Alternatives to Apex players?

[homerpez]

I currently own an Apex 500W, which has worked very well for me, considering what I'm doing to it (SeVCD, XVCD, DVD's)...

However, I'm curious... are there any other brand/model of player that can do pretty much what the Apex's can as far as format diversity?

Especially interested in a player capable of PERFECT MPEG-1 VBR playback in the 0 to 2300 bitrate range.

I've looked a bit at the DVD player list, but I'd like some (fresh) feedback from people who own an alternative...

Thanks!

[homerpez]

BTW: Price doesn't matter here, just the info/testimonial on the units...

[next]

Just curious. What do you mean by "perfect" Mpeg1 vbr playback?

[aldus4]

The Sampo and it's clones (Afreey, Encore etc.) is similar to the Apex as it's able to play everything except vinyl. To be more precise it will play VCD, XVCD, SVCD, XSVCD (up to about 4.000kb/s bitrate), mini-DVD, mp3, Audio-CD oh yes and DVD's.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: aldus4 on 2001-08-10 16:14:23 ]</font>

[cmirza]

Pioneer. I too own an Apex 500W, but I've tried out a Pioneer DVD-343 player, and I can say without a doubt the Pioneer is a better player. Pioneer does CD-R, CD-RW, VCD, SVCD, X(S)VCD, DVD, etc....
The Apex has a cheap DVD drive (meaning it can't read dirty or scratched discs well, and often under-runs its buffer giving skips in motion).
And the Apex's MPEG decoder is not of the same quality of the Pioneer's.
The only fault i think of the Pioneer is that it can't do the same X(S)VCD bitrates that the Apex can do (Pioneer is limited to 2500 i believe...).
Otherwise I wish i had the extra $100 to pick up a Pioneer DVD-343 (or another $150 to get a Pioneer DVD changer)

[next]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-08-10 16:01:46, cmirza wrote:
Pioneer. I too own an Apex 500W, but I've tried out a Pioneer DVD-343 player, and I can say without a doubt the Pioneer is a better player. Pioneer does CD-R, CD-RW, VCD, SVCD, X(S)VCD, DVD, etc....
The Apex has a cheap DVD drive (meaning it can't read dirty or scratched discs well, and often under-runs its buffer giving skips in motion).
And the Apex's MPEG decoder is not of the same quality of the Pioneer's.
The only fault i think of the Pioneer is that it can't do the same X(S)VCD bitrates that the Apex can do (Pioneer is limited to 2500 i believe...).
Otherwise I wish i had the extra $100 to pick up a Pioneer DVD-343 (or another $150 to get a Pioneer DVD changer)
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I realize that everybody has their own experiences when it comes to this stuff. I've tested the Pioneer 343, the new Panasonic (26ru maybe...can't recall at the moment) and a new Sanyo 3 tray model and these "under runs" or whatever they are show up on all of the DVD players. I'm thinking it's more of the encoding process. Especially when capturing in mpeg1. All of the players "glitched" at the exact same moment with the same encoded disk. For a while I thought the player had alot to do with it but I'm beginning to think its more the encoding process and format. The only way to eliminate these "glitches" from my experience is to capture in mpeg2. Others may not have any problems in mpeg1 and that's good.

To be a bit more specific I'm referring to AIW captures using MMC 7.1. Who knows. There's so many variables that's it's tough to nail it down to one thing. I can say that I can cap in 480x480 (X)SVCD and and never have a "glitch". The captures play fine. No hicups. The same capture in mpeg1 will display an occasional "glitch". Nothing really serious but not perfect.

I think if you move off specs that it is important to understand your player and play into its strengths. For example my Apex 660 will play raw mpeg2 captures just fine. No need to do anything to them. My Apex 703 on the other hand needs the SVCD seal of good housekeeping in order to play the captures. The process is simple to get them to play on the 703 and only takes minutes but nonetheless needs to be done.

My experience has been that every model player has it quirks and its important to understand what they are and once again play into their strengths. I wouldn't give up my Apex's for anything I've tested so far. I like the 343 but the 2.5 mps limit really is no good. It's a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned. Plus in a side by side comparision the playback quality was essentially the same with my 660 and 703. It's a great unit though, just don't like the limits it has. If Pioneer fixes this in their next models I'm in.

If anybody has any interest in a 660 you better act fast because they are going to be gone soon. The new Apex models are terrible.

[RaMDaY]

I own this, its the most kick ass player http://www.noexpress.com/sys-tmpl/regionfreedvds/

[homerpez]

What concerns me here (with the Pioneer 343 and the "Code Free" player) it the VBR issue. I typically use a max of 2300, which the Apex can usually handle without effort (if the disc is clean, etc.) But if I do, it can occasionally jump to 2500 or higher! I guess that makes the Pioneer a non-option?

And this "Code Free" player... how does it perform? Anyone else see this one? Or, just spam?... just curious...

[next]

Let me correct myself on my comments on the Pioneer 343. I ran some mpeg1 VCD's through it that had an occasional "glitch" when played on an Apex 703, Panasonic, and Sanyo. The 343 played them with no glitches. I would recommend the 343 for this reason. Especially if your interest is mpeg1 (x)VCD's.

As far as (x)SVCD or simply SVCD the Apex 703 played them fine. The 343 played them fine. No glitches with either. The Panasonic and Sanyo? Forget it. So if your interest is SVCD flip a coin between the 343 and the 703. The quality was about the same.

I'm a fan of the multiple disk DVD players. I simply like to put in 2 or 3 disks and view a movie with no disk swapping. I'd like to see Pioneer come out with one that performs on par with the single tray 343.

One more thing. The Apex 660 will glitch on mpeg1 VCD's occasionally. But it can play raw mpeg2 files which none of the players I mention can do. Glitch free by the way.

edit-

I should add that although in my tests both the Apex 703 and the Pioneer 343 played SVCD fine the Pioneer could not handle advanced bit rate XSVCD. The 703 could. By fine I mean glitch free.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: next on 2001-08-11 05:49:41 ]</font>

[SatStorm]

I also like to mention amoisonic and cyberhome.
Those players are based on dvd- roms and plays anything, except mini DVD.
Cyberhome has no problems with XDVDs too...
What is that? DVD-R disks, with vcd or svcd files...

[homerpez]

I'm wondering now... I heard somewhere that Apex DVD-Rom drives were cheap, but could be swapped out for other DVD-Rom Drives and work fine... is this true?

The reason I ask, is that next's comment on glitches reminded me that most of my problems I am having with my Apex are due to the drive, not the playing hardware...

Usually, 99% of the time, my problems have to do with MINOR disk scratches (which my PC drive ignores), or little bits of dust on the CD... so maybe the answer is a new DVD drive?

If this can be done, which ones would be good to upgrade to?...

Or would it be more worth my while just to get a Pioneer for VBR MPEg-1 VCD playing?

[dcahoe]

I cast another vote for the Sampo player. BTW the 'Code Free' player that has been mentioned is a Sampo DVE-620. The current model available is the DVE-620 (or DVE-625 with karaoke).

I've had my 625 for a month and it plays everything perfectly. I really enjoy the mp3 feature, and the karaoke is fun.

I havn't made any VCDs with super high bitrates, but have with variable bitrates, and they play great.

[homerpez]

Sampo, eh?...

If it's better than Apex, I'm there... possibly...

I was a little turned off to it, as I noticed that the same guy posts "this player is awesome" or some variant on dozens of threads, with a link directly to the mfgr.'s web site... now it could be a guy who likes to write fast, or it could ahve been spam... since the guy's not alone now, I have to wonder...

I'd be especially interested in if this player uses a better DVD-Rom Drive (they don't specify on their site), but maybe someone out there knows... wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean? Say no more. Right? Say no more...

[aldus4]

If you are interested in the range of Sampo players I would recommend you visit the Area450 site. This is a site for users made by users of Sampo players. Apart from all the info's which one is good, which is not so good, firmware updates, hackware etc, there is a forum...

http://www.area450.co.uk

[treborf]

I just purchased a DAEWOO DVG-3000N based on the following glowing review:

http://rain.prohosting.com/dvdinfo/daewoo3000n/

I tested a homemade XVCD (2500 kbits/sec) and it played flawlessly. The DVD playback quality was excellent, although I should say that it's my first DVD player, so I haven't done a lot of comparisons.

In the U.S., it is available for $99 at Sam's Club. I am not sure about its availability outside of the U.S.

Good luck finding you're next piece of gear.

[WMCollins]

I just purchased a second APEX 660 from Sam's club. (So I do not have to steal the DVD player from the family when I want to do some work.) I had the DAEWOO in the cart because on the box it did not mention being able to play PAL along with NTSC. So for only $20 more, I chose the APEX 660 ($119). Also, Wal-Mart had the APEX 500 for $99.

[homerpez]

OK, here's how it's looking now. I'm glad I asked...

What used to be minor glitches with the Apex player, are now glaring errors which are forcing me to take it back (luckily it's within the Wal*Mart 90-day limit!)

Seems I can't play a movie all the way through, without errors, blocks from nowhere, etc. CD-R's which it read fine before, no longer work! And, I can take a CD with errors galore on the Apex drive, play it on my DVD-ROm, and it works like a charm. the Apex MUST GO!

I'm wary on the Sampo players... any time I see guides on how to swap out the drive, I realize the drives in those are cheap too! Dosn't solve my delemma.

I'm now especially interested in the Pioneer 343 (if I can find one...), but I have two very important questions, and I want to have them answered immediately!

ONE: Dos the Pioneer have a high-quality Rom drive? (My computer DVD-Rom happens to be a Pioneer model, works great. Any indication?)

TWO: Dos it play all varieties of XVCD? Including low bitrates? Anywhere from the 0 to the 2300 bitrate range? Most of mine average out at 800-1000 bitrate, but some are higher, some may have "jumps" in them (it may briefly go higher than 2300. Will they work?

Thanks!

[homerpez]

...and YES, I DID clean off the lens first before jumping to this conclusion!

[Iview]

If you want a brand name DVD player and will play all your home-made VCD/xVCD/SVCD/xSVCD without a problem, and MP3 to boot, check out Hitachi DVP-415U. It will read any bitrate (tested it to 3800 probably will go higher yet).
BTW, the new batch of Sampo DVE-620 has a better drive in them now. I will have to say it is better than the Apex.

[aldus4]

I have never had problems with the drive or anything else for that matter with my Encore DV450 (same build as Sampo DVE560). As for the Sampo DVE 620 it doesn't have the onboard digital encoder, but naturally if you have an amplifier that can handle a digital signal you don't need it. The new batch of Sampo's are unfortunately delivered with the firmware that has no macrohack etc. But this problem can be eliminated quickly by "flashing" it with a different firmware.

[homerpez]

One player I've scratched off the list: Pioneer ANYTHING. I got a 343 yesterday, brought it back last night. I will NOT play anything made by TMPGEnc (unless re-multiplexed first), and even if I recompiled every movie I made, it "burned" whites to brightly to be compensated for by my TV. Everything looked horrible, even DVD. It even looked/felt more cheaply made than the Apex!

So, I went ahead and got another Apex 500W for now (fresh one). I might look into maybe replacing the rom drive with a better one if need be (I hear it's fairly simple to do so)...

[Freddie100]

I have both the Apex 703 and Pioneer 434. The Pioneer played everything but had to demux and mux for the Apex to play the CD. The Pioneer has a little better quality then the Apex. Can't go above 2550 on the bitrate on the Pioneer tho.The Apex 703 can be maded macrovision free.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Freddie100 on 2001-08-18 13:19:39 ]</font>

[danmanx]

Around here, there's a store called FYE which is selling Daewoo DVD players for $99. I don't know what they play though, probably not as good as Apex.

[str0le]

Ok. This shit sucks. i saw on this site that my rca would play the svcds'. So I got about 50 gigs of svcds' on my hd and then bought a burner. I burned them and they won't play on my player. WTF is going on? Did I just waste my time. This really sux. Also, I saw an APEX dvd player for sale at WAL-Mart for only $99. So that one is supposed to play these svcds'. This totally sux. I want to watch it on my big screen, but I don't want to buy another dvd player. I already have three in the house and one on the pc. Help

[homerpez]

You never know what the unit will be like, until you get it home. Unfortunately, the report on this site end up being a starting point only. In the end, you'll probably find your own solution.

I found that out the hard way with thw Pioneer unit, and with my Apex's (only after having 2 units with crappy drives do I fully understand what I need to do)!

You'll notice that you'll see more people saying "Oh, it plays everything!" than saying "It plays everything... if you do this that this and like that and like this and a..."

In my case, this means everything plays perfect on an Apex IF you replace the ROM drive (if I can find a slower all-region somewhere) AND demux, remux with bbMPEG, etc etc etc.

Pain, isn't it.

[Kdiddy]

never know what the unit will be like till you get it home?? WTF!!

Do you not test something out before you buy it...I always tell people to take whatever kind of disk you plan on using...to the store, tell them to hook-up the player..and see what it does BEFORE you buy.....

man thats like buying a car b4 you test drive it

[homerpez]

Yeah, basically.

But in reality... ever been to Circuit City? Or Wal*Mart? These "sales" people either:

1) Know squat about the differences between players

AND/OR

2) Will sell you whatever they're told to

Also, I can tell you from experience ( having WORKED at Wal*Mart Electronics dept., though I never ended up a "team player" ) they really don't LET you try it out, in fact I've been to 3 Wal*Mart stores recently, and they don't even have the player set up on a TV to try!

Hence it's good they have a 90-day return policy. Gave me 45 days worth to have it go bad on me, and a chance to mess around, feel it out over time to see what it'd do. In the store you get maybe 15 minutes to decide. At least I do, with my busy "family" schedule and all...

But my point really was that you can have all the "positive" comments on a player on this board (like the Pioneer), but it doesn't always translate into reality.

Like on my Apex, superficially (even if I had tested it in the store), it would have seemed to be the player to get. And it's highly rated. But I didn't know until 45 days later (and, thankfully within the return policy) that Apex's have crappy drives, that BEG to be replaced with something better.

I plan on going ahead and doing this, I'm going to try putting a Toshiba SD-M1222 drive (PC-DVD-ROM unit) and see if that improves playback...

[JJamez]

I dunno homer... My 343 plays TMPG encodes fine, without any demux & remux. I haven't seen any 'whiteness' problems either - the Pioneer has far and away the best quality output I've seen in a budget player, and I've had a few. Maybe you got a bad unit or something (probably unlikely, but possible).

I agree with your point about people posting 'it plays everything' - I recently sold my Genica Kalua and got a 343 because the Kalua wouldn't play nonstandard resolution VCD/SVCD.

But contrary to what I've read here, the Pioneer does NOT play everything. Close, but it has its flaws. From what I've seen so far, it chokes on very low bitrates for some reason. It will generally play all nonstandard resolutions, but many will not be full screen- some sizes get displayed in a little box at the corner of the screen. It chokes on multi-page Nero menus.

Other than those minor flaws, I love it. I haven't had a problem with bitrate as long as you keep it around ~2500 or so - I personally don't see the need to encode over that anyway.

[homerpez]

Glad it worked for you, mine certainly must have been bad (and I mean BAD), and it definitely would not be a player I would like to stick with anyway. Especially with the low bitrate crap... half my movies drop down to 0 bitrate with no padding, so that's unacceptable.

I think the only option for me now is to try replacing that drive ROM with a better unit. The Apex has been, far and away, the best player I've run across, other than the ROM drive issue. And it is a biggy.

To each his or her own, I guess.

[next]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the only option for me now is to try replacing that drive ROM with a better unit. The Apex has been, far and away, the best player I've run across, other than the ROM drive issue. And it is a biggy.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

If you are sold on having to replace the ROM drive then I would suggest the Apex 660. There are simple tutorials available which walk you through the process. I'm not even sure if it can be done on a 500w.

But why replace the ROM drive? The Apex 660 can play raw mpeg2 files just fine. Just cut and burn. The 660 doesn't require even a hint of SVCD compliancy for mpeg2 captures. I do real time mpeg2 captures 480x480 with different bit rates both CBR and VBR and edit the file and burn. No demux/mux required. (My Apex 703 requires a demux/mux to an SVCD program stream but that only takes minutes in mpeg2vcr)

The 660 may have an occasional glitch with mpeg1 files but it has no problems with mpeg2 (XSVCD). It's also very easy to change the ROM drive if you are so inclined. And it's a simple process to make it region and macrovision free via CDR. You can also upgrade the ROM drive firmware very easily. But they are in limited supply and will be gone soon so this option will not be around for much longer.

I've done the buy it - test it - return it - routine on about a half dozen DVD players and nothing comes even close. People can complain about the quality of the Apex players but this 660 stands up well against any unit I've looked at. Plus it's easy to fix any problem. If a decoder board goes bad just pop the case and do a board swap. They are really simple inside. I'm even thinking about setting up an external drive enclosure with a removable tray so I can swap ROM drives at will.

I agree that the newer Apex units leave alot to be desired - the 1500 for example.