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  1. I'm trying to convert some 29.97 fps (NTSC) DV footage to 25 fps (PAL). I've tried a few different approaches, and they all result in horribly juddery video. Even enabling "Frame Blending" in Premiere seems to effect no discernable improvement.

    I would accept this, were it not for the fact that when I use the TV-Out on my graphics card (which produces a 25 fps PAL display), then playback the 29.97 fps AVI in full-screen, the motion is as smooth as a baby's bottom! Why can't software simulate whatever the TV-Out on the graphics card is doing?

    Is there any way (without spending a lot of money on a proper standards converter) to convert from 29.97 to 25 fps, and end up with smooth 25fps video?

    TIA!
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  2. try with the Tmpgenc converter...

    "OO"
    P3-1.4ghz Tualatin/Slot-T adapter/AX6BC/Matrox G-200 Marvel16mo/320Rams-133@100/SBLive oem/DR-CDrw 16X/Raceleader FF wheel/ 2 X WD Caviar 40G 7200 + Fuji 11G 5400 HDS/ Q71/Win98 top notch/DX9/DSL/and faith in a good pc setup...oo
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  3. Hi "OO".

    I tried TMPGEnc. It seemed to have fewer but larger "jumps" than Premiere's efforts, but still unacceptable, really. Also it can only squirt out MPEG, when I'd like to keep it as DV really.

    But many thanks for the idea!

    Has anyone got any other suggestions? I'm all ears...

    Many thanks in eager anticipation

    Trellis.
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  4. Sorry to follow-up my own post, but just to add that I have placed a couple of example files demonstrating the problem at:
    http://www.crumble.demon.co.uk/ntsc/
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  5. http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=285946#285946

    Look for my post.. although it mentions converting from 23.9 fps, Besweet should have problem no converting from 29.9 fps...
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  6. Hi, mh2360,

    Very nearly, but not quite

    It's perfectly smooth, but that's just because it's reduced the speed of action - so all the original frames are still there, just being played-out at a slower rate. Hence, my example file now runs for 12 seconds instead of 10.

    (Example at http://www.crumble.demon.co.uk/ntsc/ )

    Trellis.
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  7. I dont know much about the DV format, but my guess is that it is interlaced, VCD requires that the video is DE-interlaced... Virtualdub should do this for you...

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  8. Hi Trellis,

    Try looking in the help sections ("HOW TO"), and see how you can
    convert your movie.

    PS : Most Pal DVD players will play NTSC (all pc's will)

    so why bother converting?

    Greetz,

    Borgster.
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  9. mh2360,

    I tried enabling "Reconstruct from Fields", as you suggested. Now I seem to have the worst of both worlds - it slowed the action down *and* made the video jumpy (example file in the usual place).

    Borgster,

    I have had a look through the howtos, but couldn't find any description that matched what I wanted to do - unless there is something I have overlooked???

    The reason for converting is to generate a PAL tape from an NTSC original - the final destination being a PAL VHS cassette. I can do this via the TV-Out on the graphics card, but the quality is rather poor, hence the attempts to keep it DV.

    Trellis.
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  10. I'm not sure you want to inversetelecine this or not. I just loaded your original NTSC into Video Factory and made a PAL out of it. When checking the "resample" box, the output is smooth. Without checking the "resample" box, the output is jerky. So, your experience with TMPGEnc makes sense, but I don't know what is up with your Premiere attempts. It makes sense that TMPGEnc can't do a decent frame rate conversion since it can't do a decent audio sample rate conversion. In the audio sample rate conversion from 48k to 44.1k, it simply throws out audio samples. For NTSC to PAL frame rate conversion, it simply throws out frames. The result of this throwing out of frames is the jerky performance.

    Now, what is the actual mechanism for Premiere to code MPEG? Perhaps if you made an interim PAL AVI DV file, then convert that one to MPEG, it would work for you. Just a guess.
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  11. Member
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    I have also tried just about everything in VCDhelp Forum but cannot get a really smooth result when converting DV NTSC to PAL. (29.97 fps to 25 fps) You would think someone would have solved the problem by now as much interest as there is. Canopus has software that claims to do good conversion but it is too spendy. There is also a newcomer called DV Tools: http://members.chello.hu/mezei.attila/dvtools/
    They are working on NTSC-PAL conversion and it is downloadable (with watermark} It does a fair job of NTSC to PAL AVI conversion but I found it somewhat buggy on my machine. It is more flexible than Canopus on AVI formats. It may show promise if they gets the bugs out. Still kinda spendy, they want $98 to remove the watermark.
    I can't help but think with some of the talented people in this forum that someone will eventually come up with a solution that really works.
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  12. Member
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    Originally Posted by Feuerwehr
    I have also tried just about everything in VCDhelp Forum but cannot get a really smooth result when converting DV NTSC to PAL. (29.97 fps to 25 fps) You would think someone would have solved the problem by now as much interest as there is. Canopus has software that claims to do good conversion but it is too spendy.
    I'm not sure about DV, but I converted NTSC DivX to PAL VCD by first loading the DivX into Virtualdub, setting Video>Direct stream copy, altering the framerate to 25fps and re-saving the avi. This increased the length of the avi. Next I saved the audio as an uncompressed wav file, and stretched the wav using Soundforge to the new length of the avi. This worked perfectly.

    In case you doubt the relevance to your case, any system which converts from NTSC to PAL whilst maintaining the original length (in time) of the sample does so by discarding frames. This can only lead to a perceived jerky effect. By regrouping the frames in batches of 25 the sample is effectively lengthened, but there is no introduction of jerkiness. The method I describe does increase the length of the sample, and the pitch of the audio drops slightly. I would think that this is far less noticeable than the introduced jerkiness. 8)
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  13. Ooohh. So many new things to try

    House de Kris,

    Thanks, I will give VideoFactory a try - I see they have a demo version available for download.

    Regarding Premiere, I did do it all in DV - just MPEGized the files to put the on the Web. The output was just as jumpy in raw DV, even with "Frame Blending" turned on. Considering the price of Premiere, it does seem spectacularly inept at some tasks

    Feuerwehr,

    The DVtools converter looks like it might just do the job, but as you say it is a little pricey, although nowhere near the cost of a proper (hardware) standards converter. I will give it a try, though - thanks.

    I have seen the Canopus converter - that *does* cost as much as a hardware standards converter, and is limited in only accepting Canopus DV files!

    Like you, I am surprised that this is turning out to be such a difficult thing to do. When I first discovered I needed to do it, I thought "Oh, that'll be easy" - How wrong I was

    banjazzer,

    I did try the "slowdown" method (just reducing the framerate), but it does make a big difference, and destroys the audio in particular. It's OK for converting 24fps to 25fps - this is only a small increase in speed which is acceptable, but the drop from 30 to 25 is too much IMO.


    Thanks everyone for the tips - I'll try a few more things and report back how I get on. If I manage to find a good method using free tools, I would be prepared to make a "Howto", if anyone thinks that's a good idea ???
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by Trellis
    I did try the "slowdown" method (just reducing the framerate), but it does make a big difference, and destroys the audio in particular. It's OK for converting 24fps to 25fps - this is only a small increase in speed which is acceptable, but the drop from 30 to 25 is too much IMO.
    I can see that that could well be the case. If you were converting to SVCD, what about converting to 24fps first using the NTSC(film) template with inverse telecine? Just a thought. 8)
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  15. If you are converting NTSC to PAL the reason you are getting stuttery playback is because TMPGenc does not do the framerate conversion very well. With a little extra steps however this can be solved.

    Here is how I do my framerate conversions

    1) Extract wav file from avi using Virtualdub
    2) Load avi into avifrate prog (find it using google)
    3) Change fps to 25 in avifrate window
    4) Note new time of movie in seconds and write it down
    5) Apply the 25fps change to the movie in avifrate and close avifrate
    6) Load wav file into cooledit prog
    7) Use the stretch option with maintaining pitch and low precision options to stretch the audio to the exact length of the video as per step (4)
    8) Save the stretched wav
    9) Encode the avi to 25 fps PAL in TMPGEnc using the avi altered by avifrate as the video source and your stretched wav file as the audio source

    Hope this helps

    Olli
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  16. Member
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    Originally Posted by Olli
    Use the stretch option with maintaining pitch and low precision options to stretch the audio to the exact length of the video as per step (4)
    This is similar to what I suggested, except it maintains the pitch. I didn't realise you could do that! I shall have to have a play. 8)
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  17. Use Besweet to convert the audio from 23.976 to 25 fps, Cool-edit takes <<FOREVER>>
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  18. Hmmm ..When I use cooledit it only takes between 5-10 minutes to stretch a wav for a full movie.

    I do have an XP2100 though so it may take longer/less time on different machines
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    It takes a lot longer if you have *enable undo* ticked!
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  20. Thats why then
    The guide I followed included 'untick enable undo'
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  21. Having a bit of trouble working out how to get VideoFactory to do it - can someone help?

    DVTools did it brilliantly, BTW. With proper video clip and "interpolation" turned on, it worked really well. Some bits of the image seemed to lag behind occasionally, but it's vastly superior to anything I've tried so far, including Premiere! It comes highly recommended, although I can't justify the price tag for a one-off job, unfortunately
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  22. Recalling from my foggy memory, here is what I do in Video Factory 1.0.
    After the clip is added to the time line, go to File, Render, and select the MPEG coder with the PAL VCD template. Then click the Customize button. On this dialog, then click the Resample Video box on the first tab. It is near the bottom. Close this dialog with an OK and save the render. If you don't click the Resample Video box, it will be jerky like TMPGEnc.
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  23. Cheers - I'll have a play and see what happens.

    Thanks to all who've helped - much appreciated!

    Trellis.
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  24. Originally Posted by banjazzer
    Originally Posted by Feuerwehr
    I have also tried just about everything in VCDhelp Forum but cannot get a really smooth result when converting DV NTSC to PAL. (29.97 fps to 25 fps) You would think someone would have solved the problem by now as much interest as there is. Canopus has software that claims to do good conversion but it is too spendy.
    I'm not sure about DV, but I converted NTSC DivX to PAL VCD by first loading the DivX into Virtualdub, setting Video>Direct stream copy, altering the framerate to 25fps and re-saving the avi. This increased the length of the avi. Next I saved the audio as an uncompressed wav file, and stretched the wav using Soundforge to the new length of the avi. This worked perfectly.

    In case you doubt the relevance to your case, any system which converts from NTSC to PAL whilst maintaining the original length (in time) of the sample does so by discarding frames. This can only lead to a perceived jerky effect. By regrouping the frames in batches of 25 the sample is effectively lengthened, but there is no introduction of jerkiness. The method I describe does increase the length of the sample, and the pitch of the audio drops slightly. I would think that this is far less noticeable than the introduced jerkiness. 8)
    Actually standards converters don't discard frames. It discard fields which makes the convertion much less jerkier. I don't know how to write programs. But what this program has to do is:

    NTSC -> PAL
    in each second of NTSC video (60 fields) divide in 10 sections of 6 fields example:

    ABCDEF|ABCDEF|ABCDEF|ABCDEF|ABCDEF|ABCDEF|...
    in each section of 6 fields discard field C and D alternitavely like this...
    ABDEF|ABCEF|ABDEF|ABCEF|ABDEF|ABCEF|...
    now you will have 10 sections of 5 fields giving 50 fields each section

    NTSC
    AB->1 frame
    CD->1 frame
    EF ->1 frame...

    PAL

    AB-> 1 frame
    DE-> 1 frame
    FA -> 1 frame
    BC -> 1 frame etc...

    Lengh of video will be the same because its blending fields to PAL to form a new frame.

    PAL -> NTSC
    in each second of PAL video (50 fields) divide in 10 sections of 5 fields
    example:

    ABCDE|ABCDE|ABCDE|ABCDE|ABCDE|ABCDE|...
    in each section repeat field C and D alternitavely like this...
    ABCCDE|ABDDEF|ABCCDE|ABDDEF|ABCCEF|ABDDEF|...
    You will then have 10 sections of six creating 60 fields/sec

    If someone could acomplish this by writing a program then I think it would solve the problem.
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  25. Member
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    Fine. It discards fields not frames, but the conversion is not perfect, and if you read any detailed account of the procedure you will appreciate how the result cannot be perfectly smooth. The only difference is you have twice as many fields as frames, but in essence what I said was correct. 8)
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  26. Simply use the "do not frame rate conversion" option in Tmpgenc, this will process EVERY frame, it will change the length of the clip though, so the audio will have to be stretched/shortend depending on the conversion...
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  27. If you look closely to any converted picture broadcasted on TV you will notice that it isn't 100% smooth, when there's fast motion you will see slight jittering. There is NO WAY of making a 100% conversion. It will never look as good as if it was a recording of the same system.
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  28. Yeah, I know it'll never be perfect, but most things I have tried so far have been absolutely diabolical!

    I couldn't get the demo version of VideoFactory to do it, but I managed to borrow a copy of Vegas Video 3.0c. If you turn on "Resample" (as suggested here) it makes a very good job of the conversion. There's still a bit of jitter and it's not *quite* as good as the DVTools dedicated converter, but it's perfectly acceptable.

    I assume VideoFactory uses the same algorithm as Vegas Video, so First Prize goes to DVTools, with Vegas Video / VideoFactory coming in a close second. Booby prizes for the most hopeless conversions go to TMPGEnc, VirtualDub and Premiere!
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  29. Been reading all the above threats with great interest. I have a problem
    with jerky video, mostly percieved when the camera is panning. This jerkiness is CYCLIC, which makes me think it is an NTSC to PAL conversion problem.
    Scenerio: I capture video from cable TV using a Matrox Marvel, which produces a MJPEG AVI. On some, but not all captures, a cyclic jerkiness is noticed when the camera is panned from right to left or the other way. So this is not a TMPEnc problem, as we are still at the AVI stage. Stepping through the panning section frame by frame using VDUB, I see that the cyclic jerks are actually video that is blurred or out of phase. If I delete these bad frames, the video is then OK but the audio is chopped. I see it on the original TV broadcast, though not as acutely noticeable as in my
    SVCDS (maybe the TV is more forgiving). Now, since I am watching the cable tv broadcast in Australia, I assume the transmitted picture would already by in PAL. My theory for the above problem is that the suspect footage (documentary or whatever) was filmed in NTSC, and the jerkiness that I am seeing is a result of watching it on a PAL system. Therefore, it would be of no use to try and convert the cable tv transmission from NTSC to PAL as it probably already is (jerky) PAL......
    Any thoughts or comments greatly appreciated.
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  30. Trellis - Your test video will probably not look good with any conversion that does not use motion estimation techniques. It represents the absolute worst case for the conversion, and only a very sophisticated technique can do a credible job of conversion. The software tools you've seen use a technique called "4-field" conversion. These will show a noticable "jutter" on your test video for your money. Motion compensation devices cost even more.

    If you are seeing something acceptable on your TV-out from your graphics card, then I would guess you are seeing a completely asynchronous conversion. I'm pretty sure that no conversion system uses this. If your test video was scrolling horizontally, you'd see why. The image would visibly tear as parts of two frames (fields) were visible at the same time.

    Anyway, try this with some actual video (you can try it with your test video, but you probably won't be too impressed): http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=90816 and see what you think. It will still have a tick now and then on panning (but then again it's hard to tell the difference between my hand shaking and the conversion), but I've tried to minimize it to a field rather than a frame...and it is absolutely worth what you pay for it .

    Xesdeeni
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