Line Noise - mostly from VCR sources...not quite solved yet.

[vhelp]

evening all.

Ok, here is my issue. During capturing from any VCR, I get these
nasty lines. They are not too noticable when you step away to
say two feet, but when you are say 1 feet, you can cleary see
them - so can TMPG!!

When I encode these capture VCR tapes, the final encoded *.mpg
file is high in bitrate, due to those lines, and grainy looking.
Now, I've ben able to minimize those lines through the use of
filtering but they get pretty complex and VERY time consuimg
during the encoding process.
However, I would like to reduce my filtering during the encoding
process by reducing those line DURING capturing, but not using a
filter DURING capturing. I'm talking reducing those line noises
prior to capuring.

Ok, I've tried the Ferite Beads thing, but unless I'm not
correctly using/applying them to the correct wire, they don't
work, or eliminate ANY line noise.

It would be dificult to show a *.bmp image of such, as you can't
really seem them well, unless you move forward in your video or
just allow it to play in vdub.

The line noise are most prominate in VHS sources, but not as bad
in my Satalite, though you can actaully see them there too.
They are also noticatble in my DVD capturing - not that I do any
DVD capturing, but just to play around or testing purposes only.

NOTE: During my capturing, I turn off everything but the VCR
and PC.
Here are what I have interconnected so far, though most are in
the OFF state:
* 3 VCRs
* 2 DVD players
* 1 13" TV
* 1 Satalite
* 15" monitor
* CPU (on floor, near all wires)
* 1st fan under my monitor (keeps my feet'zees warm or cold)
* 2nd fan 4 feet away

Does anyboy know of how to identify the wire(s) that are
causing my line noise during capturing? ?

Thank you all for your input/advice/answeres!!

-vhelp

[kwag]

How far is your PC from your VCR? If it's too close, that can induce noise straight into your VCR.
Is your power strip properly grounded? If your equipment is not properly grounded, this is a major source of noise.
Just a couple more things for you to check.

-kwag

[vhelp]

evening kwag and others,

Yes, my PC is actually pretty far away from the VCR. It's actualy
hooked up to my 2nd pc, via a regular, 6' Gold Wire (not moster
cable) and then a regular 3' RCA wire to stretch it to the 2nd pc.
I've tried the FB on this wire, both, and still no go.

You can notice the line noise greater by looking at the window
in AVI_IO durin the preview vs. the Overlay mode,
as it is much more slower to update each frame. Of course, when
you begin your capturing, then it acts like Overlay mode,
and you can't really notice it unless you're 1' away.

Again, capturing from satalite and dvd is not as bad, but you can
still notice it - - if that helps narrow down the cause/answere.

-vhelp
FB: Ferrite Beads

PS: kwag, I've solved the color issue w/ Farscape's opening theme, and
the rest of the disk as well. I've managed to get it to look exactly like it
would if played via the DVD disk itself (color'wise) - wasn't easy!!!

[kwag]

Well, just a couple more things you can check. It could be your power supply in your PC, or your UPS ( if you have one ). If you don't, do you have any line conditioning filters? I mean, does your power strip include RFI filters?, or are you using a cheap power strip?

One last thing, and this one won't have a simple solution: Do you live near a high power AM/FM/TV broadcast station ( < 1 mile )?
If you are, I'm sorry for you

-kwag

[vhelp]

evening,

>> One last thing, and this one won't have a simple solution: Do
>> you live near a high power AM/FM/TV broadcast station ( < 1
>> mile)? If you are, I'm sorry for you
No.

I will play around some more before I continue any more w/ my
TFIG's VHS capture/encoding endeavors. I really want to eliminate
any many fiters as posible in my VHS projects. And, if I can do
this for VHS, my encodes will go that much more faster, and perhaps
even slightely improve upon my final encodes as well, since there
wont be any additional noise to filter out, which causes
loss in quality.

Thanks. I'll post again, if I find anything new or make any
progress in eliminating Line noise in my capturings.

Thanks again.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

Ensure the fans are off. They are a major source of noise.

I can make pops and cracks in a cordless phone with any fan I have.

[vhelp]

evening,

>> Ensure the fans are off. They are a major source of noise.
Wish I could, but I live on the 2nd floor, too close to 2' high
attic, and let me tell you, over here, on this floor, it's near
90 degrees, and my HD, though they are cold to the touch in
winter months, they are HOT here, during summer months!!
So, as you can see, I CANT live w/out fans running. MY AC is
also near by, but about 6' or so away.

Thanks for your suggestion, and I will try that as well, just
to see what-if!

Thanks again all.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

I know the feeling I have 4 fans in my computer room but trust me they create noise. They can cause internet modem problems and like I said a cordless phone can pick up noise from them.

My rooms record high was 35 Celcius so I do know how you feel.

[vhelp]

evening,

I will keep the fan issue in mind. Right now, though, I have
other things going on and I can't get to my VCR endeavors just
yet. BUt, I hope to give it a try soon.

In in the middle of adding a new sample clip to upload, so if you
haven't yet D/L'd my latest (current) one, I suggest you do so
before I delete it.
I'm planning on adding a CVD sample. (see below for link)

Again, thanks you all for your suggestions, etc. thus far!

-vhelp
-----------------------------------------------
For Standard VCD samples, you can jump over to this FORUM's link
here: VHELP's Samples... - last updated: 08.11.02

[loriandrick]

If you are capturing from satelite make sure the satelite cable going right to your computer or vcr is RG-6 and not RG59. RG-6 is a heavier wire and causes less interference.

[vhelp]

thanks loriandrick... learn something new every day

[kwag]

@loriandrick
RG-6 is just a thicker cable with a different dielectric, so it has less loss per feet than RG-59. They are both 75 ohm impedance. Having a smaller cable is not necessarily a source of noise, if the cables are properly shielded. Just that the longer the cable, the less signal reaches the receiver, in comparison to an RG-6. If vhelp's problem was related to this, he would also see noise in his TV. But he sees it only in his captures.

@vhelp
I just remembered that I had a ATI card in my PC, and all captures were having the same symptoms you describe. When I changed my card to a Hauppage WinTV GO, the problem dissapeared!. Apparently, the shielding on the ATI cards is not very good. You do have an ATI card, right? Can you borrow another BT-878 based card, and test it in your machine?

-kwag

[vhelp]

evening,

Interesting, kwag.

Here's what I have (just haven't gotten around updating my computer details.
* 1st PC, ATW (ati-tv wonder)
* 2nd PC, WTGO (wintv go)

Both have the Line Noise, but the WTGO seems to be a bit more
clearer, now that I've had a chance to look at the capturing of the WTGO,
a moment ago. I didn't try any of the adjustments/ideas posted here yet.
I just wanted to measure how much Line Noise each card was
producing.

Oh, question about the FB's. Are then suppose to be connected at the end
of the wire, going to the Video's cards' IN? ? or,
are the FB's suppose to be used ONLY on the AC Power card? ? . . .and if so,
. . .on the end, where power card meets PC or AC outlet?, etc.
I could be using the FB's incorrectly, and/or on the wrong set of wires

Thanks.

-vhelp

[kwag]

Put the ferrites, one at each end of your capture cables, the closest to the ends as possible. The idea is that any stray EMF floating around your cables, will be filtered by the beads. EMF can "Ride" in ALL your cables, so if you want to be really paranoid about it , put beads on all your video cables. Heck, I do . Here's a short Satellite Analog capture. No filters used. Just captured with Vdub at 352x480, and processed with KVCD 352x480 PLUS. If you look at the video, there are no noise lines floating around. So, imagine what I would get, if it was a digital channel 8) This is captured from my 4DTV receiver, Satellite C3, Transponder 4 ( Lifetime Channel ) via Composite video connector. Not S-Video.
http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/analog.mpg

-kwag

[vhelp]

Just got finished looking at your sample capture clip.

Mine looks pretty the same as yours, w/out any nose during my Satalite
captures. The Line Noise is just barely noticeable, if you
really look hard. But, my VHS captures are another thing. There is
where the noise come in the most.
I've seen other peoples VHS samples, and I've notice that there aren't
any Line Noise in them.
Again, I can get rid of most, if not all, but at a cost... mostly of
time, like triple or more encoding time to complete. Somthing that I
want to eliminate, if possible.

Again, thanks you all for your suggestions, etc. thus far!

-vhelp
-----------------------------------------------
For Standard and other VCD samples, you can jump over to this FORUM's link
here: VHELP's Samples... - last updated: 08.17.02

[ROBO1964]

kwang, just out of interest what was the bitrate on that clip?


Vhelp, could your VCR itself be the source of the noise?

[vhelp]

morning robo1964 and others,


bitrate:
He posted it, in the form of his template. the "kcvd plus"
Just open it up and in tmpg and have a look in the Settings.

Yes, it could be my VCR, BUT... I have three, and all THREE are producing
the same thing, so there can't be a coensidence! Something is causing
it to happen, but what?

Thanks.

-vhelp
-----------------------------------------------
For Standard and other VCD samples, you can jump over to this FORUM's link
here: VHELP's Samples... - last updated: 08.17.02

[kwag]

kwang, just out of interest what was the bitrate on that clip?

It's VBR, done with the KVCD 352x480 PLUS template.
The average bit rate is 1,725Kbps, as seen in bit rate viewer.

-kwag

[vhelp]

Ok, I've moved my VCR over to my 2nd pc and put on table. In a nicely
comfortable spot for reach and remote control operations. It's comfy!

However, I still get those nasty lines. They're sort of black. If I
can get a decent screen shot of it, I will. OH, wait, I can capture
the blue screen as video. WHy didn't I think of that. And, I'll
post that, if I can, so that you get an idea of what I'm talking about.
I know it's hard to understand, and w/out any form of visual proof,
I can't be helped further. So, I'm off to tinker w/ some evidence.

So, basically, it's not the VCRs, as they all show this same anamily.

Ahh, as to your sample kwag, I figured out why it's on the blurry side.
I was about to blame your Satalite source (mine is DirecTV) when I
realised, after looking at your video's specs, it was stated as 23fps.
To keep it from studdering, you used some form of de-interlacing, and
prob. using some form of BLEND in your AVS script somewheres.
I used to use blend myself in my OLD days, but I got fed up with the
blurryness. I said, I'll settle w/ a little jidder if have to. So, I don't mind
once in a while it jitters. But, it was pretty clean though.

Have a good day all.

-vhelp

[kwag]

Ahh, as to your sample kwag, I figured out why it's on the blurry side.
I was about to blame your Satalite source (mine is DirecTV) when I
realised, after looking at your video's specs, it was stated as 23fps.
To keep it from studdering, you used some form of de-interlacing, and
prob. using some form of BLEND in your AVS script somewheres.
I used to use blend myself in my OLD days, but I got fed up with the
blurryness. I said, I'll settle w/ a little jidder if have to. So, I don't mind
once in a while it jitters. But, it was pretty clean though.

Have a good day all.

-vhelp

Not exactly vhelp .
There's no blend, filtering, or deinterlacing. That sample was shot FILM, so I Inverse telecided with an AviSynth script, to get back the original frame rate. Also your captures are digital. This one was from a plain analog channel. So there's some inherent noise in the transmission. I could post a Digital sample, but I'm not currently subscribed to any digital prime channels. I'll look for some digital wild feeds, and make a sample, which are way sharper. I should have used a little noise reduction on the sample, but I just wanted to show you what I'm getting with the WinTV Go card, and plain Composite Video capture.

-kwag

[vhelp]

Aaah, it's not bother kwag

Anyways, I am a paragon! Well, felt good saying it, he, he...!
I have capture a blue screen, which highlights those black lines I was
trying to describe. I captured 11 seconds of it, saw that it was 69MB
and said, no way. ...AVI's Can't be shrunk, let a alone, after Huffy
compressed it, etc., bla, bla.
Wrong! I was able to Save As, a 3 second sample AVI and then COMPRESS
it via *.rar, and got it this 3/sec 10mb file down to 3mb. Not bad for
Internet transmission! Hay, I have a question for anyone here.
In VDUB, I want to repeat this small clip, is there a repeat key in the
VDUB? ?
I would help for you to see those black noisy lines, rather than having
to bounce your mouse around every time.

I'm off to upload the AVI clip. I'll keep you all alert when it's ben
uploaded! Later.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

Ok, after transfering to my 1st pc (via CD) I played the sample in vdub
here, and it was a little harder to see, so I ended up taking off my
filter screen, and then I could see it, but it was not as bad. Prabably
due to my ATI Rage Fury Pro AGP, graphic card on this pc. My 2nd pc has
the ATI Rage 128 pci version, and the color space is a bit different on
each. So, you may want to take that into consideration. In other
words, it may look really pronouced on one person's PC, while on you's,
for ie, will hardly be noticable.

So, in any case, TMPG, when it encodes the video, CAN see the noise, and
when it encodes, has to raise the bitrate up pretty high to compensate,
not to mention, there is data that should not be their in the first
place, asside from the usuall VHS/VCR noise. Mind you, this is a brand
new VCR I just got at Circuite City less than a month ago or so.

Now, in lighter scenes, you CAN notice those black squiggly lines.
Trust me.

Here is the sample NOISE.RAR file.
Now, I'm sure that this is not normal??

Later.

-vhelp

[Greyhair]

Not sure you've tried this yet, but do you have devices, i.e. computer, vcr plugged into different outlet? I find that if they're not originating from the same outlet, I get line noise.

[vhelp]

ok, just to add, I've tried capturing w/out ANY fans on, except for both
my 1st and 2nd pc's and the result is the same.

I don't know if anyone has D/L'ed the sample AVI noisy file, but if you
have, let me know if this is the same kind of noise you rec've or is it
something I still have to figure out in taking out before I capture.

Thanks again.
-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

I dunno how to open a .rar file.

OK we will figure it out by the process of elimination. What is the source of your video from the VCR? Tape? Cable?

Does it do it on all your computers? Could the computer be the source.
How are you wires layed out. All nice and neat is bad and a jumble is good. Do you have a power supply or power bar or surge protector as they can cause noise.

[bbb]

What do you use to connect your VCR to your capture card? A/V (composite) cables or coaxial?

[vhelp]

The I use currently is WinRAR.exe 2.90 beta 2
There website: http://www.winrar-usa.com

I prefer it over WinZip, which I've ben using since it's
begining, but recently switched to WinRAR.

So, have you seen the clip?

>> OK we will figure it out by the process of elimination. What is the
>> source of your video from the VCR? Tape? Cable?
* VCR, using store bought VHS movies only.

>> Does it do it on all your computers? Could the computer be the source.
Yes, it's on ALL the PCs.

>> How are you wires layed out. All nice and neat is bad and a jumble is good.
It's all JUMBLED!! And, all on floor (carpet)

>> Do you have a power supply or power bar or surge protector as
>> they can cause noise.
Supply switches, but no surge, only 1 fuse switch.

I've tried turning off all FANs, but I still get those black noisy bars
in my captures. You can notice it more when in PREVIEW mode of AVI_IO,
just before you press the Record button. The noise is most noticable
during light scenes, or anything past black or dark.

>> bbb, Cables?
I have a 6' Gold wire, by Radio Shack. It's for Tape dubbin, and has
yellow, for RCA phono, and Red/White for the audio, all on one stream,
and in a flat parrallel glue. I have tried other REGular cords, even just
RCA only, but to no avail.

That's about it for now.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

Hmmm.....power switches (what are those?) just normal power bars can cause interference.

Does anyone around your area have a CB or shortwave radio?

Are you using different video capture cards in the different PC's?

[Scrooge]

So many appliances and so many earths! Maybe you have an earth potential loop. (like and antenna)
Many HiFi buffs have problems with inductions from earth potentials along the shields of their audio leads, and through where the earths pass into wall sockets on their power leads.
They test for the elimination of these by trying an extension lead without a earth across the appliances, and RCA leads with the shield missing at one end.
Might apply here, or might not. Sounds like you have tried everything else.

[ROBO1964]

Ya know I was just thinking. On my old system I used to get what appeared as interference from time to time on my monitor and I was pretty sure it was my DVD card as if I disconnected that it was fine. Then a tech mentioned that your refresh rate on the monitor could do that with some cards if set at the "Optimal" setting. I changed mine to 85Hz and it fixed it completely.

I didn't put 2 and 2 together until just now as you are rapidly exhausting all possible causes.