SKVCD - A step beyond CVD and SVCD.

[kwag]

I'm happy as a pig in a mud pile
So for you all SVCD freaks, here you have it!
Announcement and sample link here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=867
Some information here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=849

Enjoy!,
-kwag

[kwag]

I forgot to add that all samples now have encoded "Dolby Surround" sound. The previous samples were video streams only. This includes all KVCD PLUS samples and the new SKVCD sample.
The samples link is here: http://www.kvcd.net/dvd-models

-kwag

[Solum]

where can i get the kvcd codec?? I wanna try it

[kwag]

where can i get the kvcd codec?? I wanna try it

Hi Solum,
It's not a codec, it's a TMPGEnc template. Grab the templates here: http://www.kvcd.net/dvd-models on the far right side of the page.
Or directly here for NTSC: http://www.kvcd.net/SKVCD-352x480-_NTSC_.mcf
Here for PAL: http://www.kvcd.net/SKVCD-352x576-_PAL_.mcf

-kwag

[Solum]

hum... heheh, i just saw it!
thx!! i'll use it now!
cya

[Fozzee]

Hi
Bit confused the SCVD standard size is 480 x 576 isn't it??
Would this still work??

Fozz

[bertmartin]

I tried to play your sample but WMP looked for a compatible codec and gave up. Said something about bad media format.

[kwag]

I tried to play your sample but WMP looked for a compatible codec and gave up. Said something about bad media format.

You need an mpeg2 decoder dll. WMP plays MPEG-1, but not MPEG-2, if you don't have a decoder installed. Install WinDVD or one of the free mpeg2 dlls available.

-kwag

[baker]

What use is this templet kwag? All your templets have a use for one thing or another but I think this one is a bit.... well.. bad.

Baker

[kwag]

What use is this templet kwag? All your templets have a use for one thing or another but I think this one is a bit.... well.. bad.

Baker

Really? What is the use for this template.? It's simple Baker, it makes CVD and SVCD obsolete, as far as disk capacity is concerned. As far as quality, well, download the SKVCD sample and see for yourself
ALL CVD and SVCD templates are, well, just templates. Molded around the same old standard Q.matrixes and standard GOP. KVCD's have a unique Q.Matrix and GOP. And that's what makes the difference.
I have not seen a single SVCD template or CVD template that looks like the sample I provided, and fits 60+ minutes on a 80 minute CD-R. Just try it 8)

-kwag

[eatin sammiches for lunch]

skvcd..kool


but.....the sample doesnt look very good on my 40" flat screen sony

[kwag]

skvcd..kool


but.....the sample doesnt look very good on my 40" flat screen sony

That's not a good quality DVD. I think "Kate & Leopold" DVD's mastering was crap. I can see on my HDTV the quality of the DVD, and it's really very grainy. But that same clip, encoded as an SVCD at 2,520Kbps CBR looks worse!.
I'll look into my DVD library, and select a good quality DVD, and make another sample. I'll post the new sample link some time later today.

-kwag

[thxkid]

wow, must be your DVD player, Kate & Leopold looks great on my 36in JVC played through my Panasonic DVD Player(s).

[trekkermaster]

The link to the sample points to a broken movie, doesn't work.

Although, i will try and run that template and see by myself

[Chuck Roulette]

Just a word on the SKVCD template. I've only used it a couple of times in the last few days, but I have to say I am REALLY impressed and for several reasons.

1. The quality that I achieved was.....well, F-ing Great! No blocks or pixelation, no motion blur or jerkyness that you get sometimes. (Especially with the X-Files DVDs that I tested this on).

2. SPEED!!! Maybe it's just me, but I thought I'd have to run a 2-pass template to get this quality on my PC. (P4/1.4, 392ram, blah blah) If I ran a 2-pass on 43min ep of say the X-Files, I'm looking at close to 5-6 hours. The SKVCD template gave me better quality in 1.5-2 hours. That's faster than any other HQ SVCD template I've ever used be it 1 or 2 pass....and I have a ton of them. I was amazed.

3. Burns fine with Nero and played with no hitches on my APEX-703, with a small adjustment. Changed the res from 352x480 to 480x480, audio from Dual Chan to Stereo, demux/remux to SVCD VBR.
Now that last step might not be necessary, but I had to fix the audio offset problems you have with some of the X-Files DVDs anyway, but I'll try another DVD and find out if this step is required all the time.

4. Saves Space: Normally I try and get the best quality on my SVCDs which equals bigger files. Using the X-Files ep as an example, normally I end up with 790-825 mg SVCD compliant file (43 min) with very good quality. Not perfect, but damd good. With the SKVCD template, and those minor adjustments, I got better quality stuffed into a 670mg SVCD compliant file. Well gee whiz boys and girls, that means that I could fit another 8-10 or so minutes onto that CD. This is great news for people who want quality, but on 2/80min CDs. (Depending on the length of the movie of course).

Anyway, not here to sing anyone's praises, just telling you what I found. I've been doing this stuff (VCD,SVCD, DivX, blah, blah, blah....) for a long time and this looks damd good to me. Give it a try.

[kwag]

wow, must be your DVD player, Kate & Leopold looks great on my 36in JVC played through my Panasonic DVD Player(s).

No, it's not the DVD player. It's the DVD's. Other DVD's look excelent, and others look crappy. For example "Air Force One" looks good on some scenes, and completely crap on others. The clouds on some of the scenes look like cotton balls on some scenes , so you can really tell the good DVD's from the bad ones. This is the kind of things you can pick out on HDTV's ( CRT types ), but not on regular TV's even HDTV projection TV's.

-kwag

[trekkermaster]

Kwag, does that template can deliver good quality output from a downloased episode?

[kwag]

@trekkermaster,
Depends on the quality of your source. Like they say: "Trash in, trash out"

@ALL,
As promised earlier.
Here's a better SKVCD sample. It's 47 seconds long ~14MB: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/farscape.mpg
The intro scene of "Farscape". The file size is larger than normal, because it's a "Full Screen" episode.

-kwag

[Bobby]

Kwag I just d/l the 16 meg from http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/skvcd.mpg, all i can say that it looks the business!! But so do the 2 disc vcd variants of KVCDx2 2-CD and the KVCD PLUS Templates. See the only problem I have with using your templates is the end file size is never correct.
Like yourself I want most rips to be burned to 2 discs as 3 is a pain in the a$$ imo (saying that though Im gonna pick up an apex 5131 triple disc loader soon) and also i can get the quality I wan't using dvd2svcd and cce @ the right filesize.
Now ok Ive never gotten the quality of my 2 disc rips as good as the above sample.

Ok my goal @ the mo is to copy Terminator 2 to 2 cd's @ the best quality possible (well obviously thats the point), Recently with dvd2svcd and cce I created a 2 99 minute disc CVD using multipass X 1 with bitrates of 300 min, 2530 max, and 1500 avg. Audio is @ 224 kbps and to be honest it looks great!! V. happy with it, but being human, if there is a way to get better quality @ same filesize then I am willing to try it
T2 is 146 minutes in length, quite large for 2 disc you say, possibly but still its not worth another disc I beleive @ this quality-Its very watchable, again admitably it ain't as good as your sample-jesus in windvd 3.1 dts that looks fabulous-If I can get all my rips lookin like that then lets do it!!

But as I already mentioned when I use your older templates with T2 (High action scenes) I have always gotten a filesize which is to big for 2 discs-see if I'm gonna put T2 on 2 80 minute discs-I want it to be crambed to max of 800 megs per disc (I dont like goin over 810mb for rips), again if I wanna put T2 onto 2 99 minute discs I want it full to around 950 mb per disc-dvd2svcd is quite accurate at filesize's, I need this accuracy with your templates.
Now here's a question for ya and If you can help me then I will gladly use skvcd!!
How do I control the end filesize using your templates?
@ 146 minutes long whats your recommended settings for T2 using SKVCD to fit it on 2 99ers? (Lets say end filesize result per disc doesnt exceed 950 megs)

Hope you can help
Cheers for reading.
Bobby.

[kwag]

How do I control the end filesize using your templates?
@ 146 minutes long whats your recommended settings for T2 using SKVCD to fit it on 2 99ers? (Lets say end filesize result per disc doesnt exceed 950 megs)

Hope you can help
Cheers for reading.
Bobby.

Hi Bobby,
Being CQ, you can't predict the final size of a movie, because every movie is different. Different actions, brightness levels, contrasts, etc.
However, that's why each template has an estimated time.
For your T2 movie, the best candidate is the KVCD 352x480 PLUS. This will give you an average of 90 minutes per CD. This is based on a "Wide Screen" movie, and encoded at 23.976fps.
The SKVCD will give you 60+ minutes. These numbers are based on 80 minute CD-R's, so if you use 90 or 99 minute CD-R's, your time will be longer.
Please let everyone know, if you do use any of the templates with 90/99 minute CD-R's, so that we all know what to expect
I haven't tested any 90/99 CD's because I don't have any right now.

-kwag

[Bobby]

I remember when i was using 2 80 min cdr's for my rips, I encoded T2 (BTW all my dvd's are PAL) with a KVCD PLUS Template (Avg. 90 minutes
per CD with half D1 res template) and the filesize came to 1660 and that was before a 235mb audio file (I always encode audio sepertaly and mux later, audio was 224 kbps stereo) was added on to it so file size would have been roughly 1900mb, bang on for to 99 min discs, without stretching them to far, BTW 99 min discs can go right up to 990 megs per disc but alot of players wont play them past 950 megs!! I have the best burner for 99 minute cdr's and it can fill them right up to 99 minutes (990)
LG-GCE-8160-B a lot of burners can't fill them completly, but I prefer to play it safe, anyways 150 megs extra per disc ain't bad eah?? . But as I said I didnt have 99 min discs then.
Would skvcd give me the same results filesize wise as the afore mentioned Plus template? If so Kwag I will encode T2 using skvcd
Cheers.
Bobby.

[kwag]

Would skvcd give me the same results filesize wise as the afore mentioned Plus template? If so Kwag I will encode T2 using skvcd
Cheers.
Bobby.

I'll give you a good example on the SKVCD template file sizes. I encoded the complete "Kate & Leopold" movie, with audio at 224Kbps. The running time is 123 minutes, and the video stream file size came out to 1,419,467KB plus audio at 224Kbps came out to 201,650KB. Complete muxed movie=1,643,467. So this movie would fit with overburn in two 80 minute CD's. Be aware that this was an NTSC movie. Not PAL.
BTW, if you liked the SKVCD sample you downloaded, please check the new one just uploaded earlier today. It's the SAMPLE#1 on the right side at http://www.kvcd.net/dvd-models
The source for that is a better quality than the previous sample.

-kwag

[Bobby]

Ok Kwag I'm downloading farscape sample now
That is a good file size for 123 minutes!!
Couple of questions-I am examining the skvcd template now:
If I drop the cq level from 90 to say 80 (in the hope of a smaller filesize) will the quality drop considerably?
Also what is your view on the "motion search precision" option in TMPGEnc? I see you have it at a defualt of "motion estimate search (fast) is this a good setting or should a slower but better quality option be used?
See I really wanna get T2 onto 2 80 min cdr's because of compatibility issues with 99 min cdr's and certain dvd standalones (Thier great if your only use them on a pc cause most cd-rom drives will read em )
Thanx again Kwag.
Bobby.

[kwag]

Ok Kwag I'm downloading farscape sample now
That is a good file size for 123 minutes!!
Couple of questions-I am examining the skvcd template now:
If I drop the cq level from 90 to say 80 (in the hope of a smaller filesize) will the quality drop considerably?
Also what is your view on the "motion search precision" option in TMPGEnc? I see you have it at a defualt of "motion estimate search (fast) is this a good setting or should a slower but better quality option be used?
See I really wanna get T2 onto 2 80 min cdr's because of compatibility issues with 99 min cdr's and certain dvd standalones (Thier great if your only use them on a pc cause most cd-rom drives will read em )
Thanx again Kwag.
Bobby.

Keep the motion estimation search on "fast". It does a better job on removing "mosquito effect" artifacts. You can drop the CQ value to 80, and you won't notice any degradation on quality, unless you view on a HDTV. There, you'll start noticing a small quality drop. But the file size will drop considerably by setting the CQ to 80.

-kwag

[fatcatfan]

Would you care to explain some things in your template to me?

Specifically: your GOP has 5823 Ps and 3 Bs (per P). Thats 23293 frames per GOP. Yet you then limit then GOP to 48 frames. What exactly does this accomplish in the encoding process?

...

Ooooh... Farscape... I must download...

[kwag]

Would you care to explain some things in your template to me?

Specifically: your GOP has 5823 Ps adn 3 Bs (per P). Thats 23293 frames per GOP. Yet you then limit then GOP to 48 frames. What exactly does this accomplish in the encoding process?

...

Ooooh... Farscape... I must download...

Here's your answer: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=614

-kwag

[fatcatfan]

thanks. Have you seen this thread:
http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=107038

Wondered if you'd have any comments to add there.

[kwag]

thanks. Have you seen this thread:
http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=107038

Wondered if you'd have any comments to add there.

Yes, I've been to the tektronix site. I think I recall long GOP's in their document, reading some of their docs a couple of weeks ago.
The P frames is what makes the real difference. At least with TMPEG encoder. I've also experimented that the MAX number for B frames for quality/compression is 3. Beyond that, there's no more compression. Again, this is with TMPGEnc.
That's why the KVCD's GOP structures are set to "1,whatever_over_12",3,1,48" for NTSC, and "1,whatever_over_12,3,1,50" for PAL.

-kwag

[Bobby]

Hi kwag,
I noticed that your sample of Kate & Leopold when opened in windows media player (in the properties section) it shows the res as 640 x 480, and the filter properties for Ligos MPEG video decoder shows the res as 352 x 480 (ntsc i'm guessing), Yet when I use your skvcd template to encode a sample it shows (again in windows media player's properties section of the file) the res as 768 x 576 and in the Ligos MPEG Video decoder properties the res is 352 x 576 (which is correct for half pal D1)

My question is how come your sample says 640 x 480 and mine 768 x 576??
Also the borders in your sample are slightly larger than the ones in my samples-how did you adjust border sizes? I want to create a sample exactly like yours except with a pal half d1 res of 352 x 576.
Any ideas?
Cheers.
Bobby.

[kwag]

Hi kwag,
I noticed that your sample of Kate & Leopold when opened in windows media player (in the properties section) it shows the res as 640 x 480, and the filter properties for Ligos MPEG video decoder shows the res as 352 x 480 (ntsc i'm guessing), Yet when I use your skvcd template to encode a sample it shows (again in windows media player's properties section of the file) the res as 768 x 576 and in the Ligos MPEG Video decoder properties the res is 352 x 576 (which is correct for half pal D1)

My question is how come your sample says 640 x 480 and mine 768 x 576??
Also the borders in your sample are slightly larger than the ones in my samples-how did you adjust border sizes? I want to create a sample exactly like yours except with a pal half d1 res of 352 x 576.
Any ideas?
Cheers.
Bobby.

Hi Bobby,
I always use FitCD to create an AviSynth script, and process that with TMPEG. Then the aspect will always be correct. It's strange that you got those weird resolution numbers! I guess the CODECS you have installed are displaying false values. If you process that sample through Bit rate Viewer, you'll see that the resolution is 352x480. Try to use FitCD for your encodes. You'll get the correct aspect every time

-kwag