Line Noise - mostly from VCR sources...not quite solved yet.

[vhelp]

bbb,

are those VCDs you're talking about?

Anyways, the only thing I can think of w/ the DC is that just maybe,
I got a bad one in the batch or something.
Circuit City doesn't carry them any more, if i remember correctly.

So far, this is the only unit that does not produce any Line Noise
what-so-ever from my capture sources, be it DVD, Satalite, or VHS.

These are the cards that I have and tested. They all exhibit Line Noise
to a noticable level or so:
* ATW (ati-tv wonder) (rca / s-video)
* WTVGO (wintv go) (rca)
* PCPVR (i/o matrics pc pvr) (rca / s-video) (minimal noise, but still noticable on TV)

-vhelp

[bbb]

CVDs and SVCDs.

[vhelp]

.
.
and are you using any sort of filtering for your VHS-to-CVD/SVCD projects??
I've managed to create a number of VHS filters (call it a cook book)
to help clean out the Line Noise, though I wasn't calling it that
at the time.

-vhelp

[bbb]

I don't have your horizontal line noise.

However, I use filters on old bad looking VHS tapes or tapes with lots of grainy static/noise--I still record from TV antenna signals because my cable TV signal is nondigital and looks worse than antenna signals while recording (annoying rolling diagonal line interference).

CAPTURE:
I always capture at 640x480 at about 4000 bitrate using MJPEG.

FILTERS:
For dirty VHS recordings, I use a VirtualDub filter set--video denoise, blend deinterlace, gaussian blur, sharpen, unsharp mask--works pretty well.

For DVDs and clean VHS recordings, I started to use blend deinterlace and sharpen 32 (to counteract the slight blurriness introduced by blend deinterlace)--looks sharp and gets rid of interlaced lines without risking inverse telecine stutter in slow panning scenes.

RESIZE:
I use Tmpgenc resize to CVD and to crop the bottom.

FILTER AND RESIZE COMMENTS:
Before I was mainly using Tmpgenc for sharpening and deinterlacing. Now after more experience with Virtual Dub, I can get better quality by being able to reorder the filters.

Yet, some functions still work better in Tmpgenc than Virtual Dub: Resize looks cleaner and Noise Reduction (at the lightest level) cleans up grain better for video with abundant static (Virtual Dub's static noise reduction can be splotchy and Virtual Dub's dynamic noise reduction can introduce unsightly temporal after images).

[therick]

@bbb - so you use the noise filters, etc. on the 640x480 and THEN resize down? Is this right? Do you think this is better than resizing and THEN applying noise (and other) filters? If so I would like to know the rationale. I know that a resize down acts as kind of a noise filter, but I have switched to resizing and THEN smoothing and sharpening, for speed mostly. Should I be doing it your way?

Also I know I am sending kind of a barrage of questions, but what kind of resize deoes TMPEGEnc use? Bicubic or bilinear? I have always wondered this...

[vhelp]

evening all.

VHELP's back w/ some butt kicking. . .

therick,
I don't think that this was ever truely solve, though I've seen this question
asked before on this FORUM.

And, as far as bbb's use of filtering, yes, that is perfectly ok to utilize
that route. I'm sure therick is aware of the timing penalties, but worth
it sometimes to go against the grain, as in therick's filtering
route. I've gone this route myself, especially w/ VHS cleansing. However, w/ my
update'ed Line Noise'less cap card, I don't, he, he... later.

bbb,
those must be pretty bad/noisy VHS tapes! I'm assuming you recorded to them via
antenna, etc.
Capture:
the best I could do w/ the DC10+ was 3000, and I still dropped frames often,
sometimes more than I wished.
Filters:
I'd be curious to know how long it takes to filterize say, a one minute clip. I've
ben playing w/ cleaning up, to reduce my encoding times, and have managed to get a
fairly clean VHS encode via filtering from ie, a one minute would take close to 10
minute, but w/ my revised filtering, I was able to bring time down to 7 minutes.
For Noisy VHS tapes, and Line Noise capture cards, this was THE only route to
take. And, I've ben doing this for VHS tapes for quite some time. So, saving the
extra 3 minutes was worth it.
But, I have grown tired of the long wait, and hence, my creation of this THREAD -
Line Noise All this has to do w/ this thread, ie, Filtering; Noise; Capture
cards; just about anything that has to do w/ Noise.

bbb, it's too bad w/ can't see any samples from your encoding projects. Oh, that
reminds me... I'm long over due w/ a sample to post here. hmmm.

I have another update, but will post it separately.

-vhelp

[bbb]

therick,

For best quality, you should definitely resize as your last filter/step. Resizing at the last step does slow down the encoding a bit but it's worth it. You will defintely see a difference between resizing first and resizing last for VHS sources; probably not as obvious for DVD sources but there is still a difference.

At first I thought my Tmpgenc was becoming inconsistent in encoding image quality but it turned out that I was just resizing the video at different stages for different clips. When I resize as the first filter in VD, my resultant MPEG didn't look that great. When I resized as the last VD filter or with Tmpgenc, the MPEG looked much better--sharper and less noise/blocks.

Note: It is slower if you resize as the last step. (e.g., 4 minutes for resize first in VD versus 7 minutes for resize last in VD versus 10 minutes for resize in Tmpgenc)

My Filter Plan: I use virtual dub filters to blend deinterlace and blur/clean the video only as much as necessary to get rid of the most offensive noise/grain. Then, I try to get the right frame to look as sharp as the left frame without introducing additional distortions. Finally, I frameserve to Tmpgenc which does the resizing. Resizing as the last step with VD gives pretty good results and is slightly faster than Tmpgenc. However, I still prefer Tmpgenc's resizing--it gives a sharper image.


vhelp,

I am indeed looking for a webserver to host files and pics but probably won't get one until September.

Yes, antenna encodings are not so hot. When the microwave is turned on my video reception is fried by interference.

Regarding the DC10+, I use to capture at 3300 and they look good as good as my current rate of 4000-4200. I experience very few drop frames when I install the Via4in1 but you have a SiS system which has different motherboard drivers that I have no experience with. Just make sure your Bios is set for enabled on Large Block Transfers and that your drives are set to UDMA enabled. Finally, keep your capture partition as empty as possible. This should lessen your frame drops.

Also, you probably shouldn't be running 29 different applications and downloading files while capturing video.

Tomorrow, I will test to see how long my system encodes 1 minute of VHS video with my VHS VD filter set. I will post my results.

[vhelp]

Well, I do have some updates on the Line Noise issues.

But, I'll be breif here, as its goin gon 3:30am and I'm pooped!

I've managed to finally get the color issues correct (I think) or
worked out w/ the DC10+'s color.
* I took out the WTVGO card
* put back in the PCPVR card
* Started up Studio, set to capture for a few minutes,
* power down
* started up, and loaded up AVI_IO, made a new settings *.ini file
* put tape in JVC SVHS vcr
* hooked up a SIMA device to JVC and DC10+
* captured parts of LOTR
* Encoded those parts, and quality was as good as the VHS (IMO)
but, I did go a little hard on the green. so, I've re-adjusted it,
and an now re-encoding again to see if it matches close to the VHS
copy. So far, it looks very good.

I admit, that something did happen between my installing the
* DC10
* WTVGO
* PCPVR
and installing each software packing, and then yanking out the WTVGO
card, and reinstalling the PCPVR, and actually getting it to work
for the 1st time in windows 98. And, when both the PCPVR and DC10+
cards were in, and I started up AVI_IO (give or take) the captures
started to look better. I don't know for sure, but it could be the
Hauppage VFW driver and the PCPVR's drivers causing prob, as I start
up AVI_IO, I always get the Wintv error box, but capturing is fine
for the DC10 via the AVI_IO app. I seem to drop much less frames
when going this route, then if I capped in Studio. So, Go figure.

I also did some research w/ my ATI Rage Fury Pro graphics card, being
that it's also a capture card too. I forget its there. In short,
this card showed the least bit of noise, asside from the DC10. You
barely saw any Line Nose w/ the Rage Fury. so, I was impressed
with it. But, the DC10 still holds it's ground for better quality.
Much more cleaner video. It just can't be beat! Again, the color
issue w/ the DC10 is almost fix. Few more things to test.

Well, getting pretty late. Be back tomorrow maybe.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

VHELPs UPDATE

Evening all.

Ok, here is where I am now w/ Line Noise.
So far, the following cards produce the noise (call it what you want)
in their respective quantity level of 1 - 5 being the max:

-- Level -- -- -- -- MODEL/BRAND -- -- -- - BUS -- -- VIDEO -- -- --
.... 5 ............. ATI (ati-tv wonder) .. PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 5 ............. ATI (ati-tv wonder VE) PCI .. RCA (win98SE or ME > )**1
.... 5 ............. WTVGO (wintv go) ..... PCI .. RCA
.... 3 ............. I/O Magic PC PVR...... PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 2 ............. ATI Rage Fury Pro .... AGP .. RCA
.... 0 ............. DC10+ ................ PCI .. RCA / S-Video

Remember, I'm looking for the clearest video signal for capturing of
VHS source (at Satalite/DVD as well, but not often) !!
And, the DC10+ wins hand-down, without a doubt - no noise.
* I've managed to fix the color issue somewhat. But picture quality
looks very good, and IMO, MPEG looks as good as the VHS.
* If you are using the DC10+, Don't both using any filters for reducing
noise, else it will introduce pixel blocks, etc. but if you must, then
at least I've warned you.

I decided to purchase the ATWVE (ati-tv wonder ve) to rule out that
it could be my older ATW capture card. I wanted to see if this
newer generation capture card would produce as clear a video signal as
the DC10+ and that if it DIDN'T, then I know its definately NOT my**2 :
* motherboard
* wireing
* grounding
* or possibly shielding
* or IRQ, just in case someone had that on there mind

**1 - UPDATE - does not work under windows 98, must be 98SE or ME
or greater.
Also, just finished doing captures, I'm sad to say, there's plenty of noise!

**2 - because, after all, the DC10+ does not produce ANY noise! So, it
coudn't possibly be any of the above, if their is no noise in the DC10+

Well, I'm off to install my ATWVE card in my 2nd pc. This is the PC
I use in ALL my capture card testing, for noise etc.
I will keep you informed w/ my progress.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

ATWVE update.

1, does not work under windows 98, must be 98SE or ME or greater.
However, I was able to get it to work by using my old ATW drivers CD
disk, and setting up w/ VWF drivers.
2, capture quality was not very good either. I was only able to capture
at 352x480 w/ a few frame drops, but 720x480 cause massive drops.
3, Yes, I'm sad to say, there's plenty of Line Noise all over!!

This card is definately going back to CC. But, even Satalite and DVD
captures show the NOISE, but not as bad.

So far, the DC10+ is the winner with NO NOISE!! ...and very good CVD
quality.

So far, the only way to cure the Line Noise is the dump the all
the cards below
-- Level -- -- -- -- MODEL/BRAND -- -- -- - BUS -- -- VIDEO -- -- --
.... 5 ............. ati (ati-tv wonder) .. PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 5 ............. ati (ati-tv wonder ve) PCI .. RCA (win98SE or ME > )**1
.... 5 ............. wtvgo (wintv go) ..... PCI .. RCA
.... 3 ............. i/o magic pc pvr...... PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 2 ............. ati rage fury pro .... AGP .. RCA
.... 0 ............. dc10+ ................ PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.
.
and get/keep the DC10+ for VHS captures.

Cards/Filtering:
My theory is this, all those who have the above capture cards, and then
some, that I haven't tested yet, ALL have this Line Noise that I've
ben racking my brains out with. You all MUST be experiencing the same
thing as I am, but you are not looking for it, OR, you are using many
filters to clean. The only problem I have this filtering my VHS, store
bought that is, (a) is that they incorporate those nasty hatches or square
pixels, especially during dark scenes (b) the timeline for encoding is
tremendous at times.
For my TGIF windown, I just want to pop in a VHS tape, capture it, and then
encode it, but as to the encoding, I don't want it to take all night, rather
3 to 5 hours at best using CVD as my primary target. As, all the test clips
so far, have proven, IMO, excellent in my Apex AD-1500 and 13" TV. So...
TGIF SCENARO:
* browse a video store ie Walmart/K-Mart etc.
* pick out a $5 Video
* after work, ~6pm, pop in a VHS movie,
* press play, and proceed to capture it (I'll surf and do other things)
* and THEN encode it... by 11pm or so, encoding is complete, and I can now
watch it or whatever, but while all this was happening, I was able to do
other mundaine things because all this is happening in my 2nd pc
I'm going to start this off this TGIF, and it'l be my Friday routine for the
time being. And, it'l be something to look forward to every TGIF

Well, that about wraps it up for tonight.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

Evening all.

Ok, I believe to have SOLVED the Line Noise mystery, and can possibly
put an end to this topic. (???)

MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!!
MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!!
MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!!
MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!!
MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!! MACROVISION!!

All those black lines that I saw (only/mostly on VHS source) were due to
the Capture Card trying to either, Hide or Block or Reduce the quality of
the video when capturing from sources like VHS, so that you don't give
up or return the product to the capture card manufacturers etc., and they
can have their piece of the pie, if you know what I mean.
But, VHS is more pronouced w/ these black lines. In any case, I think
that MV doesn't have to be shown in colors, but can so call, descise them
self as NOISE, etc. in other ways, like when using a device such as a
capture card.

How I came to this conclusion was quite simple, and I had hunched on it
a few weeks ago, but choose to ignore it due to shear stubberness.
The DC10+ is NOT MV aware. All this time, this card was so clean and
noise free. I kept blaiming it on all the capture cards I had, and even the
ones bought just recently (now I can return those)

Again, I'll post those cards that have MV associated with them:
* ATW
* ATWVE
* ATRFP (rage fury pro)
* ALL ATI capture cards for that matter.
* WTVGO
* All Hauppage AVI capture cards, except the wintv PVR USB, as I have it.
* PCPVR

The DC10+ is THE only card that does not have MV association what so
ever. I can't speak for the newer ones now under the name:
* Studio 7 and Studio 8.
These may have MV association now, but I can't be certain. So, if you are
planning on dong VHS-to-VCD/CVD etc., and planning on Studio 7 or 8, be
aware that it may interfear w/ quality due to MV. I'm refering to those
store bought movies on VHS tapes, not recorded to VHS tapes via your
VCR, though even this method will kick in the MV of the cards above to
some minor extent, as I have noticed in many of my captures, now that I
am aware of the different types of NOISE during final captured file. You
can see green and/or red stripes, if you look closely on certain captures
from various Satations, ie MTV and VH1 and when certain movies are
shown, like first time airng or new ones or whatever. I still have plenty
of my Satalite tapings that I've done on all the miniDV tapes from my
DV cam. And, when I run some of them through my capture cards, the
MV shows up (IF you know what to look for, as I do) But, as I've said, only
minor, not as dramatic as on VHS tapes.

* Oh, I also wanted to point out that NOT ALL store bought movies are MV'd
but most are. Those that I come accross w/out I will have the choise of
either using my other capture cards, or else my DC10+ card.
* Also, I noticed that if I use my SIMA SED-CM copymaster unit w/ my
VHS and Capture card, it reduces the MV on some tapes, even eliminates
on one or two, but haven't really had the chance to test this out therally.
ie of some are: Bugs Life, LOTR on some scenes, etc. which by the way,
came out nice!! using my JVC SVHS via S-Video route. Gold Plated also
helps in quality, as every bit helps.

Well, this pretty much concludes the Line Noise issue.
Thank you to all those that contributed their help/knowledge during this
bezare quest to rid these so called Noises during capturing.

-vhelp

[Nelson37]

Vhelp, if your description of testing procedure is accurate, then the noise is NOT Macrovision, nor coming from the capture card.

" Blue screen, NO Noise, Power on VCR, get Noise, WITHOUT a tape playing". If you get noise with no tape playing, then it is not Macrovision. Also, if card captures clean blue screen, then card is not noisy. If the noise comes only when VCR powers on, then it is an electrical or RF interference problem. Many such problems are caused by improper grounding.

I believe the DC10 doesn't show the noise because it is not capturing the input as accurately as the other two cards.

One question - what is the source of the blue screen when the VCR is turned OFF?

[vhelp]

nelson37,
I'm gonna dissagree w/ you on your points.
Again, the sample BLUE SCREEN .avi I provided for D/L on page 1, I
think, was produced by turn on my VCR only. As soon as a source
is recignised (tape or out or tv tuner on or off, doesn't matter)
as long as their is a signal, the black line or noise imediately
shows. It ain't a grounding issue. I've already exhausted myself
on this issue in various scenaros to exhaustion.
Also, the grounding can by dropped, for a number of reasons:
* forgeting about your point on the DC10 not being accurate.
* the dc10 has a clean signal, when I turn on the VCR (tape in or
out, tv tuner on or off) no black lines or noise
* when any OTHER capture card, all hell breaks loose and those
lines ALL show up! (MV)
* tested under varous grounding and non grounding condition AND
for BOTH dc10 and ALL other capture cards as well.
Like I said, these tests were done to exhaustion.
* also another reason is I tested w/ an 2000 watt Invertor. Even
though these things don't always produce a clean source and the
proper square wave, that doesn't matter as TV viewing doesn't show
any artfiacts or lines or any distortion. so, a test using this
routine was ok to try. Again, even w/ an 2000 watt Invertor, the
black lines/noise kicked in for all capture cards, except for the
DC10. STill think the dc10 is not so accurate??

Oh, by the way, I'm going to try out an experiment with the dc10
card's OUT feature and connect an RCA from it all the way to my
capture card in my 1st pc (ATW) and see if MV shows up or not.
This was a test I forgot to do. The only one left out of the
equasion.

Again, the back lines/nosise is at its strongest when I connect
any sort of VCR to the capture cards, except for the dc10.
If I connect to my Satalite/DV cam, no noise (tha tI can see unless
I squinch reall hard) So, again, I say, that your grounding is mute
on this as the Sat/DV prove otherwise here. No what I mean?

It's MV interfearing again. Maybe this is what your statement should
uv ben like. That thise capture cards can't clean up the MV signal
very well, so they all leave garbadge behind,hence the noise!

-vhelp

[Nelson37]

Repeat - if you get noise WITHOUT A TAPE PLAYING, then it is NOT and CANNOT BE Macrovision. Macrovision is embedded in the tape.

If sinal is clean running thru VCR, and the ONLY change is to power on the VCR to cause the noise, it is clear that the noise is being induced by the VCR. Either noisy power or some kind of amplification of signal.

Side Note = You cannot compare signal displayed thru PC on monitor and signal displayed on TV. Fundamental differences in technology will result in slight differences in display, making diagnosis of such a problem difficult.

Simple process of elimination. You can make ONE change to induce the noise. That change is to power on the VCR. The change is reversible. Power off, no noise. While the problem could be internal to the VCR, it is most likely RF interference, which is usually related to grounding. I am talking about the building ground and wiring as a whole, NOT the third prong on the plug.

Try this test. Plug VCR into a Battery Backup unit. Power on equipment, observe lines. UNPLUG UPS unit from the wall outlet to seperate VCR from building power. Observe lines. Try same test with UPS on PC, base unit AND monitor must be plugged into UPS, no other devices with line power connected.

If problem is in the ground, then UPS, Surge, Line Contitioners, etc. will not solve it as these devices require a good ground in order to function properly. I am not an electrician, but in the dozen or so times I have called one in to solve such a problem I have tried to learn as much as possible.

[menace]

to test ground there is a simple meter you can buy for $25 that you plug into outlets and it will tell you if you have a proper ground. it won't indicate interference but one thing at a time. Also, if your cables pass close to AC adapters or outlets that power electric motors you will pick up interference from them (this happens to me occasionally capturing from the satellite) As for macrovision--you will know it when you see it, or rather don't see anyhting else anymore--it more often than not completely blocks the video signal leaving only audio and a small sliver of video (terrible thing that MV )

oh yeah if you have alot of electronics on one line (not just the outlet but all the outlets on the breaker) they will induce harmonics into the lines--if you have ever seen the tacoma narrows bridge video you will know what i mean--this may be your problem on a very small scale.

[kwag]

So far, the only way to cure the Line Noise is the dump the all
the cards below
-- Level -- -- -- -- MODEL/BRAND -- -- -- - BUS -- -- VIDEO -- -- --
.... 5 ............. ati (ati-tv wonder) .. PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 5 ............. ati (ati-tv wonder ve) PCI .. RCA (win98SE or ME > )**1
.... 5 ............. wtvgo (wintv go) ..... PCI .. RCA
.... 3 ............. i/o magic pc pvr...... PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.... 2 ............. ati rage fury pro .... AGP .. RCA
.... 0 ............. dc10+ ................ PCI .. RCA / S-Video
.
.
and get/keep the DC10+ for VHS captures.

Did you ever think on trying those cards on another motherboard ???
Because my inherent noise is "0" in my WinTV GO card
And that's capturing on Composite or S-Video connector.

-kwag

[vhelp]

Then you're lucky!

Yes, I've thought about that, and actually tried to find a cheapo mother
board all this weekend, but couldn't not find one. Reason I was trying
for the cheapo ones, is because I still have my older PC case and power
supply and harddrive and everything else here. I just need to put in
anothre motherboard that will work in this same setup w/ minimum fussing
around. Then, I was going to try the capturing on this setup and see if
if happens as well. But, so far, I can't right now.

Oh, by the way, I tried using the DC10+'s output plug (though i used the
RCA for this test) on my 2nc pc and fed it through to my 1st pc.
Result, NO NOSE!! case you didn't hear me - - NO NOISE!! And that was
with a flemzy RCA plug, piggy backed on another RCA plug, to reach my
1st pc on other side of room - 9 feet away!!
Wait a mimute, actually there was some noise, but just a slight hint of it.
IT WAS THE MACROVION!! on mine, you can see the green banding in
bright areas. So, there must be more than one type of MV going around.
Cause, This card was suppose to be MV'less, but it doesn't seem to be
in this case. And, also, I used my sopposively MV'less SIMA SED-CM
too. But I could still see some MV banding in certain scenes. But, for the
most (and important) part, the source being captured was not noisey!
But, pull the plug from the DC10+ (as I actually did do in this test) and
put in through VCR, and voalla!! NOISE is BACK!! ...all while still capturing
the video!

I'm even more stumpped!!!

Also, I got a Pwer Pack, w/ 300 watt invertor. Hooked it up to my PC
and tried captring from it. Result: Just as noisy!

-vhelp

[vhelp]

UPDATE...

Evening all.
Ok, time for some interesting tid-bits. . .

Alright... lastnight, i did some fudging around w/ cap cards, video cards
placements and driver installations, due to a system instability - things
weren't working like they used to.

In any case, I yanked out the DC10 and put in my WTVGO card.
* placed it waaayyy down the last I/O slot this time, instead of 1st slot.
* did some diver ordering
* and so forth.

In short, two things I noticed:
1, The Line Noise was all but gone (on one movie, no noise, while on
another, some minor noise under certain conditions in some scenes) (but, in
these same movies I did days before, there WERE noise. So, something DID
happen*1*
2, Their seem to be no traces of Macrovision when using this card. Now, I
know that their is - that is, that it shows up during the capturing AND IS
in the captured file. But, for some reason, NOW, all my caps are MV'less and
Noise'less - just about (there's a hint of black noise in some scenes)

*1* I've narrowed it down to the ATI-TV Wonder drivers I've installed in ALL
instances of my video capturing between installing and un-installing for the
past 2 weeks or so. I believe (or theorize) that ATI is including MV commands
in there *.DLL files, as so far, I haven't loaded/installed any ATI drivers
yet, other than the old drivers for the ATI-Rage 128 graphics card CD. This
card I bought in June of 1997 or 1998 - right about where the start of MV
came into place, but wasn't strong running then, if you know what I mean.

Now, as far as the no traces of MV w/ the WTVGO card, I need to do some
further testing on this to be sure. But, in any case, I am theorizing that
todays Graphics Cards are NOW including MV in the *.dll files etc. though
I could be wrong - not.

So, to recap, I can:
----------------------------
* capture w/out (or reduced) Line Noise
* and, w/out (or reduced) Macrovision
* also, can capture w/ ZERO frame drops, but only w/ AVI_IO

That's about it for now, with Line Noise thus far.
-vhelp

[vhelp]

UPDATE. . . 09.12.02

YES !!

It WAS, IS MacroVision that is causing the Line Noise!!
I finnaly stuck my hands in my pocket and got a little gizmo toy, and
tested a capture run. The gizmo had a button you could press to see
the before and after results.
To my surprise, I could see:
* when button IN, LINE/NOISE
* when button OFF, NO Line Noise

Earlier, I had theorized that it of MV, but was shot down w/ a statement
that it wasn't. I knew that MV had something to do with the noise I
was receiving during my captureing. I was right. Somehow, my capture
cards sense the line signal as a VCR and sends or produces noise.
I don't claim to know much about MV, but I theorize that the noise my
capture card was picking up was the MV circuite (even if it was software
related) that what MV does with the frames ie color stripes, picture bobbing
up and down, . . .all those glitches that take place w/ MV caused my ATI
card (and others) to produce noise.

Now, the hint that it was MV (my theory again) was my trusty DC10+ card.
This card is MV'less, and has no noise in it's captures. Every time I'd
turn on my VCR w/ the DC10+ connected to it, no noise, but when I would
quickly switch (switchbox) to my ATI (any, or any other capture card for
this test) I'd get those blasid noise again)
Earlier I posted that I beleived it to be MV related (thanks to VHS tapes
that have MV writen all over'em all) and my statement was quickly
dismissed of such. Oh, how right I was after all, he, he...
Somehow, my cards pick up the MV signal in the source and start to react
to it. Each of my cards had various ways of interpreting the MV signal and
cause a varience in the capture noise. ie, sometimes, one cared would
NOT show MV, but would have lots of noise, while on another, it would show
the MV singal ie color stirps, and have lesser noise.
I found that my AFIRFP (rage fury pro) would produce a clean capture
file and no MV BUT, would drop lots of frames and/or video would jump
up and down, or go squggly on my ever so often.
So, I found that every cards reacts to MV in certain ways, and that drivers
and Direct-X versoin ALSO have a play in MV reactions.

Ok, I only have just ben able to test this out on my 1st PC. The real test
will be when I start a few more test, but w/ my 2nd PC - which I use for
my capturing/encoding endeavors. I suppose that this thread should have
ben Macrovision all along. Oh well.
Later, I will post my final findings here. So, stay tuned!!

-vhelp
PS: I reserve the right to make any changes as I see fit.

[blindpetted]

I looked at your sample, that is nothing to be worried about, it is a tape that has been watched too much, recently i converted vhs music videos, which i had previously converted to vcd, the originals look better than the current, those "black" lines are a part of vhs, it sux ass, grab the flaXen VHS filter for VirtualDub, it will do the noise reduction for you, peece

[Nelson37]

I will try once more. Macrovision IS NOT PRESENT if you simply run a signal thru the VCR. From your example above of capturing from DC10 output to other PC, no noise, run signal thru VCR - BYPASS ONLY - NO TAPE -then you get noise. There is a power or RF interference problem.

Your sample does NOT look like Macrovision, as 2 or 3 others have stated.
It certainly does look like an RF interference problem.

If you are not playing a tape, your VCR does NOT produce a Macrovision signal degradation.

As stated before, if you have a bad building ground, NOTHING, not a line conditioner, UPS, surge or anything else will solve this problem. Although an electrician with a screwdriver may be able to solve it in less than 5 minutes.

Test for Ground Problem - set up for noise, VCR passing signal only - no tape. VCR plugged into UPS. Unplug UPS from wall outlet so that VCR is ISOLATED from all building power. If lines disappear, its a power issue.

Test for RF interference - set up as above. Turn off VCR, the same signal is still passing thru it but VCR electronics no longer a factor. You seem to have already stated that you have done such a test and the lines disappear. Please discuss this with an expert, VCR will NOT produce Macrovision while simply passing thru a Video Signal. But it CAN impose an RF interference pattern, possibly even if turned off. If so, Bypass VCR, then cap with a supposedly "noisey" card.

I believe some cards simply do not have the fidelity to capture the interference which is always there if the VCR is powered on.

[fellaw]

Have you tried cleaning your recording and playing heads with a proper tape?

[vhelp]

Evening all.

What a roller coaster. First, I say, solved, then NOT then solved, now, I
don't know what to say. So, leave it. Later on... Anyways.

fellaw,
No. There's no need to because:
* This happens to Brand Spankin new store bought movies
* weather I record to a clean tape in SP or EP for that matter, noise is
still there.
* I have 3 VCRs, and ALL produce the same level (give or take a few)

I am able to minimize those Line Noise w/ a device I purchased, but
Nelson37 may be right about the grounding issue or else it's a motherboard
thing. As, I just can't see how others can have a clean capture from a
VCR or whatever, and I not.
Anyhows, the device does help minimize the noise almost to zero, but there
are times when I can see some. So, something is definately going on.
Also, when not using the device, on certain days, I can see HEAVYer noise
than on others. So, if its a grounding thing, why is it fluctuating?
Who knows! But, that's why I'm hesitant about the grounding causing it.
As, I've use my Power Pack w/ a 300 watt Inverter, and actually hooked up
my PC to it (though I left my Monitor and every thing else connected to the
AC) and still Line Noise (w/out my device)
Again, as to the device, it may be cleaning or filtering out the noise through
it's filtering or something, as when I turn on or off the bypass switch, noise
is present through captured file. So, I can seen both clean and noisey lines
in my capture when I press the bypass on and off while I capture to AVI.
Quite strange though, that this happens, and that also, the DC10 has NO noise
what-so-ever! another reason why I STILL like the DC10+ card. Only beaf
with the DC10 is the issue w/ frame drops. It seems to lock to the video's
sync or frame or something and if there is an error in one, a frame is dropped.
But, I could be wrong w/ this theory.

Also, (as I've ben playing around w/ my DV cam) when I connect my DV cam to
the card and power on the DV cam, I can see the noise too. Some days it's
heavy, and some days it light. I've even tried the DV cam w/ a battery.
No change! Noise is still there. hmmm.

Seems that the only way to get rid of the noise is to use the device. Well,
most of it anyways.

Note, I've used the fxVHS filter in vdub. It works ok to filter out the noise
as I have ben using this route all along, but I'm pretty tired of the LONG
encoding time, due to using it.

Have a good evening.
-vhelp

[bbb]

Vhelp,

It appears that I have inherited your old line noise problem!

A couple of weeks ago, I had purchased a Leadtek Winfast TV2000XP (BT878 Card) to try out the higher 720x480 resolution and its multiple codecs availability (including realtime MPEG2 encoding) compared to my DC10+ which can only go up to 640x480 and only use the built in MJPEG codec.

Everything installed easily and worked reliably including realtime MPEG2 encoding (which looked decent using 352x480 and 3000 kbits/s--no noticeable blocks). But when I started watching TV or capping off cable, I noticed a lot of noise that I never experienced with my DC10+ card. At first I tried to not to pay attention to the noise (since the noise appears worse in dark scenes and can almost be ignored in regular light scenes) and assumed it was my poor analog cable signal and the fact that I had split it twice, weakening the signal and introducing RF noise. But, when I tried capturing off a VCR (I know this is sounding familiar) from a clean recording (with a lot of dark scenes), I noticed a lot of background noise (high contrast, increased brightness).

I tried switching drivers from the the generic open source BT8X8 drivers to the newest Leadtek drivers but the noise was still present. I used different capture apps. I tried Dscaler (and was not impressed with the deinterlacing). I tried switching from YUV2 mode to RBG and back. I even tried wrapping my dongle in aluminum. But, I still could see the horrible line noise.

I tried capping the blue screen from the VCR (choosing Line1/Line2) (I remember downloading your blue screen test) and I could still see the horizontal line noise (same as yours). I tried capping from my DVD player using a S-Video cable and the noise was reduced by a significant margin BUT ... it was still visible in black scenes (e.g., dark interview scenes, fading to black and black background end credit scenes).

Very frustrated, I went back to capping with my DC10+ card and immediately, the video from my VCR cleared up ... it was like breathing in a fresh clean breeze after being kept a stuffy, slowly suffocating, stale-aired, dark and damp room.

Vhelp, thanks to your painful line noise ordeal as thoroughly detailed in this thread, I will not go on through further fruitless attempts to try to fix the line noise on my BT878 card. I will just RMA it and ask for a better shielded card and thicker dongle from Leadtek. If noise still appears with the new card, I will give away my BT878 card and stick with using the DC10+ for video caps.



But it does make me wonder, since you and I both experienced this line noise problem (and we both have a keen eye towards video quality), that how many others are experiencing this line noise and not even realizing it because they don't have a noiseless DC10+ card to compare with. After all, these cheap BT8X8/TV Tuner cards are probably the most widely used video capture devices around.

[vhelp]

hay bbb.. TGIF

Long time new see/hear.. he he...
Your post got me in the middle of eating here (Friday Pizza) 8) 8)

Talk about long posts too.. he he.. but, let me finish eating (and reading)
and I'll get back to ya. Just wanted for you to be aleret of my presense.

see ya in a bit.
-vhelp

[bbb]

Pizza on Friday, you very lucky ducky.

Yes, it's been a while. And now you have an exciting new avatar (Underdog? right?). Still making VCDs/SVCDs or did you move on to DVDR? I went from making mainly CVDs to mainly SVCDs and occasional *gasp* VCDs.

I just felt the need to add one more message (of my own line noise experience) to this thread so that others might start looking more closely at their own captured video before recommending a cheap TV Tuner card to others.

But I am kinda curious. What did you do with all your capture cards that had line noise? In the closet? On Ebay? Salvation army?

Also, do your current video captures look as good and as clean as DC10+ caps?

[vhelp]

bbb..
sorry for the delay.. had crash, and lost my place and things..

be right back..
-vhelp

[flaninacupboard]

yep, this "card noise" (as it isn't line noise!) caused me to junk my bt878 card and go buy a canopus ADVC-50 instead. i always thought my caps looked a little liney, and one day i hit the pause button on my laserdisc player, expecting to see a solid blue screen, but got a noisy fuzzy mess.
i never bothered to look into it, but one guess was that the tuner module on the card was producing noise.

[vhelp]

bbb..
.. .. you know it has to be long . . . . . .

First, i must warn you. I'm feeling a bit under the weather (since last night)

..But when I started watching TV or capping off cable, I noticed a lot of noise that I never experienced with my DC10+ card.

Surprise, Surprise.. you woke up !! (no effense) Unless these cards are WELL made,
you're asking for NOISE. Asking for it. I've fought the fight, wont the fight..
well, almost.. sort of..

But, if you really want to continue w/ analog cap device (nothing wrong, and I still
use mine) I would go with the WTVGO (WinTV GO) this card (non-radio version)
don't get the radio, else you'll get NOISE. will produce the least amount of NOISE.
At the very least, you can work with this card. Really. Oh, and this card will give
you the least amount of frameloss (capping un-compressed) Forget about HD space.
Just plain, forget about it. Go with a 120 gig, and you're set for life (almost)
I read somewhere's on one of these FORUMS (dvdrhelp or kvcd) that CompUSA has
the 120 gig for $99 (after rebate)) I would look into this if you have a small
one (hdrive that is)

I used different capture apps. I tried Dscaler (and was not impressed with the deinterlacing).

Yes, I agree. I have since, found an even BETTER de-interlacing method (for PURE
Interlace source only, all else require IVTC or jumping out your window ie, ST-NG)

I tried capping the blue screen from the VCR (choosing Line1/Line2) (I remember downloading your blue screen test) and I could still see the horizontal line noise (same as yours).

I KNEW IT !! thanks for being honest w/ me
hay bbb.. I'll just bet, that if/when you put this same "blue screen" w/ the
DC10+ that you will NOT see any Line NOISE !!
I said this before, "it is the card/device itself that is producing these Line NOISE"

... it was still visible in black scenes (e.g., dark interview scenes, fading to black and black background end credit scenes).

Yes, you'll still notice them in black/dark scenes, usually sort of like grey'ishy or
something like that.

But it does make me wonder, since you and I both experienced this line noise problem (and we both have a keen eye towards video quality), that how many others are experiencing this line noise and not even realizing it because they don't have a noiseless DC10+ card to compare with.(1) After all, these cheap BT8X8/TV Tuner cards are probably the most widely used video capture devices around.(2)

bbb.. (1) I said this before, somewhere's.. "they're all asleep".. "they're
ablivious to this Line NOISE issue" etc.
You know.. the only time when people realize it, is when more than one stands up
and shouts.. "Hay, wake up, and smell the coffee..!! !! !!" in other words,
"look closely at your capture card caps, and see.."
(2) this is my point above, all along !! Again, they're asleep.
But, I have to say, that you also have to facter in this one bit of "clue" that
might help to shed lite on your (1) and (2) statement.., that all those that have
and still do capture w/ any of these cards (except the DC10+ of course) have
probably, sometime down the line, in there encoding, they use a "filter" One
of those filters may have ben a smoother, or a denoise or used a combo of filters,
and as a result, hence, they never knew they had it to begin with !! !!

Very frustrated, I went back to capping with my DC10+ card and immediately, the video from my VCR cleared up ... it was like breathing in a fresh clean breeze after being kept a stuffy, slowly suffocating, stale-aired, dark and damp room.

bbb.. I know this feeling. I've ben their!
When I put back in my DC10+, I was truely content again !! pfew! "I missed my
DC10+" I'd say to myself !! So, I KNOW what you're talking about. I do.
VCR source is the worse to work with. The only way I was able to rid those
Line NOISE in them, was to use a good home made "filter chain" of mine. ..where
did I put it.. ?? hmmm..

Below, is a give or take (based on memory) (don't quote me please, as it may
have changed) I'm basing on memory, and mine is suffering from soem recent
purging..

Here is my NOISE scale (least to highest) [0-5]
* [0] DC10 (clean)
* [2] WTV (hauppauge wint tv [c]1996 - pci) (close to clean) different hardware setup
* [3] ATIRFP (rage fur pro - agp
* [3] ATIW (ati all in wonder)
* [4] ATW (ati-tv wonder pci)
* [5] PCPVR (i/o magic) - (noisy'est)

These cards, in my past experience, I have taken to friends houses w/ completely
different pc MB setups etc. They ALL produced this same NOISE, give or take a
little. So, you can see why I hesitated a bit from those that posted their
explanations etc. Plus, add to that fact, that even though those that posted
clearly blaimed my NOISE, was due to Line NOISE else where, i.e, CB, HAM Radio,
Police, Cars, reflections, grounding, ground loops, etc, etc. etc, etc. but that
despite all the above as reasons/causes for the NOISE, my DC10+ did not suffer from
it. Neither does my ADVC-100 !! Both these units are crystal clean !!
The bottom line is this.. IT's THE CARDS, THAT ARE THE CAUSE OF THE NOISE !!
Plain, un-adulterated fact !! It's the capture devices that you have to look into.
Now, you can probably minimize as much as possible, the NOISE but moving the
device in another slot, or trying your hand at shilding, call your cable company,
your electric company, talk to the police, and tell them to STOP TALKING, etc,
etc. but you'll still see that NOISE. I'm tired of it!! Beginner don't notice
this. Neither do those, that have not ben abrest of their cards/devices. I'm
no dummy. I know what's noise. I know when I see Lines.
Now, maybe their IS, a perfect MB and Capture card setup, that will not produce
any NOISE. But, from where I'm sitting, there isn't.

bbb.. sooner or later, you'll give in.. you will. well, unless $$$.$$ is
in your way.
I'm not sure how you feel about the ADVC-100. I don't want to bore you about
it, even though I did share my experience w/ you before (you had asked)
But, in the end, it had to be.. the ADVC-100. I was tired of the noise. The
best card that produced the littlest noise was my WTVGO (WinTV GO, pci)
However, I promise you.. once you go ADVC-100, you'll NEVER see any noise again!!!
If you're stipped for cash, do try the WTVGO card. And, D/L the hauppage vfw
drivers ONLY. Don't install ANY WDM drivers !! There is an order/sequence for
proper driver installation, and it start w/ your graphics card (GC) ..
IF you need help w/ the WTVGO card (if you get it) let me know, and I'll try
my best to help you out. Even if you want this card as an alternate, like I do,
in addition to your DC10+

Yes, it's been a while. And now you have an exciting new avatar (Underdog? right?). Still making VCDs/SVCDs or did you move on to DVDR? I went from making mainly CVDs to mainly SVCDs and occasional *gasp* VCDs.

he he.. this was my second choise ( mighty mouse was a fill-in til.. ) but I do have
a first, but it's B/W and I really wanted it to be Color. But.. I sort of like this
Underdog char. I think it fits me.. don't you think ??
hay, there's NOTHING wrong w/ still making VCD's !! Nothing !! They DO come out
great, if you are skilled. I'm SURE you are !! but many aren't, and have jump
"over" to something higher. They'll never have what YOU and I have (experience and
then some)

But I am kinda curious. What did you do with all your capture cards that had line noise? In the closet? On Ebay? Salvation army?

Are you CRAZY ??.. .. I have them ALL !! LOL he he.. he he.. you never know when
you may need them after all. I'm one that doesn't like to take chances (when I'm
in control) Well, anyays, I still have them all.. lets see.. the ATW and the ATIRFP
are in my main 1st pc and my WTVGO and DC10+ are in my 2nd pc (my capture unit)
along side my ADVC-100. No problems w/ that setup so far. But, I mainly use my
ADVC-100.

Also, do your current video captures look as good and as clean as DC10+ caps?

YES !! or better, even. !! I'm assuming you are refering to my ADVC-100 ??
Even though I'm still under W98 Gold, and FAT32 / 4gig limit, I have no problems
with ANY of my capture (firewire transfer) projects. since, I mainly do
Satellite projects, well, it's quite easy, w/ the commercials. I just stop at the
commercials, and restart again, incrementing the cap number ie., 100.01, 100.02
etc.. using DVIO.
Until I can find something similar to DVIO but w/ segmentation, I'll continue on
w/ this route (as stupid as it is) cause it works for me !
And, as far as I'm concirned, the WTVGO and my favorite, the DC10+ will STAY in
my capture setup.. especally the DC10+ because I went through a lot w/ it.

Pizza on Friday, you very lucky ducky.

Well, actually.. everyone should have some form of wind-down Mine is PiZZa !!
by the way, I pronouse it w/ the "ZZ" sound, not "tsa"
anyways, this as well as a quick browse through Wal-Mart / K-Mart, and I usually pick
up ONE or TWO DVD's, if they're under $12. Then, I go home and be happy
and eat my piZZa !!

Take it easy, and have a good evening/weekend.
-vhelp

[bbb]

But, if you really want to continue w/ analog cap device (nothing wrong, and I still use mine) I would go with the WTVGO (WinTV GO) this card (non-radio version) don't get the radio, else you'll get NOISE. will produce the least amount of NOISE.

Maybe I should try desoldering my tuner module to eliminate the source of the interference since I mainly use composite input for capturing. (looking at the careless burn mark on my index finger) Maybe not.

Go with a 120 gig, and you're set for life (almost)

I've got a 30 gig OS drive and a 80 gig capture drive. I thought it was enough storage 6 months ago but now I feel like I need at least another 200 gig drive.

(1) I said this before, somewhere's.. "they're all asleep".. "they're
ablivious to this Line NOISE issue" etc. ... all those that have
and still do capture w/ any of these cards (except the DC10+ of course) have probably, sometime down the line, in there encoding, they use a "filter" One of those filters may have ben a smoother, or a denoise or used a combo of filters, and as a result, hence, they never knew they had it to begin with !! !!

We must wake them up!

I actually did make a noise reduction VD filter chain for my BT878 card. It took 24 1/2 hours to process 1 hour of video into a new AVI file. The video was a low motion, fairly clean dark background (CSPAN Booknotes) interview tape which should not require all this lengthy filtering. Heck, even after all this filtering, my resulting new AVI looked only OK (it had looked unacceptably noisy before filtering).

bbb.. sooner or later, you'll give in.. you will. well, unless $$$.$$ is
in your way. I'm not sure how you feel about the ADVC-100. I don't want to bore you about it, even though I did share my experience w/ you before (you had asked) But, in the end, it had to be.. the ADVC-100. I was tired of the noise. The best card that produced the littlest noise was my WTVGO (WinTV GO, pci) However, I promise you.. once you go ADVC-100, you'll NEVER see any noise again!!!

No more tuner cards for me. Never ever ever.

Yes, I very much want to get my hands on a ADVC-100. I've been wanting to hold one every since I read the stellar reviews several months ago. It must feel wonderful and have so much peace of mind to own such a perfectly designed and high performance piece of computer hardware. I MUST GET ONE!

I'm just waiting for a good deal ... like a coupon or rebate to drop the price of the ADVC-100 closer to $200.

Even though I'm still under W98 Gold, and FAT32 / 4gig limit, I have no problems with ANY of my capture (firewire transfer) projects. since, I mainly do Satellite projects, well, it's quite easy, w/ the commercials. I just stop at the commercials, and restart again, incrementing the cap number ie., 100.01, 100.02 etc.. using DVIO. Until I can find something similar to DVIO but w/ segmentation, I'll continue on w/ this route (as stupid as it is) cause it works for me !

You really should try NTFS on WinXP one of these days (just for the NTFS). However, with XP you have to deal with the big hassles of Microsoft product activation (which feels soo wrong) ... which can be avoided with by using *special* versions of WinXP. I made the jump to XP NTFS a few months ago and I find the 1 AVI file per capture very convenient. When I turn off all the graphical eye candy of WinXP, it looks and runs pretty lean. If only Win98 supported full NTFS, I would have stayed with Win98 but I really needed and now cannot part with NTFS's large (>4 gig) file format capability.

I would love to hear more about your ADVC-100 captures and experience. Is DVIO the only capture application for the ADVC-100? Or is it the best app for DV? Or is it the only free app? I have never used firewire video transfers so I'm not sure how it all works.

I sort of like this Underdog char. I think it fits me.. don't you think ??

From what I read, Underdog seems like a very rare and admirable individual--modest yet helps those in need--if what I read is accurate, then Underdog fits you well. I actually never had the chance to experience Underdog cartoons (although I did watch a lot of cartoons as a youth ... they never showed Underdog in my area or I would have remembered). A few weeks ago, I spoke with a friend who brought up the subject of cartoons and Underdog. My friend had fond memories of Underdog even though it was somewhat politically not correct these days. Anyway, it got me somewhat curious since I'm naturally attracted to nonpolitically correct subjects. But, i couldn't find any video clips of Underdog on the internet (just tried a Google search today) and I'm currently out of the P2P scene (since If I do I will end up filling my capture drive with wierd downloads and slow down my big VHS archival project).

As a suggestion for your next demonstration clip, maybe you can capture some Underdog clips to put on your website. It's been a while since I've checked out your video clips.

Vhelp, Enjoy your Friday night and your PiZZa! :P