Block noise... revisited.

[cradix]

Okay, guys (and gals?). I've searched this forum for "block noise" trying to figure out how to remove it. All I found was a suggestion to check the "soften block noise" option in TMPGEnc.

Checking this option, for me at least, does not produce much/any difference when converting my 480x480 AVI to MPEG2 for SVCD purposes. When playing on my TV, I still see lots of "static" / "block noise" / "mosquito noise" or whatever it's called.

Still images look great. The block noise only gets bad when the characters are moving across the screen (as you can imagine, happens quite often!)

There's gotta be a way of getting rid of this stuff! Is there some sort of filter I need? Is it my settings!? Am I just going to have to live with it?

I've used the standard SVCD template in TMPGEnc as well as messed with every single setting available with Unlocked profile (CBR vs. VBR, Highest Quality, etc.)

I'm at a loss. Please help. --Matt

[Anonymous65]

Do like the real broadcast stations do, capture and store mpeg video at 720x480 at 8Mb/sec CBR. It will look as good as anything else that is mpeg encoded. It's a common fact that 8Mb/sec is the minimum bit rate for mpeg-2 compressed video.

So, no, you will not be able to remove compression artifacts from a VCD or SVCD, it's technically impossible.

[Poplar]

Could you provide more info on your settings? What's the bitrate you are using? How many passes did you do? If you used a bitrate like 1800 kbps and you complained about block noise...Well, that's what you paid for.

[cradix]

[quote="skittelsen"]It's a common fact that 8Mb/sec is the minimum bit rate for mpeg-2 compressed video.
[quote]

Two things:

1) 8Mb/sec!? But an SVCD will only handle 2.5Mb/sec, right?

2) When my Dish PVR (aka TiVo) records shows, it's beautiful upon playback. Is that because it's recording at 8Mb/sec whereas I'm encoding my SVCD at only 2.5Mb/sec?

-- Matt

[cradix]

Could you provide more info on your settings?

When I load the SVCD profile in TMPGEnc, it locks me in at 2520 max bitrate (can't bump it higher without unlock). I'm also using 2-pass VBR (tried CBR - no difference -- not even in size of file), highest quality motion search precision, standard GOP structure, soften block noise checked (35x35 default setting). Any setting not mentioned can be assumed as the default setting.

Hope this helps you help me. --Matt

[offline]

cradix,

what is your capture codec for your original avi files? Have you
tried another codec or tweaked settings?

[thxkid]

Well I make my own template and unlock and usually use 3000 bitrate min. even on VCD I like to use nothing less than 2520, but make sure you have a DVD player that can play higher than 2520 on VCD and SVCD my Daewoo 5800 and Sampo 631CF will play VCD and SVCD upto 7000 though I have found that I don't need to go any higher than 5000 or 6000 which by the way is the standard on MOST DVD's a few of your Dual layered DVD's will go as high as 8500 and yes the super bit DVD's are around 9000 to 10000. keep in mind your single layered dvd's are just averaging around 3800 to 4800 bitrate. all my DVD players show the bitrate using their on screen display.

[Poplar]

The Sweet Spot of MPEG-2 MP@ML is usually somewhere over 4Mb/s, under which artifacts will become "non-transparent", to use some expert lingo SVCD at 2.5Mb/s, as I found out, can't reach sweet spot in most cases. The only way to make artifacts transparent is to raise bitrates. Push the envelope and pray your DVD player can handle it, if you can't live with some artifacts

In Bitrate We Trust

[cradix]

Push the envelope and pray your DVD player can handle it.

So the way you guys are talking, for a "compliant" SVCD (2520Mb/sec) what I see is what I get?

BTW, I am using HUFFYUV as my capture codec (after snowmoon kindly informed me about it vs. uncompressed which is what I was using).

Question about interlacing (if you don't mind): When I set the "Encode Mode" to Interlace, the output on my TV is almost like I was watching it with a strobe light or something. Any ideas?

Thanks, guys! --Matt

[Poplar]

Mmm..Interlace or deinterlace, another loaded question. I am thinking about writing a guide of some sort on this thing and haven't found time to do it. Maybe someone else is more qualified to do it. Somebody did it for DivX crowd, maybe it's helpful to S/VCD crowd, too. Check it out.....

http://100fps.com/

[Anonymous65]

To restate the answer, you cannot make a VCD or SVCD without any mpeg artifacts. VCD and SVCD is a compromise between file size and quality. It also lowers the full resolution that NTSC or PAL can do to get down to the low bit rates needed for it to be useful to put on a CD-R. If you were to make a VCD and SVCD without compression artifacts (using the argument that 8Mb/sec is the minimum for 720x480 video), the bit rate would have to be at least 5.3Mb/sec for NTSC SVCD and 2Mb/sec for VCD. As you can see, the bit rates for the VCD and SVCD standard is about half of what is needed for artifact free video.

[cradix]

If my DVD player is limited to 2666Mbps for SVCDs, does the same apply to DVDs? Or can a DVD player read DVDs at a much faster rate?

Reason for asking: Don't have a DVD burner (yet), but if I did, could I make DVDs at 8Mbps or whatever so that few artifacts existed?

Keep in mind, I am a newbie, so my question itself may be bogus as other factors besides sheer bitrate are involved. Just understand this and answer accordingly.

-- Matt

[offline]

If my DVD player is limited to 2666Mbps for SVCDs, does the same apply to DVDs? Or can a DVD player read DVDs at a much faster rate?

Most units in DVD standalones can only read a normal cd or cdr at around 16 - 20x. This equates to 2400 - 3000, with an average bitrate of 2496bps video and 224bps audio. DVD with it's minute file structure can be read
faster so the same average DVD players can read DVD's at x6 - x8 giving you a max data stream of around 10,000bps (even though the DVD read speed is quoted as slower, the file structure on a DVD disk is much smaller giving more data as the DVD spins around)

[cradix]

So what you're saying, offline, is YES, if I made my own DVDs (Animaniacs Episodes) I could probably enjoy them without seeing much block noise whereas on an SVCD, I'm doomed?

--Matt

P.S. -- This is a long shot, but is there a chance that maybe some sort of *lower* setting (i.e. smaller frame size, etc) would give me smoother video / less block noise?

[cradix]

I think I just found the answer to my own question in the "SVCD" tab to the left...

What is CVD/CVCD then?
CVD is basicly exact the same as SVCD but with a lower video resolution. Using a lower resolution you get more data for each pixel which means less mpeg artifacts such as blockiness compared to a SVCD with the same bitrate, but you will lose some sharpness.

-- Matt

[offline]

CVD has the same resoluton as DVD d1. You can use this compatability
to make a xSVCD that plays like a CVD on cdr but can be copied
direct to a DVD-r at a later stage.

Depending on the DVD player, you can ramp up the audio to 48Hkz
and run at a CBR of 2496 video, 224 audio. If you then set to encode as
a DVD compliant stream this gives you 1 movie per three CD's which
can be later copied direct to DVD-r with minimal processing.
you can fit up to two to per dvdr disc. Future proof and no macroblocks.

[cradix]

Yup! I am currently reading this article:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/98177.php

WOW! Providing it actually works when I get home and try it, I'm sold on CVD's now. Anybody just getting started and reading this post, go check out the above link!! Very informative.

Thanks for all your help everyone. I'm gonna go see what I can do with CVDs. That seems to be the answer to my "block noise" problems and SVCDs.

-- Matt