CVD VS. DVD ?????

[mol3000]

I Want to no which one looks better..... i no everyone gonna think different but i wanted to no is the cvd thing a bunch of hype or is it actually worth lookin at????? also how compatible is the cvd format??????

[vitualis]

Of course DVD looks better than CVD (which is quite similar to SVCD in most ways).

Anyone trying to convince you otherwise is using the "bullshit factor"...

Regards.

[offline]

CVD is worth looking at if you want to :

1) save money and effort by using CDR and not DVD recording methods
2) fit more than one movie on a DVD disc
3) Capture VHS or S-VHS to copy on either CDR or DVD discs
4) Copy high action movies with less chance of macroblocks

DVD 720x576(480) will almost always look better than CVD 352x576(480)
except at below 4,000 kbs bitrates at which point CVD can look better than
SVCD and DVD is likely to show macroblocks.

CVD, if done correctly, complies to the DVD standard (low res DVD
video streams) CVD copied to DVD will play in any media compatable
DVD player. CVD on ordinary CDR discs, will work with 70% of PAL DVD players and approx 30% of NTSC (North Amercian) DVD players but you
might have to rewrite the mpeg header or reduce sound to 44.1Hkz.

Check out the guides for CVD info.

[SatStorm]

I think is more for US, about 40 - 50% of the players.
Most of the times the problem is the audio. US players don't like 48000khz on CD-R media.
With european players, almost all SVCD compatibles gonna play CVD too. After 2000, all DVD standalones in europe are SVCD and CVD compatible, except some brands from Sony, Marantz, etc... Japan players mostly, for obvious political reasons...

[adam]

Offline, a compliant CVD will ot conform to the dvd standard. I don't know about the GOP structure, that may present a problem but the sampling rate of the audio is definitely the breaking point. CVD's DO NOT use 48kHz audio.

SatStorm like I said, CVD's do not use 48kHz audio they use 44100kHz just like SVCD. The ONLY real difference between CVD and SVCD is the resolution. (there's one other minor variation hardly worth mentioning, in one format one file is mandatory and another optional and in the other format its switched.) If you look at the history of CVD and SVCD it really seems to suggest that ALL SVCD compatible dvd players are required to play CVD, regardless of what region they are. I'm trying to find actual documentation to prove this but I think it may be hard since I don't understand Chinese.

I think you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a single Svcd compatible dvd player that does not also support compliant CVD's. But if your using 48kHz audio then no wonder your having problems, your not complying to the CVD standard.

I've tested hundreds of players and I have yet to find one that plays SVCD's but not CVD's. At the very least the compatibility of CVD's is more like %90-95, there's no way its as low as %40.

[SatStorm]

Hi adam
I wrote the very first time in the CVD faq about the audio. CVD is 44100khz like SVCD. I suggest people to test IF there player support 48000khz on CDs and if yes, then better keep audio @ this samplerate. I think it is very straight in the FAQ. But I think, people don't read all the article...

Personally, I testing the standalones with a true CVD (a commercial chinese movie I bought from the net a year ago) and untill now, all SVCD compatible players play it perfect. My own CVDs also are playable to anything supporting both SVCD and CD-R(W) media.

I find also some documents for an advance form of CVD, the CVDx1. Still searching infos for it. Maybe interest things may come on the top!

About the R1 players, I don't have access to them, so I simply post what US users report for the subject. If they report that there player doesn't support CVD, what can I say?

[offline]

CVD's DO NOT use 48kHz audio.

I agree.. However this does not change the fact that many ppl treat CVD as I do.. as an SxVCD of sorts.

ALL SVCD compatible dvd players are required to play CVD, regardless of what region they are.

There is no requirement. I have dealt with some of the companies that manufacture to local (Chinese) specs. All they did was dump in as many features that the ESS
chipset would handle - and it turned out it could do lots of things.. even play mp3 's.

I think you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a single Svcd compatible dvd player that does not also support compliant CVD's.

True.. but SVCD in the 1st generation was a Chinese only spec. North
Amercia would have been none the wiser except for a company called
Apex who bought a bunch of 500A model DVD players and introduced
them to the US market. The DVD spec says ziltch about compatability
with SVCD or anything else except CD DA audio.

But if your using 48kHz audio then no wonder your having problems, your not complying to the CVD standard.

I'm not having problems. The quotes re the % are from VVD, a major DVD reseller ins the Auspac market last year.

I've tested hundreds of players and I have yet to find one that plays SVCD's but not CVD's. At the very least the compatibility of CVD's is more like %90-95, there's no way its as low as %40.

Good on ya , however please read my post. I did not imply anything about SVCD and CVD. It is more than possible that all DVD players that can play SVCD can play CVD. The % was for all DVD players regardless of SVCD ability. Pop Quiz: How many North Amercian players supported SVCD last year?

[SatStorm]

@offline: No, I mean exactly what Adam understood. It is reported to me and to plenty other forums, that many US R1 standalones, compatible with SVCD, don't play CVDs. I'll change that in the FAQ when and if the reports turn out different.
Also Apex is a made in china standalone, and includes I C-Cube parts inside. Ain's strange that it is compatible with CVD....

CVD is an old and forgoten format, needs time to find and re-construct it ourselfs and discover all the option it has.
It is not SVCD like. I believe that there are differences, beyond the frame size (resolution) and the file name structure. But looks like ain't that important on most cases. The goal is to find them all, and produce a universal solution, playable the same on both PAL/SECAM and NTSC world.
Untill then, DVD recordes gonna became cheap and fast enough, so perhaps all this is pointless. Well, I hope not! It is alway interest to know for those CVDs, 'cause we can use them on DVD-Rs later.
CVD is mpeg 2, and that makes it flexible!

[offline]

"SatStorm: @offline: It is reported to me and to plenty other forums, that many US R1 standalones, compatible with SVCD, don't play CVDs.

I agree 100%. This is my information as well.. (see the low % I quoted in the original post from VVD)

Also Apex is a made in china standalone, and includes I C-Cube parts inside. Ain's strange that it is compatible with CVD....

Of course not.. that's why I started importing them in '99...

CVD is an old and forgoten format, needs time to find and re-construct it ourselfs and discover all the option it has.

Ah HA. So you admit that you don't have the specs yourself? So
why is CVD audo only 44.1Hkz as you say?? It could be 22Hkz 4 channel for all we know ..hehe

Untill then, DVD recordes gonna became cheap and fast enough, so perhaps all this is pointless.

All human activity is pointless.

Life is a tale told by an idiot -- full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[SatStorm]

No, I have ALL the specifications myself. The original ones, of CVD! Ain't difficult to find, a google or Taoma search can give you direct from C-CUbe archives the first specifications.
Also, C-Cube produced in 1998 with Amoisonic, a CVD realtime recorder, later, they named the product "SVCD recorder" and send it to europe as well. More infos here: www.amoisonic.gr (hope to work). It is a link from Amoisonic Hellas. This CVD recorder, includes the well known CVD specifications I post on the CVD FAQ. By reading how this player records, you learn anything you wanna know for CVD.

Also, diging on translated old chinese newspapers, I found that there was an enchancment of CVD from C-Cube, one month before the chinese goverment force all the envolved parts to create the SVCD as we know it today. One of the things this enchanced CVD had, was that it was full supporting 480 X 576 as well as 352 X 576. Also, it supported both mpeg 1 and mpeg 2! Unfortunatelly, this enchannement never find it's way to the market
That is what I talking about....

I don't agree that all human activities are pointless. They have one priceless element: The fun doing them!

[offline]

Amoisonic always promoted their DVR players as being
able to record SVCD in China although the res was more
like CVD. (at 352x480(576)

The "late change to CVD specs" that you refer to is interesting. I bought
a VCD player in 98 that can play SVCD (480x480(576). This is some
time before the ratification of SVCD and your CVD spec change. Maybe
manufacturers were anticipating the failure of HQVCD and hedging bets
with a SVCD/CVD solution. After all, HQVCD was going to be more
expensive with double the bit rate requiring faster cd drives.

[adam]

SatStorm I read your FAQ and I know that you know CVD's dont use 48kHz audio, the problem is that your posts in the forum are somewhat misleading and as a result alot of people seem to be confused on this matter.

I think is more for US, about 40 - 50% of the players.
Most of the times the problem is the audio. US players don't like 48000khz on CD-R media.

Here you are saying that CVD's are less compatible on R1 palyers due to the audio, but we both know that's not true. If there were any compability problems with CVD vs SVCD it certainly wouldn't be caused by the audio because they both use the exact same audio specifications.

Satstorm I don't doubt that many R1 users are experiencing trouble playing "CVDs" on their standalones but I'm certain that most if not all of these cases are caused because the people are not complying with the CVD specs.

CVD IS identical to SVCD excect for the resolution and a couple very slight variations that basically just have to do with the naming of the files. There is plenty of documentation to support this.

If you look at the history of C-Cube and CVD I do not see how you can possibly conclude that CVD support is optional on some super VCD compatible dvd players and mandatory on others.

1) C-Cube is an American company.

2) They took on the government adamantly over the relatively small Chinese market yet just gave up all rights to the all encompassing worldwide market? (Remember no one knew that VCDS and SVCDS wouldn't sell outside of Asia. The winner of the HQ-VCD/CVD/SVCD competition was supposed to be a rival of dvd.

3) C-Cube invented the CVD standard and after SVCD became a worldwide standard they are now one of the worlds largest producers of SVCD docoding chips.

4) The very document you use as the basis for the information in your FAQ specifically says that any player that supports SVCDS is a Chaoi VCD player and that ALL Chaoi VCD players are also required to support CVD also.

[adam]

I agree.. However this does not change the fact that many ppl treat CVD as I do.. as an SxVCD of sorts.

You could say that for any format. If your not complying to the specs than you are not making a CVD, period!

ALL SVCD compatible dvd players are required to play CVD, regardless of what region they are.

There is no requirement.

YES there IS! It is required by government law.

I think you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a single Svcd compatible dvd player that does not also support compliant CVD's.

True.. but SVCD in the 1st generation was a Chinese only spec. The DVD spec says ziltch about compatability
with SVCD or anything else except CD DA audio.

And in its second generation it was a worldwide standard and all evidence suggests that CVD compatibility was retained during this standardization process.

I don't see what the DVD specs have to do with this. Just because a player conforms to one standard does not mean that it can't conform to another. Any player that supports the SVCD standard is also required by law to support the CVD standard as well. Whether or not this is a SVCD hardware player or a DVD player with SVCD support is irrellavant.

I've tested hundreds of players and I have yet to find one that plays SVCD's but not CVD's. At the very least the compatibility of CVD's is more like %90-95, there's no way its as low as %40.

Good on ya , however please read my post. I did not imply anything about SVCD and CVD. It is more than possible that all DVD players that can play SVCD can play CVD. The % was for all DVD players regardless of SVCD ability. Pop Quiz: How many North Amercian players supported SVCD last year?

Ok my mistake. I think its a very misleading way to describe CVD's compatibility though. It implies that CVD compatibility is not necessarily the same as SVCD compatibility, which it is.

[adam]

The "late change to CVD specs" that you refer to is interesting. I bought
a VCD player in 98 that can play SVCD (480x480(576). This is some
time before the ratification of SVCD and your CVD spec change. Maybe
manufacturers were anticipating the failure of HQVCD and hedging bets
with a SVCD/CVD solution. After all, HQVCD was going to be more
expensive with double the bit rate requiring faster cd drives.

HQ-VCD does not use higher bitrates than SVCD or CVD. HQ-VCD is simply a compatibilty modification of the SVCD standard that addresses issues with the scandata.dat file and the search.dat file.

[offline]

YES there IS! It is required by government law.

Can you point to the law and the government you are refering to?

[SatStorm]

Adam....

I wrote
I think is more for US, about 40 - 50% of the players.
Most of the times the problem is the audio. US players don't like 48000khz on CD-R media.

and you conclute that:

Here you are saying that CVD's are less compatible on R1 palyers due to the audio, but we both know that's not true. If there were any compability problems with CVD vs SVCD it certainly wouldn't be caused by the audio because they both use the exact same audio specifications.

Well, not exactly....

The first sentence is "I think is more for US, about 40 - 50% of the players". That is for the R1 DVD standalones

The next sentence is: "Most of the times the problem is the audio. US players don't like 48000khz on CD-R media."
This sentence refers to the problems you have, when you use 48000khz on CD-R media..
Let me express it better : Most of the times problems occur because of the audio: Many users prefer keep the audio @ 48000, but this is not standard. The standard is 44100. And expecially US players don't like 48000khz on CD-R media
I think now it's OK

The main problem with my posts in generall, is that I don't know english very well. I always think in my native language and then I translate to english. But I translate as is and many times with local expressions without understanding doing it. This may "mislead" some meanings I have in mind while I wrote them on paper (forums).
But I prefer some misleading (basicly all the problems I have come from US users, totaly different way of thinking and syntax in there exprensions), than not posting at all, because I believe I can help the way other helped once me. I took a lot of knowledge from the internet, and I want to give back somehow. It is my nature...
Also, if you search my posts, you gonna see that I am the only one ALL the time say "test first if your standalone support 48khz on CDs and then keep that samplerate"

From the other hand, your last posts in this specific topic, simply ehoing or if you prefer simply exrpess better what I once state for CVD, in this post or others. Now, perhaps it is better re-write this article in better English
I prefer it that way...

[offline]

HQ-VCD does not use higher bitrates than SVCD or CVD. HQ-VCD is simply a compatibilty modification of the SVCD standard that addresses issues with the scandata.dat file and the search.dat file.

I'm ready to believe you except my information is that the HQVCD specs
allowed at first up to SVCD rates, then 3500kbs and at the last stage was presented in a 4000kbs version which was supported by early VDR's but not many players re: the speed/price problem. When SVCD was ratified and HQVCD was included, the eariler spec of 3500 was included which is why the 1st gen Chinese DVD players were the 1st to support XVCD and SxVCD as we know it today.

[adam]

Satstorm I fully realize that English is not your native language and I'm not trying to blame you for being misleading. I just think the general consensus of people on this forum speaks for itself. Alot of people are getting the audio specs of CVD wrong and assuming lack of compatibility is a result of CVD's limitations when in fact it is just caused by their lack of compliance to the CVD standard.

[quote="offline"]

YES there IS! It is required by government law.

Can you point to the law and the government you are refering to?

Read the FAQ Satstorm wrote and read the documentation in the links in it.

I'm referring to the Chinese governement and the Super VCD compatibility specification which requires BY LAW that all SVCD compatible dvd players also support HQ-VCD, CVD, and VCD. In making SVCD a worldwide standard there is no reason to believe that they would not honor this compatibility specification, and in fact there is a multitude of evidence to suggest that they did. The most obvious evidence is the fact that every single SVCD compliant dvd player DOES seem to be able to properly playback CVD.

[adam]

HQ-VCD does not use higher bitrates than SVCD or CVD. HQ-VCD is simply a compatibilty modification of the SVCD standard that addresses issues with the scandata.dat file and the search.dat file.

I'm ready to believe you except my information is that the HQVCD specs
allowed at first up to SVCD rates, then 3500kbs and at the last stage was presented in a 4000kbs version which was supported by early VDR's but not many players re: the speed/price problem. When SVCD was ratified and HQVCD was included, the eariler spec of 3500 was included which is why the 1st gen Chinese DVD players were the 1st to support XVCD and SxVCD as we know it today.

That very well may be the case but the finalized version which is supported by the SVCD hardware compatibility specification only applies to HQ-VCD at SVCD'ish bitrates.

[Sefy]

Did you guys notice, that you tend to mix XSVCD with my SxVCD lately ?
I Know SxVCD is basicly an "XSVCD" but, I sorta came up with the name of
it, and yet it has become such a "hit" that most people now say "SxVCD" and
not "XSVCD" go figure

[Fozzee]

Wow
Am I a confused man now

Ok my DVD player plays CVD or XSVCD or what ever you choose to call it.
I've been led to believe that 1/2 DVD Pal is 352 x 576 Mpeg2 48hz.
I've been making CVD/XSVCD at 2520 bitrate with these settings.
They play fine in my DVD player.

Am I correct in thinking when I get a DVD writer I will be able to extract the video from these CDRs. Then without re-encoding burn them straight to DVDR and they will be 100% DVD compliant?

Cheers

Fozzee

[Sefy]

I Thought Half D1 was VCD resolution ? so all those that made VCD using
48khz Audio can burn that directly to a DVDR, you guys gotta make sure
everyone says the same thing, or it's gonna get confusing here

[magicmycote]

It is my understanding that HalfD1 is 352x480(576).

[Sefy]

Now I'll tell you why it doesn't sound like half, cause it's not half because:
Full = 720x480(576)
so how can half of 480(576) still stay as 480(576) ?? that doesn't make sense
Half would be = 352x240(288) which is VideoCD resolution.

[magicmycote]

Just dividing by 2 is not exactly the way it works...notice how 352 is not 'half' of 720. Go check out SatStorm's CVD guide for some background info on the subject.

[energy80s]

No, VCD is quarter D1 resolution and SVCD is nothing!

[Sefy]

I Know my math stinks (352x2=704) but half of 480/2=240, so I don't get it.
Doesn't matter really, so lets get down to the basics, what can you burn on a
DVDR = 352x480 or 352x240 ?

[magicmycote]

**edit**

woops, wrong thread!

[SatStorm]

Both...
Sefy, I once wrote a simply FAQ for the DVD video "Legal" resolutions, in this same site. I update it recently with some DVB new stuff.

Untill today, we know that DVD-Video supports 4 + 1 resolutions (the correct term is "frame sizes")

Full CCIR 601 (720 X 576/480)
Cropped CCIR 601 (or 1/1 D1) (704 X 576/480)
1/2 D1 CCIR 601 (352 X 576/480)
1/4 D1 CCIR 601 of better CCIF (352 X 288/240)
and the useless one: 1/2 Vertical D1 CCIR 601 (720 X 288/240). Some wrote that the correct term to discrube it is 1/2 D2 CCIR 601. I don't know if that is correct.

There are no bitrate limitations for the 1/4 and 1/2 D1 resolutions, like those we have with VCD and CVD. So, you can use VBR for 1/4 D1 framesizes and average bitrates way higher 1150. I prefer an average of 1500kb/s, gives me block free picture and real VHS quality that way.

[Sefy]

@SatStorm, thank you for the information, to make a long story short
You are saying that DVD-Video supports both VCD and CVD formats, but it's
not supporting SVCD (atleast from that list I didn't see it in there) correct ?