Line Noise - mostly from VCR sources...not quite solved yet.

[kwag]

vhelp,
I think you have either a grounding problem, or a bad ( cheap un-shielded ) VCR. Can you borrow another VCR to make a test?

-kwag

[vhelp]

kwag,

I've ehausted myself, w/ moving my Sharp, my Sony, and now, my JVC
VCRs to my 2nd pc to test them all out. They all produce the same
results.

This is really getting to me. I've paid no attention to this for months on
end, till now. I've tried other capture cards to. They all seem to be
exhibiting this same phenominon of Line Noise or black bars.

I'm just now looking at robo's suggestion on the refresh rate thing.
I'll keep on trying. But, I'm growing tired of having to wait for a 3 minute
clip to take 1:31 minutes to encode! PFewww!! for a 3 minute, just to
get great results. Time to make a change, hence this thread.

I'll keep at it though. Cause there has to be a cause and an answer.

Thank you all for your input.
-vhlep

[ROBO1964]

You don't live near any high tension wires do you?

[bbb]

Another Diagnostic Test:
Connect your VCR to your TV. Adjust sharpness (make sharper) if necessary. Can you see the black lines or any other distortion when watching VHS tapes? Can you see black lines when watching TV channels using the VCR?

[loriandrick]

do you have a baby monitor. could cause some interference if close by

[kwag]

Here vhelp,
This will solve all your problems
http://www.evaluationengineering.com/archive/articles/0401emc.htm

-kwag

[ROBO1964]

LOL....well that would solve his problem.

[vhelp]

1,
well, I've tried the refresh thing changed form optimal to
75hz to other numbers but nothing. Still the same.

2,
I've managed to hook up both my Sony and Sharp VCRs via a switch
box so that I can get a better handle of switching/testing for each one.
I got tired of pulling plugs out and reinserting them. Anyways, I tested,
and both have not changed in quality, so just in case you think, it's not
the switch box I have connected now. So, I'm going to keep the
box interconnected between each VCRs. It's way much better to just
flip a switch on each one to test noise level.

3,
ok, Now, I'm going to try set the speed on my Motherboard to something
lower. Currently, I have set to 133/133 I have two other combos to try.
It could end up being the motheboard (MB) and maybe it's the chips that
are causing the noise. If it turns out to be the MB's, then at least I will
know what to do next. . . hunt for a new MB. But, until I test it, even the
slitest change could mean MB bla, bla, bla.

4,
I did find something interesting though. I did records of the 2002 Olympics
and tapes and when I played them, they sort of came out better than
those store bought movies. . .hmmmm! Oh, and they also exhibited less
Line Noise too. . .hmmm! However, that tape, though tested only
on the Sharp brand, was recorded from my JVC svhs unit, in ep mode,
if I remember correctly. But, i'll have to double check it.

5,
I find it very interesting that my Satalite recording came out a little bit
better quality, then the store bought movies I buy. I will have to test this
some more, by using my Apex AD-1500 at the testeree, and put a DVD
in and record it to VHS, in standard SP mode format and see if quality is
different. I could just be wishing on nothing. Or, I could be on to
something - Anyways. . .

Well, I'm off to more testing.
-vhelp

[bbb]

Try to pin down the source: external interference (rf interference, poorly shielded wires, cable/satellite connection contains interference) or internal interference (poorly shielded capture card, flaky drivers, etc).

That's why you should test your VCR connected to your TV. Check the blue screen again and check your recordings. Look closely and carefully for the black lines. If none appear then the problem is probably your system or capture card.

[vhelp]

bbb,

I have so far, narrowed it down to two things (I think)

1, my capture card (WTGO) but only problem is, that I have the same
symtoms weather I use the ATW, or the WTGO card.

2, its ALL my VCRs, as when I first setup my capture app, AVI_IO,
and proceed to turn on VCR, I notice how clean the blue screen is.
But, as soon as the VCR kicks in, those nasty lines show up.

Also, I've noticed that shen I switch to my Sharp VCR, the lines
are black like.
But, when I switch to my Sony VCR, the lines are more on the white side!

So, I'm a bit stumped.

As far as the sharpness goes, my TV looks great! Yes, it's a 13", but
the quality of my store bought movies are great looking on it. No lines.
So, it must be the VCRs, but only during tape play. As, when I turn
on the tuner part, lines disapear. Somehow, the signal source gets
dirty I think. But, this happens on ALL my VCRs which is why
it's driving me crazy.

bbb, hope you have D/L'd my sample AVI file (above), only 3mb. At least to
get a look at how my VHS source is like during capturing. If you, or
anyone else get this same thing, then maybe it's normal w/ all VCRs,
and their's nothing I or you or anyone else can do about it.

Thanks for your input.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

I used to have VCR that made interference patterns on the TV but since it does it on all VCR's on all computers and all video card with various video tapes that basically leaves only a few options.

1. A device you neglected to mention like a geo static generator next to your PC.

2. Bad grounding in your house.

3. Some external signal like a Ham Radio operator nearby.

[bbb]

Vhelp,

I downloaded your blue screen clip. I have a few theories regarding the source of the line noise but I need to know a few things:

Did you record the blue screen onto VHS tape, played the tape, and captured it to your capture card?

Or was that just your VCR's blue signal (not playing any tapes) and you captured it to your capture card?

Finally, if you watch the blue signal on your TV, is there line noise on your TV?


Theory 1:
It could be your tapes. If you have a SVHS VCR to do all your recordings, you need special SVHS type tapes to record cleanly/sharply.
Normal VHS tapes are supposed to look inferior when recorded on a SVHS player. But there is a trick where you can drill a hole somewhere on a normal VHS tape to make the normal VHS tape into a SVHS tape. I don't and never owned a SVHS VCR but I've heard of these issues regarding SVHS VCRs.

Theory 2:
Some normal VHS VCRs have pseudo-playback of recorded SVHS tapes. The quality is not supposed to be as sharp or as good as being played in the SVHS VCR--resolution is reduced creating some artifacts.

[vhelp]

Evening all.

robo1964,
as for 1, I have no such device or toy.

as for 2, this could be something to look into, but I don't know
much about HOW to check for bad grounding in my house/apt.
* How would I go about checking such, if its something I can do??

as for 3, no. I'd sure know about this one. As, I used to have
a HAM in the next room to me some 15 years ago. . .breaker, brek..
breker, breaker, 10-9, "that's a good buddy"... all night till
3 A.M. or 4'rish, and it used to filter right into my TV and Radio.

I can say, that #1 and #3 are definately not it.


bbb,
>> Did you record the blue screen onto VHS tape, played the tape,
>> and captured it to your capture card?
Definately not!
My setup is like this.
* 4 switch box, and connected to this box are:
* 2 VCRs (at the moment) (sony and sharp)
* 1 DVD player (apex ad-1500)
Ok, now, whenever I want to capture anything, I
press the button number associated w/ the device, ie Sharp VCR.
Then, I press power on of the unit (sharp vcr) .
In my capture app (avi_io) I can see the preview or overlay,
whichever one I'm viewing, doesn't matter just yet.
Now, since the VCR is on, it is transmitting a signal. This stale
or whatever you call it, is a blue screen.
So, what I did was just record it.
Now, when I power off the VCR, and look at the blue screen,
I can see when those lines dissapear, and also, that the blue
screen get a little brighter, but the screen is clear of ANY
Line Noise!! It's only when I power one any devices.
Oh, just found out that my DVD player is showing the same symtoms
as well. Sheesh! So, it's doesn't really matter if it's the
VCRs or DVD player, or Satalite for that matter, but the VHS is
more noticable.

Please forget about it being the box, as I only just hooked up the
box, long after the Line Noise issue.

>> Or was that just your VCR's blue signal (not playing any tapes)
>> and you captured it to your capture card?
Correct. the tape was not engaged. I only powered on the VCR.
As soon as I power it on, the Noise begins. As soon as I power
off, the noise is gone! Same for DVD player, but not as noticable.

>> Finally, if you watch the blue signal on your TV, is there line >> noise on your TV?
* I tried this, but the picture crystle clean!
* when I play a tape, tape is cristle clean, no Line Noise.
But, put the RCA plug back into the capture card, and WAM!! Lines
are back!

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

Well the only way to check the electrical would be to have an electrician come and check it unless someone knows a way. I imagine there is some way to measure that.

Another idea is your power might be dirty. Do you run any of your stuff off a UPS power supply or other clkean source.

Because it happens with so many thing with so many sources "I think" we can rule out hardware issues or problems. I must be something more fundamental that can affect everything.

The power source nust be in some way the source as what else could it be?

[kwag]

But, put the RCA plug back into the capture card, and WAM!! Lines
are back!

-vhelp

And that's exactly where your problem is. Your noise is traveling from your your PC ( via capture card connector ) into your VCR. Is your PC and VCR connected to the same power outlet? If not, connect them on the same outlet, so that there is no difference of ground potential from your PC to the VCR.

-kwag

[vhelp]

evening kwag,

I'm going to try your suggestion.

Somehome, I have SOOO many wire, cris-crissed all over the place.
I have 2 prongs, and 3 prongs inter-connected to 6' and 9' and
12' electric cords, as well as some of them inter-connected to
6 outlet, 2 prong power strips, and 3 outlet 3 prong power strips,
and vs. versa inter-connected to each other.

All, in the name of getting some video.
* 13" tv
* 1st cpu pc
* 15" monitor
* satalite rec'vr
* JVC svhs VCR
* sony VCR
* Sharp VCR
* #1, DVD player, Apex ad-1500
* #2, DVD player, Apex ad-1500
* fan #1
* fan #2
* AC unit
* 2nd cpu PC
* 15" monitor
* lamp
* 5gal fish tank
* 5gal fish tank filter system
* 5gal fish tank lamp
* 5gal fish tank bubler
* 600 watt Microwave
* 20W ? CD/radio player

I think that covers it. I think!
Oh, yes, ...
* an multi AC adapter

I think I got every thing. I think! he, he... 8)

-vhelp

[kwag]

* 5gal fish tank
* 5gal fish tank filter system
* 5gal fish tank lamp
* 5gal fish tank bubler

YES YES, that's it, the fish tank! :P
Do you have an Electric Eel, or two, in your tank

-kwag

[vhelp]

evening kwag,

Nah, just a bottom scrubber, and a floater. Oh, the floater is
the dead fish I found this yesterday morning. Just haven't found
the time, nor the heart to tell the Husband what happend.

he, he... ...

seriously though, the bublblr and air pump are not connected.
only the lamp and the filter system (by whisper) and lamp is off
but I'm about to turn it on now, since its dark out.

Ok, I've just tried your idea, and.. ..
be right back!

-vhelp

[vhelp]

Ok, at first, I almost convenst myself that I solved the noies,
but I must confess, it's still their.

* I hooked up my DV cam, and poped in a miniDV tape of an Oven
Fresh music video clip, as the OF has a sort of cartoon to it,
and you can see any noise. Yes, you can, but the noise level is
much lesser, same w/ my Satalite.

* When I press the stop button on my DV cam, and the blue screen
displays w/ the miniDV tape cartoon, you can see the noise as in
the VCRs as well.

This is really itching me. It's not as bad as the VCRs, but still
noticeable, and that means that it's not wonder why my Satalite
encodes were on the slitely high side, thanks in part of the
noise. It's amazing how TMPG's encoder (or any encoder for that
matter) can pick up these noise, and raise your bitrate to
compensate.

I wish I could get my I/O Magics' PC PVR capture card working so
that I can test IT out and see if it's a matter of capture card causing
the noise or not. So far, NO ONE here knows how I can get it to
work under Windows 98. Sorry, but it's IMPOSSIBLE!!. In any
case, any suggestoins?

I'm stumped at the moment.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

I admit I am grasping at straws here but have you tried a different cable? Maybe one with more shielding?

[Greyhair]

-vhelp[/quote]

And that's exactly where your problem is. Your noise is traveling from your your PC ( via capture card connector ) into your VCR. Is your PC and VCR connected to the same power outlet? If not, connect them on the same outlet, so that there is no difference of ground potential from your PC to the VCR.

-kwag[/quote]

Didn't someone say this a page or two back?

If it got better, you might be on the right track. Ever consider unplugging everything and starting over, one device at a time, testing in between each plug-in? You may have multiple problems, with all those devices, cables and plugs.

[vhelp]

>> I admit I am grasping at straws here but have you tried a
>> different cable? Maybe one with more shielding?
Yes, I have. In fact, I ended up trying my Monster Gold shielded
cables, the ones w/ oxigen or something other. And, yes, its
still contributing the noise.

Grayhair,
Yes, I did do this (to some extent) yesterday and again, today,
when I walked in the door, since I didn't have any fans, or pc's
running, I would flip my circute breaker to ALL OFF. and one by
one, try each one. Even had ALL OFF except my dinning area,
where I have my PCs, one on each other side.

However, the GROUNDing part confuses me.
Ok, my understanding is this, if there is a 3 prong, the that
3rd (or center) prong is the ground. But, maybe you're talking
about a different ground alltogether? Anyways, here are my
prong layout (breafly)

* Monitor 3, - - (plugged into a 2, to a 12' 2 prong ext)
* cpu, 3 - - (plugged into a 2, to a 12' 2 prong ext)
* VCR - sharp, 2
* VCR - sony, 2
* dvd player, 2
* 12', 2 ext
* someone pluged or stuffed paint in the Wall's 3rd hole, so
I'm using the 12' ext w/out any 3rd. But I was told that it
was ok use do this - hadn't had any fires or overloads yet!
Well, every so often, my water heater's breaker goes off, and
when I dim the dinning rooms' lights, boy, can you see a light
flash or arck from the refregerators Motor, every time it kicks
in or shuts off. But, other than that, everything is fine.
Oh, my whole apt is electric, not gas or oil, just electric.

-vhelp

[kwag]

-vhelp

And that's exactly where your problem is. Your noise is traveling from your your PC ( via capture card connector ) into your VCR. Is your PC and VCR connected to the same power outlet? If not, connect them on the same outlet, so that there is no difference of ground potential from your PC to the VCR.

-kwag

Didn't someone say this a page or two back?

Yes, you did! . Just read that post now

-kwag

[ROBO1964]

Yes the 3rd prong is the ground but that doesn't mean the electical system is set up with a proper ground.

BUT, this cable thing concerns me as that indicates something else possibly.

Tell you what:

Turn the VCR and make sure picture is perfect then plug cable in but not to PC. If get interference then its working like an antenna and its an oustseid source. If it only happens when you pklug other end to PC then it gas to be the card not beiong properly shielded but the only wat to be sure would be to exchange the card with a different type and see if it does it. If yes then it muct be the grounding or Aliens have taken over your VCR as their base of operations for world domination.

[bbb]

An interesting read from the FCC:

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/interference.html

[vhelp]

Evening all.

rob,

>> but, this cable thing. . .
I'm not sure what cable you're talking about here.


>> Turn the VCR and make sure picture is perfect then plug
>> cable in but not to PC. If get interference then its working
>> like an antenna and its an oustseid source.
You lost me here, and on.
I'm not sure what you are asking me to do above.

bbb,
sorry, I can't see myself carrying an AM radio and waving it
around everything. I mean, I'm seeing Line Noise's
not hearing radio waves. Plus, the smallest radio I have is a stereo
boom box, and NO batteries!

- vhelp

[ROBO1964]

You said if your watching the VCR its fine till you plug in the RCA cable to capture. Plug that cable in but don't attach it to the PC and see if it still does it or of the card must be attached too. If it only happens when the card is attached then the card is the problem.

[vhelp]

eveing all.

rob,
it's only about too coensidence that bot my capture cards will inherit
the same symptoms ie, ATW and WTGO.

I still have my DC10+ around. I remember doing a capture of a childs
video, Comphy Couch way back when, last year. I can't begin
to find the copy I kept for archival purposes, and to a year down the
road, see how far I've come in better quality. It would be nice to
see it though. But, anyways, I don't remember the Line Noise
in the video. But, then again, I wasn't as keen to aquality, ie
artificts, etc. from VHS source materials back a year ago.

DC10+
I remember passing it around in one of my draws full of cards and
wires'n things. Just a matter of finding it. If I have the time to,
then this weekend I will install it in 2nd pc and give it a go.

I suspect, that if it turns out that it's the capture card, WTGO,
then I'm not sure what else to do, as I would ASSume that ANY hauppauge
card would exhibit this symptom, as well as ANY ATI card, since I
have the ATW card that exhibits these Line Noise.

But, just to note one more time, On my Sony and Sharp, the video
noise is black and the screen's background is sligtly darker.
On the JVC SVHS, the screen background is lighter, but the Line Noise
is sort of white or gray like. That would seem to hint that the
units (VCRs) are producing it.

Currently, while I'm testing my WTGO card in my 2nd pc and testing
the Sony and Sharp VCRs with it, I am testing my ATW card w/ my
JVC SVHS. It's just too coensidental that both capture cards/vcrs
are producing the same level of Line Noise.

Oh, I've ben playing around w/ my SIMA stabalizer and my JVC,
but I'm not too sure it's helping any, or is it. But, I am curious
as to WHAT exactly is the unit doing for my VHS captures??
I know it says stablizer, but HOW is it stabalizing the video??
And, is it doing anything w/ the color, etc.???

Any other suggestoins??
Thanks for all help.

-vhelp

[ROBO1964]

Do you have a DVD decoder in your PC or anything else that could cause interference?

[bbb]

I believe it's time to whip out that AM radio.