VFAPI - Conversion quality from 2nd pc, not matching 1st pc.

[vhelp]

Good evening peoples.

RE: VFAPI - Conversion quality from 2nd pc, not matching 1st pc
...................not sure if it's VFAPI related or not, but was the best place to start.

I am puzzled by this quality issue I am suffering from. Ok, let me explain.
I have 2 pcs that I do various things on. In any case, on my 1ts pc, this is
the pc I've trained most effectively to produce good looking encoding projects
with.
On my 2nd pc, (though I had problems setting up initially) its not producing
the same quality as my 1st pc.

Ok, basically, what I did was:
* encode the same scene on 1st and 2nd pc
* used the same template (settings) in both.
* No filtering for either.
* burn to CD and test play for quality on my AD-1500

Now, when I view both clips (clip-1st and clip-2nd)
* clip-1st comes out looking more colorfull, but on
* clip-2nd, the colors seam just slightly blochy, almost like the encode went
through 5 re-encode of an encode, etc.

Basically, what I did was take the same Folders with all the apps I use for
all my Encoding endeavors and copy them via LAN to my 2nd pc, and in the same
layout/setup/location, bla, bla, bla on my 2nd pc - sort of an Image copy.
I had problems getting the frameserving to work with AVIsynth, and remember
installing a number of times, the different apps that work with AVIsynth and
not to mention codecs for AVI conversions etc.
So, I'm stumpped. Anyways.

Ok, so now comes my question...
What I think I need to know is:
* HOW do I find out what versoin of VFAPI I have installed for AVIsynth (as that
is what I use to frameserve into VDUB and then frameserve into TMPG ? ?
* IS there anything else I need to know that effects quality (color 4 ie) in my
1st pc setup vs. my 1nd pc setup, so that I can MATCH it up, machine to machine
and have the SAME quality of encodes no matter which PC i use ? ?

I hope I asked the right number of questions on this issue.
Thank you for any response you can share.

-vhelp

[Nelson37]

I don't think VFAPI will affect quality, also you should be able to open your AVS file in VDUB and your VDR file in TMPgenc without using VFAPI.
Only way to ensure identical software is to make mirror-image copy of drive using Ghost or something similar. More than likely this is a codec or version issue, order of installation can cause variance. I had trouble with AVISynth on 2nd PC until removed ALL versions and re-installed latest.

How is source clip obtained? If captured on each machine, hardware issues come into play. Even DVD rip can be affected by drive variations.
Although not generally in the manner you describe. Only way to test is to copy identical source clip to each machine. Rule #1 - eliminate the variables.

There are so many things which could be affecting this - DirectX version, WMP updates, Windows updates, software version, installation order. It could easily be some software player you installed months ago and never used that changed the MPEG2 codec, either for the better on the first machine or worse on the 2nd.

How different are the two PC's? Ghosting the drive and then compensating for hardware variations might be easier than trying to duplicate a software setup which consists of multiple programs, codecs, DLL's, Registry changes, etc.

[Poplar]

VFAPI operates in RGB color space, (we're still waiting for the VFAPI with YUV support ) Avisynth operates in YUY2 as most DVDs do. RGB to YUY2 conversions are not lossless. Avoid using them unless absolutely necessary. If you chain too many such conversions together, quality suffers, so does speed.

This is the theory. You can get a basic idea about what happened to your encodings. Don't use VFAPI unless you have to. AVISynth can handle almost everything and it's much faster.

[vhelp]

evening all.

poplar,
In my capture (VHS source mostly, but DVD** and Satalite) I will use any
number of codecs (testing purposes) such as:
* RGB 16bit - 32bit; YUVY; YUYV; YUY2; YV12; I420; IYUV; Y41P and YVU9,
as well as codecs such as:
* Huffy; PIC's MJPEG; Brooktree YUV 411 Raw; Indeo vXXX and then some.

All the above I have used in my capture testings to see which yields the
greatest overall quality.

nelson37,
Now, getting back to VFAPI...
I thought that it might be it hunch'wise. Anyways,
I MUST use the *.avs to vdub to tmpg route for this reason:
* IVTC in AVIsynth, and then, when need arrises, filtering, which ONLY
vbud has the BEST I've used vs. AVIsynth's filters.
* But, most importantly, because of the COLOR (rainbow) issue - something
to do with 8bit color or something like that. I don't see the full
color spectrum when I feed an *.avs script directly into TMPG.
But, even when I use (as has ben suggested here) the ConvertToRGB()
command, it does not completely bring in the full colors. There is still
traces of the first color issue above. Trust me, the color issue IS
THERE on my pc. On both! ...when using *.avs to tmpg.
But, when I use an *.avs to vdub to tmpg, the color issue is GONE!
* Also, I don't use the VFAPIConv-EN.exe app. ...Case that was
what you were saying in your first paragraph.

Again, and given the above as an example or eye opener, this is why I
am here asking this reduclous question!
* How can I find out WHAT version of AVIsynth I have installed, for BOTH
my pcs??, and
* How can in UN-Install them, and re-install the correct version??

nelson37,
BOTH pc's are the same!
Here is my setup for BOTH pc's, basically an image except for CPU
1st PC
* ESC K7S5A w/ XP 1700+ w/ 256MB DDR PC2100
* Video Card: ATRFP (rage fury pro agp)
* Windows 98 (not SE)
* Direct-X: 8.1
* Capture software: AVI_IO, VDUB or Studio
* PowerDVD 3.0 and WinDVD 3.0
* LAN: is turned on for both pc's
* Sharp VCR (RCA) or JVC SVHS (using either RCA or S-Video)
* Cables: Monster Gold series, $39 for RCA and S-Video
* Sima SED-CM
* Capture Card: ATW and ATRFP
* Encoder: TMPG v2.53

2nd PC
* ESC K7S5A w/ XP 1800+ w/ 256MB DDR PC2100
* Video Card: ATR128 (rage 128 pci)
* Windows 98 (not SE)
* Direct-X: 8.1
* Capture software: AVI_IO, VDUB or Studio
* PowerDVD 3.0 and WinDVD 3.0
* LAN: is turned on for both pc's
* Sharp VCR (RCA) or JVC SVHS (using either RCA or S-Video)
* Cables: Monster Gold series, $39 for RCA and S-Video
* Sima SED-CM
* Capture Cards: ATW; WTVGO; PCPVR and DC10+
* Encoder: TMPG v2.53

Note 1, for 1st and 2nd PC:
Capture cards, sometimes, I have two in at a time, and others, I have
only one in.
Note 2, for 2nd PC:
I will be installing (in the future) a dedicated OS harddrive just for
windows and software needed for capturing video and encoding
Note 3, for 1st PC:
I've excluded ATRFP (rage fury pro) card from my 1st pc.
Note 4, for 1st/2nd PC:
LAN, I have it turned on so that I can test the encoding of the captured
clip in question. The capture clip is done on the 2nd pc. When I test
the issue, ie color, it's:
* based on the 2nd pc's captured clip (using same scene for encodes)
* encoded on the 2nd pc, then
* encoded on the 1st pc (via LAN)
* then finally, both clips from 1st and 2nd pc are burned to one cdrw
and play on my AD-1500 via 13" TV.
Note 5, for 2nd PC:
Lets just assume that the source is always from the 2nd pc, and that any
capture card was used, cause it doesn't matter here. For this issues's
sake, all captures are done on 2nd pc. Then, I encode this same clip,
same scene on 1st pc and 2nd pc, and burn both on same cdrw and test
play it to see if there are any variance in quality. There is!

Basically, I should be abel to capture and encode, at any given movment,
based on 2nd pc's captured source, and have the SAME results in final encodes every time weather I encode the source on 2nd pc, or 1st pc!
Assuming that I use of course:
* the SAME codec, and
* the same AVIsynth version

nelson37,
>> installation can cause variance. I had trouble with AVISynth on
>> 2nd PC until removed ALL versions and re-installed latest.
HOW?? I just need to know how to tell which version of WHAT, I have in
my sys. or have you forgotton how.

** for testing purposes only! ...as it beats the wear and tare on VHS
tapes when doing multi-testings.

Thanks for any help w/ this issue.
-vhelp

[Nelson37]

Fortunately, Avisynth is an easy one. Just search for all copies of AviSynth.dll and delete them, then re-install. Now, I think that the OS will use the DLL in the current directory first, then the one in Windows\System, then DLL's found on the path in order, UNLESS somewhere there is an INI file calling a specific one in some different location, or a specific command line reference or environment variable, I don't think I left anything out. I didn't look real hard, I just wanted the most current but you need to match a specific version.

I wouldn't do it just for Avisynth but if that doesn't solve it, your systems are similar enough that ghosting the HD would seem reasonable, depending on how much of a pain the two cap cards are to install. This would also ensure identical setup, I don't see anything in hardware that would affect quality, so identical software should give identical results. Check all BIOS settings.

Have you actually had success encoding over a LAN or do you copy the file and then encode?

BTW, sounds like we use many of the same methods. Which IVTC do you use, and do you get occassional (1-3 per hour) "skips"?

[vhelp]

nelson37,

IVTC tidbits...
* I have several setups for various encoding projects from sources that
are derived from AVI captures only.
* But, I stopped working on them (was trying to refine them) as I have ben
so busy w/ all my issues - VFAPI, Line Noise, and 3rd I forgot just
now.
* But, as for the one I use right now, it's the standard one that seems to
work well for me - tele/decimate, bla, bla, bla.

I'm not too sure what you are talking about, this 1-3 per hour ? ?
Care to elaborate - I aked!

-vhelp

[Nelson37]

vhelp - the effect I am referring to looks just like a single frame drop, occurring, on average, 1 to 3 times per hour. Some movies not at all, although the effect is damn near subliminal and I suppose if it occurred in a static, no-motion scene it would be completely invisible. I am nearly certain it is an IVTC artifact, and this is just about my last obstacle to achieving near perfection. It doesn't seem as many people use IVTC on captures, so whenever I come across one I hope for a miracle answer.