Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[vhelp]

Maybe the extensive cleanup gives us too much transparency into the filmmaking process? Maybe dirtier, grainier film looks more like a document of an actual event instead of a staged "movie"? It's possible that the new image feels sterile to me because it is so clean. It's also posible that I just want to be back in 1977.

In the theater, ..for me, it was back in 1983, "Return of the Jedi"
.
If you want to bring back those fond memories (in its more 'original' look)
then you have to use the old originals (they usally sell for less on ebay,
cause no one really understands the true nature of this endeavor or relism)
.
Also, if you want to go back.., then you must use the widescreen, because
that is how they were presented back then. Not full screen
.
And, when viewing the 'old' look, the original version will be less in color;
and will include hair; smuges; and left over markings, etc. to name a few, on
the final video of these Laserdisc. But that's as close as you'll ever get,
to the real thing, and re-experience

Over the weekend, I was messing around some more with my originals and SE
versions..

.. I've grown to like the SE versions. This is the only Laserdisc set I prefer
.. over the latest release of the new DVD set that came out September 21st, 2004 !!

But there's no beating the original's feel. That's why you have a bunch
of peoples (like us) here, re-living the moment, in these laserdisc transfer
to DVD's.
.
On laserdisc, I have the originals and SE versions, and also the new DVD
box set to my collection. My endeavors are aimed at the originals though,
as this is my fun hobby. And, I love trying to get better results as ideas
come to me, or I learnt a new something or variation technique to try on
these.

TIP or not ...

FWIW.., one of the most dificult aspects of transfering the older LD's,
is in the scenes that are dark, such as space scenes. And, on the very
first Star Wars (now, ep 4) it's the worst transfer to laserdisc (though
I've heard others say that ESB was worse) I haven't made up my mind 100%
just yet, but ANH is the most dirty, IMO.
.
Also, you might want to be weary about various scenes being cleaner than
others, or vis-versa. You'll run up against many such scens, but don't
get discuraged and stop. For example, when Luke is at OB-1 's house,
and they are talking, you can see a lot of noise or "hatches" around the
areas of lukes face and hair, and other scenes in OB's house. Those are
just a few examples of places where you'll see noise. I think that they
cleaned up some of these scenes in the SE laserdisc's. But don't worry. I'm
only pointing those things out to you so that you are better prepared - and
still be happy.
.
If you use a 2-pass encode method, you'll have problems w/ dark scenes.
I think it's just the way Encoders handle their bitrate distribution.
.
At the moment, I'm slowly working on a special template (along w/ a
roadmap or tourguide, if you will) for those that want to make the best Laserdisc
to DVD transfer posible. But this has ben a long over due idea I had in
mind, and wanted to do for many here. Well, expect it soon - this year
.
For maximum quality, I think for most 'casual' (not so skillful) users,
the best approach in screen size, would be to maintain the widescreen aspect
ratio of 4:3 (keeping it letter boxed)
.
But, for the more advanced user (myself included) I would suggest a
16:9 Anamorphic process and final convergence.

I'll post yet another sample soon (my prov is closed today) so that some
of you can compair up against, or gauge against your own. But, until then,
I'll see you around.. in space perhaps.

-vhelp 3103

[Joel V]

Also, if you want to go back.., then you must use the widescreen, because
that is how they were presented back then. Not full screen

Yeah. I want the fullscreen discs for the added resolution. I was toying with the idea (see earlier posts) of using the fullscreen combined with uprez'd widescreen. I am still curious, but less likely to try it than I was.

For example, when Luke is at OB-1 's house,
and they are talking, you can see a lot of noise or "hatches" around the
areas of lukes face and hair, and other scenes in OB's house. Those are
just a few examples of places where you'll see noise.

I haven't looked at the LDs in years, but are you sure these hatches are noise? AFAIK, the Tattooine stuff was filmed with pantyhose-type nylon stretched over the camera lense, lending a sort of hatched/star-filter/diffused look to the shots. It's more obvious in some shots than others. Is that what people are calling noise? I mean, it is noise, but it's intentional.

I'll look at the discs when I get the players, hopefully this week.

[Joel V]

Tonight I got home from a short trip to find that both of my new LD players had arrived!

I quickly hooked up the DVL-700 and opened the Special Widescreen Edition of Star Wars. I was seriously underwhelmed by the noisy picture and tinny sound (this was through the coax digital audio out!)...NOT the revelation I had hoped for.

With lowered expectations I brought out my Definitive Collection box. THIS is stuff I could live with. Still noisy, but a much cleaner picture than the SWE, and the audio is incredible! I have gone through a few scenes (time is limited tonight), then compared the players. I am much happier with the picture and sound of the DVL-700 (vs. the CLD-V2600 industrial player). I prefer the DVL-700 in every way to the other player including features, track access time, dual-side play, and so forth.

First impressions: I like the color depth and superior, full-resolution PCM audio of the LDs as compared with the commercially-released DVDs. I prefer the DVDs in the areas of image clarity, color consistency, and stillness (vs. the jumpy horizontal lines and occasionally twinkly stars presented by the LDs).

I will post more when I get more time to use the players and discs. I am awaiting shipment of a "Faces" Star Wars LD as well.

RE: The "noisy" scenes in SW (eg the interior at Obi-Wan's house), yeah, it looks pretty grainy. I will investigate further

RE: "emotional impact"...The Definitive Collection is the best "feeling" set so far. I can't wait to see the "Faces" version.

[c_hernandez32]

I had a quick question, after I won my first Star Wars Definitive Collection, I ran into an Episode 1 LD. The user claimed it was the theatrical version and had Japanese subtitles and LD-G. What is different in this version? And are the subtitles completely in the black or are they in the movie during certain scenes?

[Karyudo]

Episode I is 2.35:1, so there is lots of room for subtitles below. The Japanese Collector's Set and Special Edition(s) all have the subtitles wholly in the black bar below -- no intrusion into the picture. I would guess (note it's only a guess!) that Ep I is the same.

[Japanese HDTV often has hard subs in the picture, though as I understand it this is contractually required.]

[Joel V]

I am happy to announce that I will begin my LD transfer to DV this weekend, possibly as early as tonight.

I was EXTREMELY lucky to happen upon a professional I/O box (an AJA machine) that I can borrow for the weekend. If the results look good, I will post a pic or two ASAP.

-Joel

[vhelp]

@ Joel

I have a sneaky suspission that my LD (D701) 's laser heads are
dirty. I have never cleaned them. But, I'm running a test on this
now. I'm using my CLD-V2600 player, since I haven't used it in a
very long time. If I see the same level of noise (or square hatches)
I'll report back.
.
On the subject of noise.., I you mentioend that they actually put a
pair of p-hose on the lens. I know I've read this elsewheres on video
filming, but I still don't really get the benefit (or realism) for this
activity. Never the less. Video is in the eye of the Director.

-vhelp 3120

[Joel V]

Hi again Vhelp!

Hee hee I have the same sneaky suspicion...I will clean mine and see if I see a difference.

re: the pantyhose thing, I think the intent was to make the scenes look otherworldly, and the occasional glare/flare does look pretty cool. IMO, though, it mostly looks kind of dirty.

Off to clean.

BTW, I just read all the computer requirements for the kick-butt AJA IO box I'm borrowing...I have serious doubts that I'll even be able to use the thing. For starters, AJA recommends the use of a 4 Hard Drive RAID array! We'll see how it goes...

[Joel V]

I have finally done some capturing! Almost 15 minutes worth of SW footage.

Below are a couple of screen grabs from my very first transfer of Definitive Collection Star Wars disc one. We successfully got the AJA IO running on my buddy's G5 at around 1AM this morning.





There is good color depth (I am transferring to 8-bit, uncompressed DV) and detail. The blacks are excellent but the dynamic range dioesn't look as great as the X0 caps I've seen. I was beginning to wonder about this when my "Faces" disc arrived today.This seems to have more vibrant colors and brighter whites so that'll be transferred next.

One question, though: In the grab below, Leia's shot is only two frames long yet both of the frames got the "interpolated" treatment (they were the "2" in the 3:2 pattern).



What is going on here/how is this possible? I think I've seen discussions of this type in this forum already, so if someone could just point me in the general direction where I can find some answers, I'd appreciate it. More coming soon!

[haloblack]

re: the pantyhose thing, I think the intent was to make the scenes look otherworldly, and the occasional glare/flare does look pretty cool. IMO, though, it mostly looks kind of dirty.

There are a few reasons you'd put hose over the lens, actually. Depending on the thickness/weave of it it can soften the picture up a little, break up light sources, add diffusion, and (my guess in this case) keep sand out of the lens. The first Star Wars shoot was a lot more guerilla than the rest, so I'd lay odds that it was just the DP and 1st AC trying to keep the camera running longer.

/Film student
//Finally able to show off some acronym knowledge
///Not lying at all about the pantyhose

[vhelp]

When you capture from any source, it is always Interlaced. Always.

INTERLACE vs. PROGRESSIVE vs. FILM, etc ...
(Note, 720x480 and 720x240 pixels)

* Pure interlace - ie, dv cam footage, where every frame is interlaced at
.. (720 x (240*2 Fields) pix) and each x240 field is an image in Time or
.. to put in other works, a different pic @ each x240 Field.
.. Examples of sources with this Source Type are: news; sports; games; talk shows..

* Progressive - ie, every frame image is x480; or x240 Field same pic
.. Examples of sources with this Source Type are: some tv commercials; HDV cams..

* Film (aka, Telecine) - ie, every frame image is x480 and frame pattern is 3:2
.. where 3 frames are x480 progressive and 2 frames Interlaced (ie, as in your Leia's
.. pic) Leia's cought inside the 2 interlaced frames you posted above.
.. .
.. And IVTC step would fix that, and bring all the 29.970 fps frames (3:2 pattern)
.. back into a 24 fps progressive frames, and from there, the Enc. would add back in
.. (flags) to tell your player to play 29.970 fps all over again but would still
.. be in 24 fps progressive.
.. .
.. To reverse sources (ie, your cap of Star Wars) 29.970 fps (ie, 3:2 pattern)
.. back into Film (ie, 24p) you have to perform an IVTC method to the AVI.
.. This can be done in Post (ie, AVI editing) or During the encoding stage (ie, TMPG)
.. It would bring down your 29.970 fps to 24 fps (or, 23.976 fps) all frames as
.. progressive x480 pixels. Your encoder can include certain flags inside the source
.. MPEG-2 (not supported in MPEG-1) that tell the player to Interlace certaine frames.
.
note, many examples have been posted here in this thread, many pages backward,
or you can do a search on 'IVTC' and you'll find a great many example code
snips on how to this.
.
.. Examples of sources with this Source Type are: Movies; DV cams 24p;

I think that about covers it.

RE: Pioneer Laserdisc -- CLD-D701 vs. CLD-V2600 ...

On the subject of my previous issues with the quality of my D701 player, so far, it
seems that either the lens is dirty, or something else is at fault there. I'd
prefer to clean the lens myself, if I knew how, with a cotton swab maybe. Anyways.
I found my V2600 reproduced the quality much better. Go figure.

oh well. Back to more fun testings and things. What a great hobby

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 3135

[Joel V]

ah-HA!

I think my problem is that I misunderstood what IVTC does. I had assumed that IVTC-ing would simply remove the interlaced frames. I hadn't done the math, obviously (30 frames minus 12= 18 frames/second! oops).

Instead, IVTC takes each pair of interlaced frames and puts 'em back together into one progressive frame, right? OK.

Thanks vHelp and others who have had to read this stuff yet another time!

I also have to sadly report that I've got bigger problems -- dropped frames in my initial capture. Tonight I will capture smaller pieces and see if that avoids the problem. I have to return the IO on Tuesday morning!

[Joel V]

Whoa.

I just did a search on "X0 Project" and got this...

http://www.x0project.com./

I would assume that this is related to Laserman, Zion, and MeBeJedi from the OT boards, but I've never seen mention of it anywhere. Does anyone here know anything about it?

[dphirschler]

Just a login/password screen. What should I be seeing?


Darryl

[Joel V]

That's all I'm seeing, except for the message:

"Somewhere in space, this may all be happening right now..."

This is from the first Star Wars theatrical trailer. If you try any ol' name and password, you'll get:

"This isn't the site you're looking for.** Move along..."

So someone's doing something with Star Wars and the x0, which we already knew. The fact that there is a website is intriguing, though...

Still struggling with IVTC,

joel

[Eandtc]

"dropped frames in my initial capture. Tonight I will capture smaller pieces and see if that avoids the problem. I have to return the IO on Tuesday morning!"

You can still use this capture! In VirtualDub, apply IVTC, and parse forward through the video until you see errors. This would be where you dropped a frame. Save from the beginning to this point and you have your first segment.

From the error on forward, change the manual IVTC values until you find the cadence again. Parse forward to the next error, and save that segment again.

When you are done with the main segment, go back and join the new segments that you just saved.

I had a capture that dropped a frame in the last 2 minutes (I was watching when it happened, so I knew where it was). I started a new capture just prior to that spot. IVTCed both segments, and then split/joined them on a nearby scene break. Much easier than recapturing the whole thing (and risking another dropped frame.)

You might want to try a different program as well. Of the several I've used, the MainConcept capture program (included with the encoder) has given me more consistent captures than any other programs.

[flaninacupboard]

I just bought a definitive collection set on ebay, so yet another bout of playing and testing to come.....

[Eandtc]

LOL....sadist. :P

[flaninacupboard]

Yeah.....

I want to do an LD/DVD hybrid, but i also want to remain sane. not sure about this project!

[dphirschler]

Make Luke's light saber blue this time.


Darryl

[vhelp]

You could do this at the 'pixel and luma/chroma' level (if you're an artest,
and good with colors) ..And you would have to work with all frames, every
field, top and bottom, and that includes the interlace frames.
.
With the pixles (luma/chroma) values, is a matter of fine-tuneing the color
values for each, but making sure you don't cross-link boundaries (bitmap
talk) incorrectly.

For Example..

In opening scene, after Vadar takes Laie's ship, and the scene is where the
two robots are arguing about what to do next.., notice the doorway, (where
another scene is taking place) and you see fighters running in a leftward
direction, look at the doorway, the wall to it's left, you'll see some
lights, blue and red. Noticed how rich in color the blue is. It was
touched up. And the only way you can do it, is on a pixel/luma/chroma
approach. Because we lack the tools (they used) it would be a much more
laborous process.., though still do'able. But, I would say it requires
an artist at best.

Below is my rough draft of what I consider to be the approach:

Laserdisc Parser and Color Resampling flow:

Extract frame from AVI time-line -> insert into BITMAP grid -> editor ->
resample pixel/luma/chroma color values -> reinsert BITMAP into AVI time-line

..every frame.

The above would make a good (though long and exhastive) re process
endeavor indeed. Definately something to keep one busy for a very
long and fun time

-vhelp 3168

[dphirschler]

Actually I was thinking something along the lines of this. For those wondering, I am speaking of the scene in which Luke is practicing with the light saber onboard the Millennium Falcon.

Process:
In AviSynth, take the scene in question and make a copy under a new variable name. Then apply a levels filter the darken everything except the brightest whites while brightening the whites enough to get all of Luke's light saber glow. The goal is to get a mask with nothing but the glow of the light saber. Maybe even do a gaussian blur over it when you have it done.

Then create a blank clip with nothing but the proper shade of blue.

Next, layer the blue over the scene using the mask you just made. Tweak it a little and there you go.

This is all easily doable in Avisynth.


Darryl

[Joel V]

Darryl-

That is a great idea. If it truly is "easily doable in AVIsynth", I can hardly wait to see your results!

After Effects and/or combustion would be a fairly simple fix, as well, but I don't know the exact steps yet. What I've done in the past for this sort of thing is to use AE to export the frames as a .tif sequence, alter them in Photoshop, then re-import the sequence as film. This is close to the old-fashioned (SLOW) style of rotoscoping, but you have ultimate control over the end result.

Again, I'm curious to see your results. If there's an "easy" way, even a "relatively easy" way, I'm all for it.

-Joel

[EddyH]

no larger of a job than the original lightsaber creation, surely?

someone had to go over every frame of every fight / use of the saber and add it by hand, scratching over the guide of the tubes the cast held (to make the hard-white solid part) and then airbrush (?!) the glow in somehow...

[Mythos2002]

Wow. I didn't know there were any new posts here. I haven't been getting the replies in my e-mail, so I assumed no one has posted.

I've had to put my project on hold, but I hope to get back to it soon. I might try to clean my LD player as it takes a very long time for the door to open and I have never cleaned it. I bought the special chamois (sp??) q-tips and solution from Radio Shack.

Mythos

[kicko]

i was wondering what was happening with this project, i wanted to take my old vhs set from the last thx final set before the SE in 1997, and buy a dvdr to do a quick convert, not sure how this would turn out but just wondering.

[akrein62]

Now that I finally have a computer with some horsepower it's time for me to revisit this project. I'm sure this has been asked before, but could someone, please, post or PM an avisynth script that has been used successfully to convert a laserdisc avi capture to mpeg2. Please? I'm caturing with HuffyUV and using Quenc to convert.

Thanks,

Andy

[BKL]

Anybody know if CAV LDs produce a better picture than CLV? I have Episodes 4-6 on CLV with a relatively unused Pioneer CLD-V2800 and the images seem grainy and, w/ fast motion, blurry. I have seen the CAV set on eBay and wonder if the quality is worth buying an additional set.

[gshelley61]

That is usually true (CAV being superior to CLV in image quality), but it also has to do with how good the transfer was to begin with. The earlier Star Wars LD's don't look very good, CAV or CLV. You're better off with the later releases. I can tell you that the CAV Definitive Collection box set looks much better than the CLV "Faces" set (there's some noticeable LD smearing artifacts on those). The Definitive Collection is considered to have the best video quality of the all the releases (I haven't seen all of them, so I don't know that from personal experience). I do have some of the early Fox Video CAV releases in 4:3 aspect ratio, and they are grainy with some pretty bad smearing.

Another example I am personally familiar with is the Criterion Collection "Blade Runner" LD's. The CAV version looks much better than the CLV release - clearer and more defined with less noise.

[BKL]

gshelley61, thanks for the info.