Line Noise - mostly from VCR sources...not quite solved yet.

[vhelp]

bbb,

Sorry, if I'm not fast enough for you here. I have many other things
that I'm doing and juggling around BOTH my work area, plus other house
hold duties, and other things. I don't like rushing into too many
things at once

By the way. I finally found my trusty old DC10+ card. I had
to tare through a number of things to get to it.
I'm going to try some simple captures w/ it via VCRs and see if I
notice any Line Noise. Now, if I do, then what???

I'm trying to locate my CD driver disk, but I can't find it. Now,
I'm looking for some URL address to search through to find a D/L of
drivers for the DC10+.

-vhelp

[Allan55]

Hi,

I poster this elsewhere, it might help here.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107517

Allan

[bbb]

I have a copy. But no server.

I can do snail mail.

[vhelp]

Well, I was finally able to locate my drivers.

A word to warning. . .
* don't D/L any so called, FULL studio apps, cause they will ask for your
serial number. I could NOT find mine, as mine was still on the reg card,
and who knows where I left it!!
* However, I was able to install my CD-ROM disk drivers and apps, but,
it to, asked me for my Serial number. Darnit!! didn't have it. But,
luckely, I remember they have a "generic" serial number for those who
had bad serials. My cd-rom was listed, so I tried the generic no and it
worked!!

Every thing is installed, but I still suffer those enoying anamilies... picture
scrambling, changing colors, or no picture at all, etc., etc.
And, sometimes I have to restart my pc cause the DC10+ isn't sensed.

Now I remember why I gave up on it! he, he... cause it was just too unstable!

So, I will have to work on the DC10+ for a while longer and see if I can
remember what I've done in the past to eliviate it. lets see, where's all
my notes I scribbled on stickies. Good thing I don't throw those out. I
always stuffed them in a draw. Just have to search through it.

One thing I gotta hand it to it, is the DC10+ sure does have a nice
quality looking video after capture, anyways. . .

I will give the DC10+ a good run w/ my VCRs and test weather or not
it produces the same dreadful Line Noise as my ATW and WTGO cards
produce!
I will keep you all posted. Heck, if I get a decent looking video (or better)
from my DC10+, I'll post a sample clip for you all to see

-vhelp

[vhelp]

Morning all.

I need some assistance in locating the AVI_IO app that was put out some
time ago. At least I thought I had it, way back in my DC10+ days.
But I can't seem to find any of my old apps I used in conjunction with
the DC10+ card.
I'm trying to use it w/out Studio app. I remember using such an app (or
similar) but. . . anyways.

So, does anyone know of a LINK to jump to that houses this app??
and no e-mails please.
I'm currently seeking Google.com but am not having any luck so far.

Oh, so far, every look very good - don't want to bust open w/ my results
just yet, he, he...

Thank you.
-vhelp

[bbb]

Vhelp,

This following files will get your Studio working. The 1.06 update includes code by the AVI_IO author--it will split files into 2 Gig segments. The fast processor patch will get rid of the unstable, green, grey, sometimes multicolored picture in the capture window.

1.06 upgrade:
ftp://ftp.pinnaclesys.de/driver/pc/sdc10plus/sdcv106.exe

Fast Processor Patch download:
ftp://ftp.pinnaclesys.de/driver/pc/sdc10plus/dc10.reg

[vhelp]

Thought I'd give an update on progress.

Have just started to develop BAD sectors!!!!!!!!!!
What the F"""!!

Well, anyways, since my DOS scandisk kicked in, I'm just letting it fix
whatever BAD sectors it finds. Its VERY slow, even though I only have
a partition of 1g in size, just to hold my Windows 98, so that if
their sould be a problem like shutting off pc or crashing out, when it
kicks back into windows, scandisk is run, and runs very quickly, less
than a minute vs. if I used the whold 60gig HD, it would have taken
like 15 minutes. And, after many crashes, you don't want to wait 15
minutes every time. And, let me tell you. I have many crashes! So,
the 1gig setup works perfectly. Anyways.
.
.
Well, scandisk finally finished, after 5 minutes (thats a long time for
a 1gig)
Looks like I'm back in business. ...we'll see.

bbb,
just saw you post, when i was about to post also. Will check out those
link you posted Tanx.

My Line Noise issues is shorely going a long way!

-vhelp

[vhelp]

bbb,
>> This following files will get your Studio working. The 1.06 update includes
>> code by the AVI_IO author--it will split files into 2 Gig segments. The fast
>> processor patch will get rid of the unstable, green, grey, sometimes multicolored
>> picture in the capture window.
This is exactly whta I had suffer in, back in my 233 MMX cpu days, but
put up with it, by rebooting and only starting up Studio or AVI_IO. It worked
for me then. Now, I'm growing tired. He, he...
However, I still have my notes from my earlier days

Sorry if I sound rusty in the DC10+ area. I've ben away a long time
from it.
I will try the patch and update and see if that resolves my current issues I
stated earlier here.

-vhelp

[bbb]

For heavens sake vhelp, replace that harddrive. It sounds like it's on it's last legs. Let it rest in peace.

[vhelp]

bbb,

Nah!
To me, it's a brand new 60gig I bought a few months or so ago!

I have it partitioned to 3 drive:
* C: as 1gig for OS only
* D: as 4gig for software and apps
* E: as 55gug for my captures

When I use my ATW or WTGO via AVI_IO or VDUB, I have no issues,
and can capture at 720x480 w/ minimal frame drops ie, 10/frames/hr.

The DC10+ on this MB/CPU setup is new to me, as I'm used to
my old 233 MMX days, where I worked out all the bugs/kinks,
well, most of them.

Ok, as for my 60gig (3 partions) it seems to be holding up fine. I have
hardwood floors, and I may have stomped a little too hard this morning,
while things were going on on my 2nd pc (HD'wise)
So, I have to excercise caution nearby my PC!! ...or else!!!

But, so far, I don't like how my DC10+ is capturing via framedrops!
It's dropped 12 in the last 7 minutes. For this PC speed, it's NOT
what I'd of expected!!
I think, that after I installed the reg. patch, it started dropping frames like
crazy, but before the patch, it was ZERO!!!.
So, my guess, is the I can't use the .reg patch.
Currently, I''m capping at 640x480 at 3000 bits, as anything lower, and
quality drops a tad. And, for VHS, every number counts.
And, no, the sudden drops in frames is not due to the VHS.

-vhelp

[bbb]

...

[vhelp]

Just a stupid question, in hopes to fix my VHS capturing using the
DC10+ card. . .

My MotherBoard is an ECS-K7S5A I thought they don't use the
4in1 via drivers??

-vhelp

[bbb]

Scratch that. Don't install Via4in1.

[bbb]

Check your harddrive capture speed, if it's slower than 20 Meg/s and your capture partition is empty, you might need to install your IDE drivers and make sure siside.exe is running while you capture.

Also, recheck your BIOs to make sure all your drives have UDMA enabled.

Here's AVI_IO trial:
http://www.nct.ch/multimedia/avi_io/avi_io_trial.zip

[vhelp]

bbb,

Just got over an ordeal, tanx in part to your link to 4in1, he, he...
Skinny: when ever I delete something, I Shift+Del, but somehow, I
Shift+Enter, but since my right Shift key is faulty, it didn't work
and I ended up launching your the file I D/L'd via your link.
All caos broke look and I lost my HDs and mostly CD-ROMs etc.
In short, I ended up having to re-install Windows 98, and everything
was once again, hunky-dory!

Anyways, in refernce to your avi_io link, is that the one that was
desinged for the DC10+?? I have plenty of dif. ver. AVI_IO's
laying around. The problem I am having w/ it is in working properly.
I'm assuming that it's because those versions weren't ment for the
DC10+. Using the versions I am currently testing, sometimes,
video is captured, other times, it does nothing. etc.

I will give that version a try though (via your link) 8)
Thanks.

-vhelp

[bbb]

Sorry about that.

At least you got a clean Windows 98 folder now.

The AVI_IO trial (from the official site) should work with the DC10+--don't know how long is the capture trial limit though. I spoke with Markus Zing and he doesn't mention anything about a special version for the DC10+, he just recommended that I download his trial version for testing.

I only used AVI_IO to capture just just one time and it worked for a short capture. Currently, I use Studio 7 which works well with the latest patch.

Just remember to use Detect signaldrop after #of drops: 3.

[MonsterMike]

I have a Sharp VCR as well and here's a suggestion

Try turning S. Picture OFF

I know that may sound a bit stupid but everything is worth a try.

[vhelp]

MonsterMike,

thanks for the suggestion. actually, I've already gone that route.
I'm now on route w/ my JVC SVHS. I've ben doing multiple tests w/ the
S-Video. vs. Composite (RCA) So far, the quality is the same or slitely
better. And, so far, I'm NOW liking the quality of the JVC SVHS unit w/
the S-Video. I admit, I'm using a rather lengthy S-Vid cable 25 feet, but
it's only temporary, so I don't know how much a difference it would make
on the final avi qulaity, but i'm not testing this out at the moment.

-vhelp

[dezine]

It could be the VCR's. Honestly and as strange as that sounds it could even be all 3. Most consumer VHS players are not good enough to use with DV especially if they are older or aren't even SVHS quality.
I had tried 4 different VCR's and had similar problems thet you are describing as well as fuzzyness around edges.
So I took someones advice and finally decided to go out and purchase a Proffesional quality VCR Player (JVC VS30U; has both SVHS and Mini DV decks in it as well as TBC (Time Base Converter) firewire etc.), and I must say I have never been happier.
Not only are the lines gone but I also immediately got crisp lines and detail that I wasn't able to get in any of my other captures.
It was pricy at about $1200, but much less expensive than $13,000 decks. I decided to get this because I do alot of VHS captures and then author to DVD.
I know that this sounds extreme for what you might be using your VHS for. But it worked great for me.
You may want to look at stand alone TBC units intead which will help you get a clearer signal as well as help with any color or audio problems you may be having as well.

I hope this helps somewhat.

Dezine (Michael)

[tomreedtoon]

Wait a second. You did say you were capturing from commercially made tapes? Could this be Macrovision messing up the video? Do you get the same interference with video you've shot yourself on a camcorder, or clean video recorded from an off-air signal or a standard broadcast?

If your own recordings look clean, and it's only the commercial stuff, you've got Macrovision problems. The only solution is to somehow fix the sync pulses in the video from the recorder. I've never tried the "Macrovision removers" sold in video stores, so I can't testify how they work. I work in a TV station, and a $40,000 frame synchronizer will do the job, but that's obviously out for anyone under Donald Trump's income level.

Another thing to eliminate: is this problem something you've always had, or is this something that's just happened recently? Is there something you've added recently that seems to make the problem worse?

(And a little electronic translation note for Americans: "earths" means "ground" and "mains" means "line"/"power line".)

[vhelp]

UPDATE.

Ok, here is my findings so far w/ the DC10+ card.
No Noise!! Asside from the framedrops, the quality of this cards'
Noise level is zero. I can't beleive all this time, I've ben using
two Noisy capture cards, ATW and WTVGO. It's almost unbelievable
how smooth and clean that the DC10+ card is.

Did I resolve the Line Nose issue? No. But then, yes too.
No, because I could not rid it from the ATW and WTVGO cards. There
was nothing I could do. These cards are just plain Noisy.
On the other and, I can capture at 720x480 and have minimum frame
drops. Much less drops than the DC10+. ie, if I press pause on
the VCR, using my ATW or WTVGO cards, I wont drop any frames, but if I do
the same but this time, w/ a DC10+, I'll drop hundreds!!
Now, I don't know if the DC10+ is trying to LOCK into the sync
or something w/ the VIDEO but somehow, it must be glueing itself to the
VCR during captures.

I will obvisouly need to do some home work on the frame drops issue
now. ...Looking at my system, bios, hd, apps, hidden apps, timing settings
as well as other varous settings from every outlet I can find.
But, now that I know that it's the ATW and WTVGO cards, I will be
searching for a new capture card to replace those two. Somehow, I don't
think that the DC10+ will cut it, being that it drops way too many
frames. And, on top of that, the encodes SHOW the frame drop by jerking
during the missing frame. You notice that right away. But, when I used
the ATW or the WTVGO cards and had a few frame drops, it never jerked
during those lost frames! The video (MPEG) was smooth.
However, I'll play around with the DC10+ for a while longer, in
hopes that I find some solutions to the issues at hand.
Asside from that, the DC10+ is a great card. Mine is about two
years old. So, newer ones may not have the same issues I have on my
older one, plus the softare patches, etc. that have ben out. I will have
to try my hand at a few tests.

Another issue in addition to the Line Noise was with the majority
of store bought VHS movies that have macrovisoin on them. All my captures
with the ATW and WTVGO cards would show a hint of these MV green or
yellow lines under certain scenes. I noticed this from time to time.
Even when I captured from my Apex AD-1500 (w/out MV) it would show a few
of these MV lines in green like stripes. And, if you used certain kinds
of combo of filters to help clean up the video source (especially VHS)
it would highlight some MV lines. But, the DC10+ doesn't show a
morsal of MV. So, that's another plus.

VCR captures of store bought VHS movie - quality
With the DC10+ card, you can't be the quality. At least not
vs. the ATW or WTVGO cards. Anyhow, this card will virtually duplicate
the VHS in quality (if you are an experienced encoder) I made several
samples of various Movies, and burned to CD. When I played the samples
on my Apex AD-1500, and watched on my 13" TV, I was very impressed.

Line Noise - Solution Solved
------------------------------------
So, basically, what I have found out through my trials and tribulations,
the reason for the the noise wasn't due to my Electrical outlets or bad
grounding or shielding!
The cause was, NO CAUSE!! The capture cards were just plain noisy. That
is the answer. Again, the capture cards (ATW and WTVGO) are noisy cards.
They produce black lines (though sometimes white, depending on VCR)
and streak accross the screen left to right and have an up and/or downward
motion, but mostly sort of scattery looking. From a distance of 5 feet or
more, you probably wont notice it, but up close and you can see them.
This as a dramatic affect on MPEG encoding quality and bitrate level.
The less noise, the lower your bitrate, and also, the less artifacts in
your final encodes.

I have just a few more tests to run between that ATW vs. WTVGO vs. DC10+
VCRs, cables etc. but, other than that, the problem seems to have ben solved!
I'll be hunting for a new set of capture cards - but, w/out noise!
I may revise some parts of this post if I feel it requires it.

-vhelp

[kwag]

That's one reason I got rid of my ATI card. As I posted way earlier, I had noise on my ATI, and when I changed it for the WinTV GO, noise gone!
Apparently the shielding on the ATI cards is not very good. Even though it uses the same chip set as the WinTV ( BT-878 )

-kwag

[vhelp]

kwag,

one thing I don't get is the shielding thing you and others here have
mentioned. Ok. this is how I see the shielding thing. I have the ATW
and the WTVGO (wintv go) they both have these metal like foil encasing
some electronics right?
So, if this metal casing is the shielding, and the casue in some cap card
quality issues, then why is it that BOTH the ATW (ati-tv wonder) and the
WTVGO cards suffer the noise, while the DC10+ does not, AND
add to that, that the DC10+ doesn't have this casing of electronics?

But, in any case, the noise was from both the ATW and WTVGO cards.
If there is something I'm missing in the shielding, then please explaine.
Cause, to me, getting another WTVGO card or ATW 4 that matter, would
be a waist, given they both have this same casing.

-vhelp.

[kwag]

kwag,

one thing I don't get is the shielding thing you and others here have
mentioned. Ok. this is how I see the shielding thing. I have the ATW
and the WTVGO (wintv go) they both have these metal like foil encasing
some electronics right?
So, if this metal casing is the shielding, and the casue in some cap card
quality issues, then why is it that BOTH the ATW (ati-tv wonder) and the
WTVGO cards suffer the noise, while the DC10+ does not, AND
add to that, that the DC10+ doesn't have this casing of electronics?

But, in any case, the noise was from both the ATW and WTVGO cards.
If there is something I'm missing in the shielding, then please explaine.
Cause, to me, getting another WTVGO card or ATW 4 that matter, would
be a waist, given they both have this same casing.

-vhelp.

There's one thing you have to consider vhelp, and that's the amount or RFI ( Radio Frequency Interference ) generated by your motherboard. Remember, you have a capture board INSIDE a PC housing, which is a very high noise source. In my PC, the ATI exibits a very high noise on the captured AVI's, but with the WinTV GO, it doesn't. Maybe even changing your capture board from one PCI slot to another one, lowers your noise figure.
It also depends on the shielding design ( ground paths, pc board copper paths, etc ) on each board. It may look physically similar, but electrically, it's not

-kwag

[vhelp]

NEW UPDATE:

I've just struck gold. I FINALLY got my I/O Magic's PC PVR to work under
Windows 98. Hurray for me. BUT, now comes the testing part for Line Noise.

Ok, so far, I've done a few VHS captures and yes, this cars also suffers Line Noise
issues!! But, it's very minimum. You can see the black lines in the video window
vs. the DC10+'s window and to note, the DC10+ has NO lines.
But, the other issues I have with the DC10+ is the color for one. That's
a major issue! I've message around w/ it to some extent and have gotten some
decent looking encodes, but it seems that almost every VHS video will have to be
adjusted every time I capture from this card. So, more testing will have to be
done.
But, for now, since I have the PC PVR working, I'm going to consintrate on it for
a while. I need a change of scenery.

Specs of I/O Magic's PC PVR card:
----------------------------------------
* can capture at 720x480 (any codec or plain AVI)
* has Composite (RCA) and S-Video connections
* no color issues - is perfect, matches source!
* Costs $39 at compusa (6 months ago)
* minimal Line Noise - not as bad as my ATW and WTVGO

So, the Line Noise saga continues. . .

-vhelp

[bbb]

What's wrong with your DC10+'s color? Post a sample.

[vhelp]

bbb,

It's pretty bad.
I've never ben able to match it against all my other capture cards colors.
Its like turning up the briteness while turning down the contrast, and you
get sort of a dull grayish, hence the color blends dullness or something.
I can't really explain it though.

I just got finished doing some messing w/ the PCPVR and quality of color
is excellent. It matches the source's color. But, the DC10+ doesn't!!

-vhelp

[bbb]

Maybe you need to install a monitor profile.

My DC10+ captures look dark on my monitor.

But instead of calibrating the video, I just encode it and it looks fine on a standalone dvd player.

[vhelp]

bbb,

for example, do you have to adjust the colors for VHS or Satalite
etc. or do you leave the color setting alone in DC10+ ? ?

I shouldn't have to mess with the color what-so-ever! As in my ATW,
WTVGO, and now, PCPVR. I don't have to mess w/ color at all on these
cards, but w/ the DC10+ I have to. I MUST! But, even when I
do, the colors are still bad. And, I have to adjust color for EVERY
source, ie, VHS tapes. Again, on all the other carsds, I don't have to,
and DONT!! I spent the weekend messing w/ the DC10+'s
color, and still haven't gotten it nailed down - not matching the color
as all my other cards. No matter how much I mess w/ the contrast
or briteness or hue, or saturation, etc. It just will not match anywheres
near the source! No card should have to be adjusted unless the source
was bad to begin with. And, since my source are store bought VHS
tapes, there's no need to adjust ANY of the color levels.

-vhelp

[bbb]

I capture with AGC checked (I think it's the default option in the Studio DC10Plus Video Input menu option).

I leave everything else alone--every setting in default setting. My caps are mainly from VHS sources (using A/V cables) and sometimes from a DVD player (using S-Video cables).

My capture colors looks pretty accurate (blacks are black and no wierd hues) when used on a dvd player--only a slight loss in saturation--probably has to do with my use of blend deinterlacing.