Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[oryan_dunn]

Hi all,
This is my first post here. I'm relatively new to video editing and so far this site has been very helpful. As suggested, I used the search function and came across this thread, although 58 pages is quite a long thread, and the 20% or so of this thread I've read didn't cover the problem I'm having.

I've got a set of the Star Wars Special Edition DVD's that are a copy of the 1997 LD Special Edition that I'm working with (I know, I know - I plan on picking up the new TR47 anamorphic transfers of the originals once he is completed with them). These disks are letterboxed widescreen that are somewhat washed out. My goal is to create an anamorphic transfer (I have an HDTV that doesn't have a zoom mode in progressive scan) with a picture that isn't as bright and washed out. I've been able to get the color, brightness, and hue corrected as I want them, but I've been having trouble with the frame rate. The tool that I'm currently using is TMPGEnc with the built-in tools. I've also got the anamorphic working properly (I cut the frame down to just the movie, added black mattes back in and set the 16:9 flag).

My main question is regarding the frame rate. I've played the dvd in dgmpgdec and it reports that it has a frame rate of 29.970 and it is interlaced. How, using TMPGEnc would I get this exact frame rate transfered to my new file? Should I somehow try to do a deinterlace, or leave it alone? Also, are there any tools out there that allow me to adjust the color, brightness, etc. and do resize/crop on Mpeg2 streams without the need to for recompressing the file? Since my source isn't that high quality to begin with, I'd like to avoid any unnecessary recompression.

Thanks,
Ryan

[Karyudo]

It's early, and I gotta get to work, so this is going to be brief:

- You'd better detail how much black matte you added back in, because what I don't read is that you scaled the picture, which you'll have to do to get an anamorphic picture.

- I believe there's an excellent guide to using TMPGEnc to do IVTC on Doom9.org's forum. Check there.

- You don't want 29.97fps; you want 23.976fps. Which you'll get from TMPGEnc if it does the IVTC properly.

- DO NOT DEINTERLACE. Sort out IVTC, and it's unnecessary.

- I don't believe there's any way to colour correct or otherwise mess with an MPEG-2 file without recompressing. That's a bit like wanting to change the font on a document you're photocopying.

[oryan_dunn]

It's early, and I gotta get to work, so this is going to be brief:

- You'd better detail how much black matte you added back in, because what I don't read is that you scaled the picture, which you'll have to do to get an anamorphic picture.

I apologize for not being clear on this.
Yes, I did scale the image. The source is 640x480 which I cropped to 640x288. In the same Clip frame tool of TMPGEnc, I used the arrange setting of "Center (custom size)" which I set to 720x360. The ouput Mpeg2 file has a size of 720x480 with the 16:9 flag set.

- I believe there's an excellent guide to using TMPGEnc to do IVTC on Doom9.org's forum. Check there.

- You don't want 29.97fps; you want 23.976fps. Which you'll get from TMPGEnc if it does the IVTC properly.

- DO NOT DEINTERLACE. Sort out IVTC, and it's unnecessary.

I'll have to experiment a bit more with the inverse telecine. I tried the IVTC in TMPGEnc, but I got an output that had extremely visible interlacing artifacts showing up as the horizontal lines on moving objects. I am currently using only a section of the file (by means of the Source Range) because I didn't want to reencode the entire two hour movie to get my color settings correct. I have a hunch starting in the middle might be throwing off the IVTC giving me unacceptable results.

- I don't believe there's any way to colour correct or otherwise mess with an MPEG-2 file without recompressing. That's a bit like wanting to change the font on a document you're photocopying.

I had a feeling that there would be no way around recompressing.

I've been reading some more, and I am currently trying to learn AVIsynth to use that in combination with DVD Decrypter, DGMpgdec, and CCE. In addition to the interlacing artifacts, I believe I'm also getting some resize artifacts as well.

Since my source material is not the best, this effort may be all for naught. If I want a good anamorphic transfer, my only option may be to buy the Laser Disks and an LD player and go from there.

[Mythos2002]

I had a crazy idea. I was wondering how it would be to first capture the LD's to a D-VHS deck and then capture to the PC. I know you can't use the Firewire port on a D-VHS to hook to a PC, but you could still use the S-Video or Composite cables. I'm not an expert on D-VHS, so I don't know if capturing first to it would cause more problems or not.

Hopefully, Vhelp, Lord Smurf, gshelley or someone else could shed some light.

Mythos

[vhelp]

Well, my take on this is, try it

I've used my advc-100 on my laserdisc player and find that so far, it
is the holy-grail of quality (minues the 411 issue) and then the
Winfast TV-2000XP (expert) capture card second place. The reason I
gave the winfast card a 2nd place (in my round of preference) is on
account of the line noise I am still suffering from w/ my given pc
setup. Dispite the many suggestions, I still can't shake this noise
issue loose. So, its the advc-100 as usual.

If your bitrate is too low, as in most VBR type encode process, the
end result will prove pixelation, and mostly in darker scenes where
it is most evident. There are two kinds of pixelations (or, in this
case, maybe is actually known as marcroblocking artifacts in dark
and low bitrate scenes)

I have found that the best way to archive (or transfer) a Laserdisc
video is to use the highest bitrate, and break the project into small
60 minute disks. After all, you are trying to transfer w/ maximum
quality. In this case (is my OP) that CBR 9000 (or higher) bitrate
is in order. Couple that with a clean IVTC method, and you'll have
a near-match transfer or the original Laserdisc.
.
But, the downside to some Laserdisc transfer projects are with the IVTC
process. There are various methods to IVTC, and choosing the right
one will show in positive quality results.
.
As I was saying.. The downside w/ IVTC, is not the process/method, but
rather with the video on the Laserdisc 's Telecine was done properly,
or with no edits or other post-process work, finalized onto the Laserdisc
once and for all.
.
Star Wars has many broken Telecine patterns ...
.
Take the Star Wars disks. Both the "original" and "SE" versions have
the same issues with the Telecine. That being that the Telecine are
(shall I say) broken in various sections through out the movie, per
disc. When I said in so many words, "..and choosing the right one will
show a positive quality result" (speaking on IVTC method) I ment that
as long as there are no glitches in the Telecine, then *any* IVTC
process/method would work, issue-free. But, with (for example) the
Star Wars discs, they have broken Telecine patterns throughout the
discs. Not the disc, but the video stored onto the disc (Laserdisc)
.
In order (using the Stars Wars as an example) to have a flawless IVTC
process, you have to find every broken Telecine pattern (something I
mentioned in past pages on this thread here, that I would catagorize
and post here, but haven't - yet) And, to do that, you have to capture
every disc. Its best to capture on a per-disc bases, and examin each
AVI for broken Telecine patterns (the 3:2 as in PPP:ii PPP:ii PPP:ii)
and deal with those. Very briefly, (I'll post this tip again here)
to do this quickly..
.
* load your avi into your best editor that has IVTC processes
* set your frame start, at the first PPP (ie, [P]PP:ii)
* and begin your IVTC.
* .
* then, examin the video for any signs of stranded Interlace.
* if you find any, you know that AVI has some broken Telecine
.
The above is the quickest way of determining broken Telecine patterns.
(and you deal with them) I can't go deep into the advancement level of
this (shall I say) "shirlock holmes" process here, because IVTC (this
process) deserves a separate topic all together.

But, once an perfect IVTC method is applied, and as I was saying about
the quality level w/ CBR 9000 bitrate per 60 minute disc projects, all
would come true, with a perfect IVTC process. That is the key to sucess,
of a proper transfer. The ingrediant is:
.
--> laserdisc[plyr] -> capture_device[s-video] -> ivtc -> 60min_disc -> MPEG-2

Going for 2 hr -r/rw disk is going to give you a so-so transfer, because
this would undoubltly incorporate a mult-pass VBR process w/ some form
of bitrate calculation as part of the process. In this case, the quality
(IMO) even more so, will vary from Encoder brand-x to Encoder brand-x.

My v-rule of thumb here is like this. Always start at the top. That is,
start with the maximum. Ok. That is, start w/ high bitrate, and try to
duplicate the Laserdisc image quality. Don't start with a VBR method
and then go comparing frames. To me, (IMO) that's a few step backwards.
Start maximum (only you know, based on your past expereinces what that
level is) and work your way down. My starting point is always CBR 9000
bitrate. If I need more, I know I can bump it up a notch. If I (find)
I can use less, then I will bump down. But, bumping down, (when your
project goal is 60 minutes (they are in mine)) is pointless for for my
60 minute per-disc base.

Think about it. Most DVD movies are Dual-Layer, to hold aprox 2 hrs w/
very good quality results. My given setup is single-layer. So, in my
calculation, 60 minutes is good enough for me. Besides, I can always
transfer these 60 minute -r/rw disks to DL as one, later.

That's about it for now.

-vhelp 3411

[Karyudo]

I was wondering how it would be to first capture the LD's to a D-VHS deck and then capture to the PC.

I really doubt that this would be of much advantage. D-VHS will cap HD, but I doubt it'd be recording in HD if fed NTSC, which is what the LD would be. At which point you're introducing some compression artifacts right off the top. Doesn't sound too smart to me. But what do I know? I guess it depends a fair amount on what sorts of internal components are being used to do the ADC and comb filtering.

All things considered (including price, and flexibility) I think you'd be better off to use a relatively-budget 9- or 10-bit plain-vanilla cap card to go straight to HuffYUV RGB or YUY2, and not have any lossy compression at the digitizing stage. The files would be large, of course, but you'd have control over (or at least knowledge of) each component affecting the ADC, and you wouldn't immediately be going to a format -- MPEG-2 -- that is good for playback but not for editing.

If I had the money to buy a D-VHS deck, I'd donate it to The X0 Project (http://www.x0project.com) instead of trying to do it all myself...!

[Mythos2002]

Thanks for the information Vhelp and Karyudo.

@Karyudo
The D-VHS idea was just an idea I was entertaining. I actually don't have the funds for one right now, but I was thinking about saving for one. I doubt if I will get one though since it captures at MPEG-2. That would add an extra undesirable step as I know I would have to recapture that MPEG-2 into an AVI file. I already knew I would have to recapture since the Firewire ports on a D-VHS would not act as outputs for a PC.

I may need to save up and buy a PDI Deluxe card. I have two capture devices now, but I don't know if they would give me the quality I'm after. I have an ADVC-100 which only captures in DV and a Winfast TV2000 Expert which I need to do some more testing with. I like the ADVC-100 for audio sync, but I don't know if there is a way to get back the colors since they will be compressed from 4:4:4 to 4:1:1.



As far as the X0 Project, I will probably make a donation at some point when I get the funds.

@Vhelp

Thanks for the IVTC information. It is a real pain to do it properly with the DC LD's because the pattern gets crazy at some the side changes due to them having a telecined frame that has to be dropped which occurs right after or during a scene transition. I may also get the Faces LD's to capture a few frames to take care of the side changes. I used to use TMPGEnc Plus for IVTC, but I will use Virtual Dub this time and IVTC each side. I will also capture the small parts where the pattern is broken and IVTC them separately. Finally, I will do the necessary editing and join them together.

My final goal will be Dual Layer, so I'm going to shoot for each film being on one disc instead of two.

Thanks.

Mythos

[pstedman]

OK, it's been over 2 years since this thread has seen any activity, but I'm looking for a suggestion. I've scaled back my original plan to convert my Definitive Collection LD's to DVD to just putting all the supplements on DVD

I've capped everything, but I'm stuck on what to do with the still galleries. I can only think of 2 ways to do it.

1. My preference would be to create a slide show where the user presses the step forward button to advance just like the LD. However, the thought of converting each still to an image and then creating a slideshow in my authoring program makes me groan. As the parent of a 2 1/2 year-old my time to devote to this hobby is limited.

2. A simpler and less elegant idea would be to capture as I'm manually advancing the slides in realtime (counting ! mississippi, 2 mississippi, 3 mississippi advance). Not exactly perfect either.

I's love to hear any other suggestions or ideas I've missed.

I'm capturing in Premiere Pro via a Canopus ADVC100
I'm authoring in Adobe Encore 2

Thanks in advance for any suggestions

[dphirschler]

I'd do the 1 mississippi 2 mississippi thing. In fact, I already did. Except I haven't captured the stills from the first movie yet.


Darryl

[DereX888]

OK, it's been over 2 years since this thread has seen any activity, but I'm looking for a suggestion. I've scaled back my original plan to convert my Definitive Collection LD's to DVD to just putting all the supplements on DVD

Whoa, if you haven't finish your convertion yet in those years, perhaps its time to change your objective?
Like "convert my Definitice Collection LDs to HD-DVD"...

[bourboner]

Ain't the originals on DVD now anyway, perfect quality? Didn't Lucas cave in to fan pressure?

I must say I respect the attitude behind this thread though, those originals shit on the "reduxes" in so many ways, especially that 1st one, the original. The remastered version "A New Hope" is ridiculous in so many ways. Stupid!

[Noahtuck]

Ain't the originals on DVD now anyway, perfect quality? Didn't Lucas cave in to fan pressure?

I must say I respect the attitude behind this thread though, those originals shit on the "reduxes" in so many ways, especially that 1st one, the original. The remastered version "A New Hope" is ridiculous in so many ways. Stupid!

1st, this thread was started almpst 6 years ago 8)
2nd, exactly, he slaughtered the originals by adding crap & editing, oooh... we can't have han shooting first, to mention one F'up

[MJPollard]

Ain't the originals on DVD now anyway, perfect quality? Didn't Lucas cave in to fan pressure?

He did, but as far as the originals on DVD being "perfect quality"... eh, not quite. They didn't get the cleanup treatment that the SE versions did; also unlike the SEs, they're 4:3 letterboxed, not 16:9 anamorphic, which is practically unforgivable given the growing number of widescreen televisions these days. It's a perfect example of giving people what they want, but using the back of your hand to do it.

[FulciLives]

Yes the original theatrical versions were released but I didn't buy them because the word was this: they used non anamorphic 4:3 Letterboxed prints that were clearly not remastered in any way/shape/form.

Also the only way to get them was to buy each of the three movies individually and you still got the SPECIAL EDITIONS with them ... not just the THEATRICAL EDITIONS.

Once I read that I decided NOT to buy them ... although I must say I did "break down" months before hand and bought the SPECIAL EDITION trilogy box set (the one with the extra DVD with documentary making-of stuff ... now out-of-print).

Anyway as you can imagine this disappointed a lot of people that the THEATRICAL EDITIONS were "dumped" onto the market in such non-remastered crap ass versions that all said and done weren't much better than what you can do yourself from the LaserDiscs.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DereX888]

You know, for what its worth - I've compared once those unedited theatrical versions from Lucas' DVD with the WS LD transfer to DVD I got years ago from my friend, and there is no comparison. My friend did better job than the studio LOL

[dphirschler]

From what I read the Lucas' DVD is a transfer from LD. I've never done the comparison though. I did manage to pick up the first movie because it was $4.99 at Best Buy and I had a $5 off coupon. I've been meaning to do the comparison for while.


Darryl

[pstedman]

Whoa, if you haven't finish your convertion yet in those years, perhaps its time to change your objective?
Like "convert my Definitive Collection LDs to HD-DVD"...

LOL! Like I said I've got a 2 1/2 year-old so my time devoted to hobbies is limited.

dphirschler, thanks for the suggestion. 1 mississippi 2 mississippi it is.

[Marco33]

So I was playing with my AVS software and just for fun took the RTJ-BR and started making cuts. Works real good. Smooth transistions in cuts. The music can be a little rough but it's working good. What did I cut? Stuff like the music sequence at the palace and I snipped the Rancor a bit. I found it laughable that he gets out by shoving a bone in it's mouth. Right after the guard gets eaten I cut right to the part where luke runs through it's legs to the door. I cut the whole part about the Ewoks cooking everybody.I'd like to change a sound bit. The part where Han says "Ican see better now". I want to change it back to the original "It's alright trust me". Going to try cuting the sounds from the original dvd and past it into the BR.

[yoda313]

Ok thought I'd dive in here with a question.

Would it be worth the hassle to reencode the dvds that have the original laserdisc dubs to anamorphic and upmix to 5.1?

My thinking is to get a widescreen verison of the originals without using the "zoom" button on my tv and having a passable 5.1 track from the dolby surround that the disc has.

My real question is should I even bother?

My reason for wanting a 5.1 upmix from a dolby surround track is I don't like having all the sound pumped through the subwoofer - I much prefer a more discrete subwoofer track that the real 5.1 gives you.

My main predicament is I don't have an amp with dolby prologic 2 that would give me a realtime fake 5.1 track. If I did I would simply use that mode and live with zooming the original dvds and leave it at that.

But since I might go to the trouble of remixing the audio so to speak I might as well force the video into 16x9 and sparing the zoom.

So has anyone done this with their official laserdisc dubs that were packaged with the special edition dvds in that release they did a few years ago?

Is it worth it at all or should I just live with this crippled dolby surround letterboxed version and save the time and hassle?

[Marco33]

Haveyou tried the dvd’s with the original versions. They are rips from the laserdisks. That would save you some trouble. Not sure what the sound is but youcould always convert it. But as for the video, probably better than you doingit yourself and a quick re-encode through AVS with get you from Letterbox toregular widescreen.

[yoda313]

Haveyou tried the dvd’s with the original versions.

Yes that is what I was referring to.

quick re-encode through AVS with get you from Letterbox toregular widescreen.

Do you mean avstodvd? or avisynth?

[Marco33]

Haveyou tried the dvd’s with the original versions.

Yes that is what I was referring to.

quick re-encode through AVS with get you from Letterbox toregular widescreen.

Do you mean avstodvd? or avisynth?

My mistake. I meant AVS Video converter. ...? It's been so long I might have used dvdRebuilder for that. Try dvdrebuilder first it's free.

[yoda313]

@marco33 - thanks. I don't know when I'll start this but I'll keep that in mind.

[dwisniski]

Do a google search on Dark Jedi's V3 encodes of the bonus discs, or check out originaltrilogy.com. I think you might find what you're looking to do has already been done.

[yoda313]

Do a google search on Dark Jedi's V3 encodes of the bonus discs, or check out originaltrilogy.com. I think you might find what you're looking to do has already been done.

Ok I'll check it out sometime. THanks.

[yoda313]

Ok my first attempt isn't a perfect success.

I ripped the A New Hope bonus disc to movie only and ended up with a 6gig (more or less) video_ts folder. The problem is the default settings for dvd rebuilder shrunk it to 4gigs to fit a single layer dvd. Where are the bitrate settings in dvdrb? Can you tell it to not shrink the output?

The other problem is forced subs, IE the huttesse language for Greedo. The subs apparently didn't get encoded. Is there a forced subtitle option somewhere? Oh by the way I am using mpchc to playback the converted folder.

Other than that the widescreen output does look very good. Of course since these aren't the restored versions its grainy as hell but its the untouched version so I'll live with it.

I haven't tackled the virtual 5.1 yet. I may not and just live with the original pro logic audio.

Thanks for advice on bitrate settings and forced subs with dvdrb.