've tried them MANY Times.... Post the links that WORK PLEASE.....

You just get THESE messages EVERYTIME...

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /kwag/farscape-kvcdx3-mpeg1.mpg on this server.

Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache/2.0.40 Server at kwag.shidima.com Port 80

[kwag]

Except that now kwag is trying to claim that KVCD is a standard

Could you provide a link to that statement? I think you're the one trying to confuse people all over the forums with your "incorrect" statements. Not me.
Read again what's posted on KVCD's main page:
What is KVCD?
KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix.
It doesn't say anything about being a standard. It clearly states it's modifications to MPEG-1 and MPEG-2. A format, as defined in the dictionary, technically yes. A standard?, no, it's not.

-kwag

[kwag]

@mrj03,

Sorry about the links. The site where those samples were posted is dead. Small samples are scattered around the forum areas.

-kwag

[DJRumpy]

Ugh..where did they dig this old thread up.

What is KVCD?
KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix.

You would think, that after all this time, you would have gotten your keyboard fixed. I believe that's an X instead of a K. Perhaps you would feel better if you changed the name to Kwag's XVCD TMPGenc Template? That way, you would remember that all of your hard work, was done with a few button clicks, in a software package, designed by someone else, using a toolset, designed by someone else, to change a setting, designed by someone else, to produce an MPEG, designed by someone else. At least your name would be in front of the TMPGenc part.

Am I getting through here? (*thump*) (*thump*). Is this thing on?

I don't think it's in debate (at least I'm fairly certain it's not), that KWAG can produce some good results with his TMPGenc templates. The flavor for this thread has to do more with Kwag strokin himself heavily, both above and below. I think if this thread accomplished one thing, it was to quite down the "Visit KWAG" posts that were like a virus in this forum for a while. It made people stop and think, possibly experiment, and it was a useful distraction from time to time when we were bored.

[mrj03]

@mrj03,

Sorry about the links. The site where those samples were posted is dead. Small samples are scattered around the forum areas.

-kwag

As much as you post about your templates I think you should have a DEDICATED page on YOUR site just for the SAMPLES. There's probly ALOT of people like myself that read your post's and are VERY curious to burn all these SAMPLES on a VCD and view them on our DVD's so we can see for ourselves the QUALITY...... Just an IDEA....

TAKE CARE.....

[kwag]

Ugh..where did they dig this old thread up.

What is KVCD?
KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix.

You would think, that after all this time, you would have gotten your keyboard fixed. I believe that's an X instead of a K. Perhaps you would feel better if you changed the name to Kwag's XVCD TMPGenc Template? That way, you would remember that all of your hard work, was done with a few button clicks, in a software package, designed by someone else, using a toolset, designed by someone else, to change a setting, designed by someone else, to produce an MPEG, designed by someone else. At least your name would be in front of the TMPGenc part.

Am I getting through here? (*thump*) (*thump*). Is this thing on?

I don't think it's in debate (at least I'm fairly certain it's not), that KWAG can produce some good results with his TMPGenc templates. The flavor for this thread has to do more with Kwag strokin himself heavily, both above and below. I think if this thread accomplished one thing, it was to quite down the "Visit KWAG" posts that were like a virus in this forum for a while. It made people stop and think, possibly experiment, and it was a useful distraction from time to time when we were bored.

This one's for you too DJRumpy:

(I can see I'm going to have fun pasting this from now on 8).)

Quoting the book Video Demystified, by author Keith Jack, page 519:

MPEG-1 is an ISO standard (ISO/IEC 11172), and consists of six parts:
System ISO/IEC 11172-1
Video ISO/IEC/11172-2
Audio ISO/IEC 111172-3
Low bit rate audio ISO/IEC 13818-2
Conformance testing ISO/IEC/ 11172-4
Simulation software ISO/IEC 11172-5

"The compression algorithms are up to the individual manufacturers (KVCD?), allowing a propietary advantage to be obtained within the scope of an international standard"

And that of course includes GOP, matrices, different encoders, etc., which directly or indirectly create the final target MPEG file.

So perhaps you should read a little bit more on definitions, before writing a lot of meaningless characters.

Have a nice day
-kwag

[kwag]

There's probly ALOT of people like myself that read your post's and are VERY curious to burn all these SAMPLES on a VCD and view them on our DVD's so we can see for ourselves the QUALITY...... Just an IDEA....

TAKE CARE.....

We will, as soon as we have some time to get organized. There's just too much development going on right now. Filters, scripts, automated programs (acp, KVCDPredictor), different encoding modes being evaluated, new BETA matrices, etc.

-kwag

[Dodzzz]

Just like XVCD is called a format, XSVCD is another called format, and they are variations of their standard defined core ( VCD, SVCD ), so is KVCD

No it's not, XVCD and XSVCD is not a format, and they're not variations either. It's simply a slang of (S)VCD that contains non-(S)VCD-standard mpeg files. in other words, it's a bad/faulty (S)VCD. And so is KVCD.

As long as you use (S)VCD authoring program to burn your KVCD optimized mpeg files in, you're making a (S)VCD (DUH!) and if your mpeg files were not-(S)VCD-compliant, then you're making a bad/faulty (S)VCD that all of us slang it as X(S)VCD. :P 8)

[Saito]

There was a spanish, very popular, xVCD format once, the well known CVCD.

hey SatStorm, I think this is the site you were talking about

http://www.vcdsp.com/

[vitualis]

Okay, kwag.

Here is some of your hyperbole that I believe most reasonable people will take for crap...

Where you claim that your KVCD template could create video superior to the quality of a 2 disc DivX disc (for presumably same bitrate): http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405888#405888

Where you try to argue how KVCD somehow transcends a template (i.e., collection of MPEG settings): http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405429#405429

KVCD started as a method and modifications on MPEG-1, so it applies to any encoder that can "Encode" with special modifications as non standard Q Matrix, Non- standard GOP structures, etc. That is KVCD, which is far from a template. Anyone who still thinks KVCD is a "Template", well, LOLROTF

I've argued against this many times. Despite your delusion, KVCD is not a modification of MPEG-1. IT IS MPEG-1 (or MPEG-2 depend your your template). You are using modifications of general encoding settings. You are still encoding standard MPEG.

Here is where you suddenly ignored your own compatibility chart and decided to drop the line that "KVCD" plays on 99% of players: http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=406651#406651

You've posted the following before and I debunked you once before and I am going to do so again:

"The compression algorithms are up to the individual manufacturers (KVCD?), allowing a propietary advantage to be obtained within the scope of an international standard"

That's right. But what is the end result? The end result is MPEG. It is not "KVCD". It may be MPEG with KVCD encoding settings but don't pretend you are making anything else.

You keep on trying to believe that everyone but you don't have an understanding of what MPEG is. Most of it understand it perfectly well. YOU are trying to pervert the concept with liberal interpretative semantics. If you were some lone soldier I wouldn't care. However, you enjoy a certain degree of noteriety and I am frankly rather tired of instructing beginners of what your "KVCD"s actually are.

Need I remind you that that whole other thread from which I am quoting from is from a beginner who was asking "why his KVCD doesn't play on his player". He had no concept that it was an XVCD of any sort and that is just plain wrong.

I'm very sorry kwag, but the only person is is incorrect here is often YOU. I don't know if you are trying to do it deliberately or are just plain deluded sometimes, but many of your posts are misleading or sometimes completely bogus.

I don't care to argue anymore with your liberal and self-serving interpretation of terms. In the future, if I see that a beginner here is being misled are confused on what a "KVCD" is, I will tell it like it is and lock the thread.

Regards.