ATI All-In-Wonder 128 Problem

[scottrwn98]

Ok, I've read all of the check-lists on how to get a computer up and running for video capturing. So here is my story.

I recently formated my computer to help my system run better. (700mhz, 384meg RAM, 26gig and 80gig HD)

I used to be able to capture AVI 640x480 and 720x480 (VCR to DV purposes) with my ATI Capture. I also have a IEEE FireWire card that captures DV as well. Both worked great. Since I've upgraded from WIN98/SE to Windows XP (after my format), I downloaded Multimedia Center 7.2 and DVD 5.0. I can capture using my FirwWire (720x480) just fine, but my ATI will not capture anything above 320x240. It Drops Frames!! 20% frames dropped...40%...etc. I've tried different compressions as well.

ATI told me that my computer is not up to capturing hi-res video. Says that the reason for dropping frames is due to not being able to write to the hard disk. Both of my harddrives drop frames. More frames on C than D of course...but why can I capture DV IEEE (720x480) just fine and not ATI capture (anything above 320x240)??? I tried MPEG and MPEG2...EVEN AT 320x240...DROP FRAMES...I think it is their software or something.

Somebody please help!!!

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Try upgrading with the newst ati drivers

[scottrwn98]

I did. I got on the ati.com wesite and uploaded the current XP drivers. As of now, I'm trying to install the RADEON MMC 7.6 to see if this will improve.

[scottrwn98]

OK OK...Now I remember what I did differently in WIN98...I captured with the CODEC of VCR1 and VCR2...thats why I could capture at 720x480...cause with WINXP, I can only use the old UYU or whatever that when used in WIN98, it only limited me to 320x240.

But now, I cannot get ATIVCRx to load on XP! Where can I find this CODEC??? Will ATI VCR1 or 2 work in XP!???

Grrr...stupid upgrade to XP...

[oldfart13]

This is why I didn't upgrade to XP despite the file size limitation when I recently bought an ATI 7500 AIW. With 98SE, I have no problems at all with the card...

[Parabellum7]

Hi Scott,


I'm running an AMD 1Ghz, 768Mhz of 133mhz RAM, Quantum Fireball 40gb in ATA-100 mode, and the ATI All-In-Wonder 128 Pro w/32mb, AGP 4x and Win2k. All drivers are current, as are all service packs and patches. When capturing using Premiere 6.01 at 640 x 480, I too get a few dropped frames ... not as many as you're getting, few enough that it's hardly noticable. When I was running a PII-350, it would drop frames like crazy on anything above 352x240.

Basically, I think ATI tech support is right about your machine being not quite fast enough. It takes a _lot_ of CPU power to digitize video, ie convert it from an anolog signal to a digital file. I have to have my HDD well defragged and _nothing_ else running, especially real-time anti-virus software (it intercepts/scans everything) or I'll get more dropped frames.

With a digital camcorder, the camera itself is doing the digitizing and transferring the video to your PC is simply a file transfer, like a tape backup does. The PC only has to recieve a digital file and put it to disk, not much else to do.

I'm using a Sony Digital-8 DCR-TRV730 which has S-Video in ... I can run a signal into it while connected via FireWire to the PC, essentially using it as an external digitizer (sorta like the Hollywood DV bridge) and free up oodles of processing.

You might try MGI VideoWave, it seems to have less overhead than Premiere.


Hope that helps ...


-Kenn

[scottrwn98]

Well, here is the thing...I used to be able to capture 720x480 in the past. My ATI card is two years old. When I first bought it, I could capture with no problem. After two years, I bought another hard drive and upgraded my memory from 256 to 384. So basically I was capturing 720x480 with a fragmented harddrive and 256 meg of ram.

So I buy another harddrive (80gig), transfer my 26gig harddrive to the new one to back everything up. FORMAT C...and I reinstalled win98...ATI everything worked ok...well, kinda....I had capture trouble with my DV...it would play back fast. Ever since I formated my HD, I think that some DLL or VCX or soemthing that made video transfer fast was lost and it is nolonger on my computer now.

So I upgrade to XP...upgrade to MMC7.2 and such...cannot capture anymore. I think this is bull, becuase I used to be able to capture 720x480 with only 1-2gig left on C only (i didn't have a new HD yet) and 255RAM, WIN98.

Something is not installed properly or missing. I really would appreciate it if someone could help me fix this. I appreciate all of the help you have given now, but there is a missing piece to this jigsaw puzzle.

[ratt794]

Check all of your system drivers - make sure they are current. Also make sure DMA is enabled on your hard disks. Go to your motherboard website and get the latest chipset drivers - this can also screw things up.

I had a Duron 750 with AMD 750 chipset and 128 meg of SDRAM that would capture 720x480 in AVI uncompressed and not drop a single frame wunning on Win98se. XP I am told is a little slower O/S so PC speed is important. Now My Video PC is an Athalon 1800 XP with 128 meg DDR and win2Kpro. I don't have any issues with my ATI AIW 128 Pro capturing 720x480 in AVI - even RGB uncompressed at 1.8 gig per minute! Both of my hard disks are Maxtor 7200RPM UDMA 100 but my 40 gig is 2x faster than my 15 gig at sustained transfer rates.

Other things to consider - Hard disks should be 7200 RPM and UDMA 100 for best performance. 5400 RPM may work as long as the drive is not fragmented. When captureing shut down all un-necessary programs to give maximum CPU capaity to the capture.

Regards,

[Thorn]

You may not like this solution if you prefer the compressed capture file, but the common opinion is that the included MMC is not good to use for capturing. I just upgraded from my ATI AIW 128 but I always captured in 720x480 using Virtualdub (a free program, you owe it to yourself to try it). However, I had a 1.33GHz Athlon and I captured in Huffyuv (in win2k). Since it sometimes uses up to 50% of my CPU you may need to only cap at 640x480 for noisy video.

Huffyuv is compressed about 2:1 so it takes around 30GB per hour. The thing is, it's lossless (good if you're re-encoding later) and it takes a lower amount of CPU than the more compressed codecs. If your hard drive was the limiting factor, this will be better than raw uncompressed but still a workout on your drive.

One last note on the drive, RPM isn't the only thing that matters. You will have a sustained transfer rate of about 8-9MB/s using 720x480 Huffyuv, and maybe 17MB/s for uncompressed video! Older drives can't do that, but anything produced in the last year or so should be capable.

Anyway, try Huffyuv or other capture codecs to see what suits you best. There may be a comparable codec to the ATI vcr codecs if ATI refuses to let you install them on XP.

[scottrwn98]

Ok, just so everyone knows, both of my HardDisks are 7200RPM and DMA is enabled on both. 26gig and 80gig.

I tried captureing at all of the compressors...nothing. OK, GET THIS...I tried capturing 352x240 MPEG2...and guess what? Dropped frames. The only thing I can capture is 320x240 AVI using the UVU (native) or whatever to capture.

Not only is ATI TV 7.1 dropping frames, but Adobe Premiere 6.1 and ULead 4 is also droping framse (anything above 320x240)...but when I try to capture out of Adobe or Ulead...I can only select the UYVY or YVU9 compression...I cannot select anything else. This does not make any sense. When I capture using the TV 7.1, I can capture using all of my compressors that I have installed...and 80% of them either say NOT SUPPORTED or the TV locks up.

I know it has something to do with what compressor I'm capturing at. It has something to do with the compressor UYVY or YVU9. Like I said before, before XP, I could capture using ATI-VCR1 or ATI-VCR2 and 720x480 would be 100% perfect. I edited a whole movie with it. Now, I can only use UYVY or YUY2 in XP with Premiere or TV7.1. Can I enable other codecs when capturing...Grrr....I cannot believe ATI's card has failed due to a software upgrade. Am I going crazy?

Thank you all for your help...

[Barnabas]

Scott,

You won't be able to capture to anything above X x 240 to AVI with your ATI-All-In-Wonder 128, as ATI is pushing the Radeons now, and dropped support for the BT 829 chip that the AIW 128 uses. If you were on 98 you could use the old ATI drivers and get past the X x 240 limit, but not since ATI came out with the 7.0 MMC and drivers. I have the same exact card and finally gave up trying to get past 240. ATI wanted me to buy a new Radeon 7500 just to get what I used to have, but I bought a WinTV card new on eBay for $22.00 and use that now for AVI caps. Works better and MUCH less $ too. Your computer is right on the edge for real-time mpeg captures.

[kinneera]

Your system is quite sufficient - you don't need a new video card, nor is Windows XP necessarily your problem. Quite frankly, the MMC is just crappy software. As someone else suggested, use VirtualDub with a lossless codec like Huffyuv or MJPEG (segmented captures if necessary) and encode using a separate MPEG encoder like TMPGEnc. 80GB should be plenty for AVI captures. You'll also get much better quality, since MMC's MPEG codec isn't particularly good and you can select from a huge number of free filters for AVI editing - most notably ones that can do wonders in removing noise from an analog signal.

I use an AIW 128 on a PIII 800Mhz system running XP and have used this method with great results.

[Thorn]

Load up taskmgr next time you cap and check your CPU usage to see if you're burning up your CPU.

Barnabas: I was capturing 720x480 using the AIW 128 in windows 2000, and I think I was using MMC 7.0 or 7.1 and whatever drivers were available several months ago. Don't 2k drivers work in XP since they're both NT based OSs?

[pb]

I have an AIW 128 16Mb PCI card and Win XP, and cannot capture avi past 352x288(PAL). This must be a driver problem, even using all freeware capture programs (VDub, IUvcr, freeVCR etc), anything other than 352x288 not supported. I would like to know how to capture at resolutions greater than this with what I've got, so how do people do it with Vdub etc and this card, using Huffy or some other avi codec??

[scottrwn98]

I figured that ATI would screw me on this matter. My CPU usage is about 2-6%. I know it is not the CPU and I'll tell you what I think it is...I think it is the CODEC that I'm capturing at...I tried capturing in Premire, Ulead, and Virtual DUB...and the only sucess was 640x480 Huffy...thats the limit.

I honestly believe that it is the CODEC. If I can capture DV and output DV with my FireWire, then I know it is my capture CODEC for my ATI.

I total agree with ATI making MMC 7.0 making it difficult to capture highres.

I do appreciate all that you people have done to help me...it is much appreciated.

I have a 700mhz 384, WinXP...ATI32mb...should I upgrade to a Radeon capture card? For my degree studies I need the analog capture 720x480 capabilties that i can convert to DV...like VCR footage captured to merge with DV clips. What is the best route to go? Keep the ATI AIW128 and work with it...or upgrade to RADEON...or upgrade my computer? or Door number 4??? If I have a good system, then why not get another capture card?

OH Geez!! Thanks again everyone !!

[kinneera]

You should be able to do what you want without spending any money, for another capture card or anything else. What I recommend you do is this:

-Uninstall everything from ATI, MMC, DVD players, whatever
-Download the latest driver from ATI, just the driver, and install it
-Make sure you have the latest version of DirectX
-Install Huffyuv and capture in VirtualDub

You should be able to use a resolution of 720x480.

[patrickm]

your system sounds pretty sufficient to me. i've been running an athlon 900 with an AIW 128 Pro AGP ( Rage Theater ) for over a year now on win2k, and i can even go up to 640x480 MPEG-2 with <1% drops. i have 640 Mb ram, but since ATI doesn't use it, that's pretty inconsequential. (it worked fine at SVCD w/ 320, i had other reasons to increase). turn off all power management, even screen savers, don't run crap in the background (use task manager to check cpu usage), and keep motion estimation slightly below 100%. (i use 97, that lets me alt-tab back and forth between capture and certain windows like email w/o a problem). i do mostly SVCD captures off tv, since i don't have a vcr here. i recently added an ata100 RAID @ 5400rpm, but that was only a couple weeks back, and i always did fine with a WD 60G 5400rpm ATA100 as the secondary master target drive. make sure your DMA is enabled, that can cause massive frame losses like you're talking about. give the AIW its own IRQ (don't use ACPI, APM power management is better for A/V stuff), and do the same for the sound card. keep them at 9,10,11 if possible (these get higher priority than 3, 5, 7)

my configuration:
ASUS a7v133, 640Mb pc133 generic
2x40G maxtor 5400 ATA100
1x60G wd 5400 ATA100
1x15G wd 5400 ATA66 (system)
DX 8.1a
Aureal Vortex2 sound card
Win2k SP2/3
ATI AIW 128 Pro AGP
drivers 5.13.1.3279
tv capture drivers 6.13.0.6125 (latest for rage theater, off radeon 7500 page)
mmc 7.7.0.1 (7.6, 7.5, 7.1 also worked fine)

also, in NT/2K/XP do a ctrl-alt-del and give atimmc.exe a bump up to 'above normal' priority if you switch off the window.

if you're just converting to 720x480 DV for export, capture high-bitrate (6-8Mbps) I-frames only. better for editing and cpu usage, but bigger files.
it's essentially MJPEG.

[scottrwn98]

I cannot capture at MPEG ... even I frames...it still drops frames. I might unstall all ATI software except the display driver...because I still use the monitor to TV to display my old movies before I went to DV (640x480) movies at full screen using my Video out on the AIW to a VCR.

Here is what I use my video stuff for:

1. capture FireWire stuff (DV) (720x480)
2. capture VHS tapes (720x480) sometimes (640x480) <when editing and converting to DV>
3. output AVI's and MPEG's full screen with ATI outputting to a VCR.
4. output AVI's to my DV camera with IEEE FireWire
5. Render 3D Studio Max graphics and convert them to DV

All I ask is to take a lady's horse video footage on VHS and capture/edit it and convert it to DV so it the quality is good. But I cannot capture 720x480 with these new drivers.



Geezzz...I'm going on vacation tomorrow Monday for a week...so hopefully I can clear my mind and start again before the fall semester.

Thanks guys, you have been a big help...gives me several things to tell the ATI techsupport when I ball him out.

[Barnabas]

Scott,

It's not a CODEC issue, it's a driver one. Even the newest XP drivers for the WinTV cards only give X x 240, but fortunately the generic BT drivers can do X x 480 in XP the card.

One user here suggested that 2000 drviers *might* work with your card. That could be worth a try as I seem to recall Hauppauge telling me that using 2000 drivers with their card would enable it to get X x 480.

And to the people who keep saying to "download the latest drivers" THAT'S what started all the problems in the first place.

[scottrwn98]

Where can I get a driver that would help capture 720x480 AVI?

I figured it might be either a driver issue or a CODEC issue...with Huffey, I'm really pushing it just with 640x480.

Well, what kind of driver are we talking about? Where could I get this driver to capture with? and will this help with my video processing..even with DV capture?

[kinneera]

Just for the record, I have installed the latest driver available on ATI's website and have no problems capturing at 720x480. I'm fairly certain its the software, not the driver itself.

[scottrwn98]

I went to ATI.COM and got the MMC7 and DVD5 and the display driver...and I that is why I started this huge fuss over the ATI not capturing...because of the newest drivers.

[Barnabas]

Just for the record, I have installed the latest driver available on ATI's website and have no problems capturing at 720x480. I'm fairly certain its the software, not the driver itself.

What specifc card, OS, and driver are you running?

[kinneera]

The details on my video card:
All-In-Wonder 128 PCI
ASIC Type: Rage 128 PRO
ASIC ID: 5044
BIOS Version: 001.001.003.001
BIOS Part Number: 113-70401-100
BIOS Date: 2000/06/07
Memory Size: 16.0 M
Memory Type: SDR SGRAM 1:1 / SDRAM
Driver File: ati2dvaa.dll
Release Version: 6.60-010926m-1476C-ATI
Tuner Type: Philips FI1236 MK2 NTSC M/N North America
Decoder Type: Rage Theater
Video Standard: NTSC
Audio Type: ITT MSP3430 (NA)
General Driver Details:
Driver Date: 9/26/2001
Driver Version: 6.13.3279.0
Installed from file named "wxp_r128_6_13_3279.exe" (still the most recent available driver on ATI's website)

OS:
Microsoft Windows XP Professional 5.1.2600 Build 2600

[Barnabas]

Where can I get a driver that would help capture 720x480 AVI?

I figured it might be either a driver issue or a CODEC issue...with Huffey, I'm really pushing it just with 640x480.

Well, what kind of driver are we talking about? Where could I get this driver to capture with? and will this help with my video processing..even with DV capture?

Scott,

I spent the last 6 months or so trying to find a driver for the 128 that would work beyond 240. I finally gave up and just bought a separate capture card. You can pick up a CyberMailAV card that will do the trick for about $15 or so, and a Hauppauge WinTV will work as well for a little more. As long as the card has a BrookTree 848/9 or 878/9 chipset you can use generic drivers, but those drivers won't work on the AIW 128 as it has a BrookTree 829 chipset.

kinneera,

The 128 PRO has the higher BT chipset, the plain 128 does not. That's why you can get the higher rez and we can't.

[scottrwn98]

I have Windows XP Home Edition, and I downloaded the same driver at the ATI website...O/S XP and my Card All-In-Wonder 128. There are three drivers on that website. and Display driver I downloaded but my XP CD already installed the driver. I did install the one from the website as well. Still nothing.

As far as ATI, I'm not very happy with their capture card and XP drivers. All of their check lists I've done...DMA, defrag...etc. I've got one person telling me it is a driver problem, and another telling me it is a software problem. A CODEC problem? I'm confused.

I'm sorry if I do not understand this, but I know my computer is capable of capturing 720x480. It has in the past, but only in Win98/SE. XP has thrown me off...but the purpose of the ATI company is to back their products up and give full support for the current drivers to ensure customer satisfaction for all products. I'm not a happy camper with his card. The only difference between when I used to be able to capture and now is Win98/SE upgrade to XP. Thisi s the only thing that doesn't work from the upgrade.

Again, thank you for everyone's help...

[scottrwn98]

Oh, by the way...my card is an ATI All-In-Wonder 128 PCI (32meg)

[Barnabas]

Scott,

While there are many folks who post on these forums who are all trying to help new users, a great many of them don't know enough about things to really help. I own the very same All-In-Wonder 128 card as you, but with 16 megs of memory. I have Windows XP Home edition as well. I have a background in commercial satellite video, and also do some computer repairing. I have been doing computer video capturing for about 2 1/2 years now, video for 20 years. Your problem is NOT due to a CODEC problem, it IS due to the DRIVER. While there *might* be a driver out there that could get you past X x 240 AVI for your card in XP, I have never been able to find it. While your computer IS capable of capturing in AVI at 720 x 480, your DRIVER is not. Defrag, DMA etc., will help you to drop less frames, it will NOT enable you to capture at X x 480 unless the DRIVER can. Your computer is NOT fast enough to capture meg2 at that size in real-time however, and your CPU is near the edge even in AVI. Why don't you call up ATI and discuss this with them. They will tell you pretty much what I have just told you I suspect.

And to the person that said he needs to upgrade to Direct X 8.1, that comes with XP, so he has that already.

[kohchunk]

Hi to all!,
Might like to try out the MMC 7.7.0.1 on ATI's website at:
http://www.ati.com/support/products/pc/radeon8500/winxp/radeon8500winxpdrivers.html?cb...&cmdNext=GO%21

The MMC 7.7 worked for my AIW 128 Pro 32 MB on WinXP, and i could capture in PAL 752*576 using the ATI VCR Codec (incl in MMC 7.7), with 0% dropped frames, or the MPEG-2 I-Frames only mode (0% drop frames also)

however, the MMC is still not 100% yet and crashes occasionally on viewing the videos.

btw, i'm using a VIA 694T chipset, PIII 733 MHz, SBlive! card, and a Maxtor 60GB 7200RPM hdd.

Hope that helps!..
Hope ATI better release a new driver for us AIW 128Pro uses soon!!

[patrickm]

maybe i missed something, but i never saw anywhere where you downloaded the XP rage theater capture drivers. get them off the radeon 7500 AIW page, it's a file like Tv_capture_6_0_13_6125 or something to that effect. they can make a huge difference in XP, and they do work with the AIW 128 Pro, because it's rage theater specific, not radeon specific.

the AVI is limited in directshow usually to x240, and the VCR codec in 7.7 is just a modified MPEG, not an AVI like ATI VCR1 or VCR2 used to be.

and 700 Mhz is more than enough for AVI or I-frame MPEG-2. regardless of what you hear from ATI or anywhere on this board. in fact, under win 98SE or ME i've done 640x480 AVI on a k6/550. XP is more demanding, but AVI doesn't take much unless you're making divx. DMA is critical, you can't do full frame MPEG without it on your system. also, shut down all background programs, esp virus scanners and power mangagement, as i said before.

btw, i'm no amateur at this either. other important things to remember - THE ATI AIW 128 is NOT THE SAME AS THE AIW 128 PRO, one has a BT capture chip (most all 16Mb PCI), the oher uses a Rage Theater (all AGP and some PCI 32Mb). This is why you need the newer rage theater (issued for radeon) drivers. in addition, the ATI card's native NTSC resolution is 640x480, and 720x480 is extrapolated, and wastes CPU power for essentially no additional information. aim for 640x480 captures, you'll see the CPU difference.

also, what ATI will tell you is not necessarily true. they tried to tell me a solid green line across my tv display was a software problem. after an RMA, without changing software one bit, it disappeared.