Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[vhelp]

@ grimby

I'd like to see your opening shot of ANH if that's possible. (right after the crawl and up to the star destroyer passing overhead) I'm curious to see how other people's star fields are turning out.

I'll see what I can do.

Last night, I got lazy (tired) and fell asleep inside my nap
Actually, I was working on my "Showgirls" LD because I was curious to see what
a *newer* LD would come out (based on my color setting inside TMPG) and that's
when I took a nap (during some test encodes) pfew.
.
I was testing some 16:9 widescreen encodes.. *my way* ..rather than the specs
given a particular Movie. Anways. I think I'm settled on a widescreen setting
inside TMPG for my purposes. (I'll demo it for ya, in your requested SW sample)
But, personally.., I'd prefer to keep the Aspect Ratio the same (4:3) because with
Laserdiscs, the format was not stretched or Anamorphic'ized (like DVD's are today)

Oh.., and thanks for the request. Check in later. I'll have a sample ready. I'll
keep you posted

-vhelp

[vhelp]

DOWNLOAD ... - # 37 -

Here's the requested sample clip. Remember to use winRAR v2.90 to extract MPEG file.
--> vhelp.starwars.laserdisc.sample.opening.advc.rar

I did not use the 411 filter on this. Because there are not that many red areas
in the video to filter this, plus not all red areas are as badly "checker boxed". So
I decided not to bother with it (for the time being) and make do with what I have so far.

Enjoy,
-vhelp

[Mythos2002]

Looks pretty good Vhelp. It seems a little dark, but at least your starfield appears stable. Also, the clarity of your encode is excellent in my opinion. By that, I mean that there isn't a lot of noise or haze over the image.

I've been trying to do my encodes a little lighter, but then the starfields get a twinkling effect. Hopefully, I can find a happy medium when I get back to work on mine.

Have you checked out the new version of TMPGEnc 2.5 I mentioned? I really hope the full Plus version is released soon since it has a template for 8.5Gb DVD's.

Keep up the good work.

Mythos

[vhelp]

.. It's Turkey Eve

@ mythos

No, I haven't checked out the latest TMPG version just yet.

I'm still using an older version which seem to be pretty satisfiying so far.
The version that I'm still using is v2.520

And actually, I think that the video I uploaded looks lighter, but not too light.
As long as it looks good on your TV set.., that is what really matters. But IMO,
that sample looks good on my tv and pc.
.
I also did a little messing around w/ Empire Strikes Back (my favorite) and I
really liked the way it came out. I did some dark scenes (space scenes) and
I was quite pleased at the results. I changed my filters color settings on this one,
but just a tadd from my ANH encode.
.
I think that what really makes these encodes look so good is the fact that
the lack of Noise from the captures (from ADVC-100 device) that I used.
For the time being, I can live w/ the DV 411 issue, since it's not throughout
the whole source

Cheers,
-vhelp 2828

[Eandtc]

tedkunich:

"Encode @ 23.976 and run pulldown.exe on it afterwards (prior to authoring)"

I'm having trouble getting PULLDOWN to run on the MPEG. Does it need to be in m2v format?

[tedkunich]

I'm having trouble getting PULLDOWN to run on the MPEG. Does it need to be in m2v format?

If by m2v format you mean an elemental stream, then probably yes - but don't hold me to it. That is all I ever output out of CCE - video only.

I use a batch file to run pulldown with the following syntax:

 pulldown somevid.mpv somevid.m2v -drop_frame true

By default CCE's extension is mpv, so I rename it in the batch for my authoring apps to recognize it. Also, put the app and your source vid in the same directory.

Good luck.

T

[Eandtc]

"If by m2v format you mean an elemental stream"

Yes, that's what I meant (I couldn't remember the term. ) I'll try it tonight.

[Mythos2002]

Well, TMPGEnc Plus has finally been updated. The new version has a template for 8.5Gb DVD's, so my hopes of doing a dual layer version correctly seem to be getting closer. I just hope the -R DL writers come out before too long. I'm hoping that a model will come out that does both + and - DL so I can do compatibility comparisons. Anyway, it is going to be interesting.

Mythos

[Eandtc]

If anyone's got any FTP space, I designed an opening crawl based directly off the few seconds of the crawl from the EOD documentary. It's 44 megs, but it looks pretty good.

[bhouseman2004]

I've had all 3 of the original releases converted to DVD for about 6 months now, but I'd be interested in some feedback on the quality of my encodes.

I only used a TBC to clean up my laserdisc versions and then digitized via VirtualDub with ATI All-in-Wonder, encoding to MPEG2 with TMPEG. I left the video 4:3 interlaced, rather than converting to 16:9 progressive (which I have done with other movies since then) because of the subtitles involved mostly.

If anyone is interested in reviewing it for me:

http://fire.prohosting.com/bhousema/swintro.zip

The file is actually an .MPG, simply rename after downloading.

[Eandtc]

Just an update. I have a friend who has been able to get uncompressed transfers from a Pioneer X0. I'm looking forward to an excellent transfer with no dot crawl.

[DereX888]

wow :> this thread is still goin on? its gotta be the oldest thread alive on this forum?

[DivXExpert]

I'd say one of the stickys would have to be the oldest. Baldrick could probably find out.

[vhelp]

@ bhouseman2004

I finally found time to look at your sample mpg clip your Uploaded. I had
thought it was 160mb ( ..and gave up on it back then.. ) but fuond out it
was only 16mb I guess I need my checked.

I'm not sure why you even needed a TBC to begin with, because there simply
is not any issues that come up w/ Laserdiscs units that would require a
TBC to be in place. But, no harm done.

Aspect Ratios ...

Actually, it's probably better to leave it in 4:3 ratio.. for the a few
simple reasons (but don't let that stop you) of the following:

* laserdisc output is usually soft (though, that may vary on a cap dev bases)
* laserdiscs are not anamorphic, and they are just plane vanilla 4:3 ratio.
* If you stretch the video to 16:9 (by Anamorphicizing the video) there
.. is a good chance that you'll dramatize any noise that might be aparent
.. inside the captured video, making it more noticable. But I would
.. suspect that this will depend upon the person who is doing the video
.. editing and encoding, cause the skills/technique level will make that
.. determination.

Another reason why people *do* make their videos Anamorphic (from a 4:3)
is simply because they either have or are planning on a widescreen tv
set. And that would make the experience that much more real and enjoyable
to them.

I'm not saying that you should not Anamorphic'ize your final project. You
can do it. As long as it looks good to you (based on your skills level)
And, I encorage you to try it. It might turn out better than you expected.

.. If you have a widescreen tv set, I would do a few test encodes and see
.. how they look. You may or may not like them. But, the better your
.. skills level, the better are your chances of making this aspect of the
.. video transfer/conversion all the more better

Interlace vs. IVTC method you used ...

Because this movie is just that, a movie (aka, Film) yes, I would have
recommended an IVTC step (there are many different types applied in a
given project, such as yours) in yours. However, speaking on your
behalf, I would use one of those external types, such as Decomb or others
that are used in AVS scripts. Why ? Because this were designed to
work in a sort of "auto" mode. They find the places that need to be
IVTC and they make it so. When they hit up against an od set of frames
or whatever, they kick into another gear and incorporate a step to bring
those frames into progressive'ness. If you know what I mean. So I say,
let these types of IVTC be incorporated into your project when working
with your video transfer.
.
When you encode to Interlace (29.970 fps straight through) anytime there
are Horizontals (flat surfaces) you see them "strobe" sort of like. As
in your clip, where you see Vadar's ship approaching the Princesses.
This is something that you'll see on a pc monitor (unless you turn a
feature on, to BOB it - you don't want to BOB it, cause it will make it
look soft. ..aka, blurry)
I don't think that you'll see this on a regular tv set because, after
all, tv's are Interlaced. However, *you will* notice some degration
or pixelation in your final encode of of this. Because every 4th and
5th frame is Interlaced, the encoder has to encode this. The encoder
will see this as noise or whatever, and encode as best as it can. That
is why you see *more* blocks in them, during these Interlaced frames,
than you would if not, and your source was 29.970 fps Progressive.
.
By incorporating an IVTC step in your project, you will be cutting
about 20% away from the fat. That is, you'll gain 20% more quality,
because instead of the equation (bitrate) working on 29.970 fps, it
is working on a 23.976 fps (on a Frames Per Second bases) and that's
about 6 frames per/sec less to work with. Hence, a raise in quality.
.
This is why so many people learn about IVTC. But, you only perform
an IVTC on a given source avi file ONLY if the source origianted from
Film stock. But even if you know that for sure, there will in some
cases, be issues along the way. Here's where I'm finally coming around
for ya ...
.
On these laserdisc sets, we know for a fact that this is a Pure Film
transfer (to an extent anyway) and as such, an Telecine was incorporated
somewheres during the process of puting it onto laserdisc. The problem
is, during their "editing stage" they left several bad cuts along the
transitions or scene changes. These bad cuts *throw off* an IVTC.
If you go the manual IVTC route, as I do, you'll have to make a stop along
each way, for a bad cut or glitch in scene change. ( these glitches
that I'm refering to, are "broken 3:2 patterns" ) And, the only way
to work with this type of source is with an IVTC filter that has a
better made engine that catches these glitches and deals with them
for you, (in a sense, in auto mode) and give you the best frames
possible.

IVTC, and my special (and personl) note ...

When working with Film sources, and Analog capture cards, you have to
make CERTAIN, that you *are not* droppping any frames. The slightest
drop will throw off your IVTC, because the 3:2 pattern is not maintained
or is skiped somewhere. And when an IVTC in employed, it will hit up
against one of these bad 3:2 patterns and improperly invert the frames,
and leaving you with new Interlaced patterns. That is why you have to
be CERTAIN that your card is NOT dropping any frames. That is another
reason why so many peoples have be jumping onto the ADVC-100 device.
Simply because it will not drop a single frame, AND will not go out
of sync with the audio.
.
So, if you're capturing w/ you ATI card, be sure you're not using MMC
here. Becuase MMC (based on my Experience and Knowledge w/ it) it
will not report back an accorate account for frames captured. I've
seen where the % (percentage gauge) would be at ZERO PERCENT, which
would indicate that there were no dropped frames, but in the end,
there were. Only, because on a large scale (as it uses) 2 drops in
frames is next to nothing when you've captured say, 30,000 frames.
Its only natural that MMC will report 0% (or zero percent) in it's
capture window. (This use to drive me insaine) Anyways.
.
So please be aware of this, when capturing w/ your ATI card under MMC.
I would recommend using another capture app, if your GOAL is to incoporate
an IVTC step in your project. But it not, then don't worry, and continue
using MMC

Your clip ...

When I first saw your clip, I noticed how in the space scene, it looked
sort of GREENy in the Left dark areas. Then, at the end, I also notoiced
that the space scene looked on the BLUE side. That confused me a lot.
I went their and tried it out myself, using my ADVC-100 device, and I
did not see any of these changes. So, I tried it with my ATI Rage Fury
card, and still did not notice it.
So, I suspect that either it's a PAL version, or you simply have a LD
that is weird or else it's your capture card color setup. Maybe
you incoporated a small modified color settings for the capture, and
this was the result.
.
However, I also suspect that you are using some sort of Filter in your
editing/encoding phase.
.
Are you using one of those convolution type filters ??
From my memory of using 2d/3d type filters, they have the tendency to
distort or displace the color information if the values are not balanced,
and although you don't always catch it in lighted scenes, you end up
finding them (issues) in the dark scenes. I'm just pulling them out for
ya to see now.
.
I'm not saying that your encode is bad. I'm just saying that I noticed a
few of these things and I'm bringing them to your attention, at your
request - Thats all
.
I have a few issues of my own, with these laserdiscs, though on the older
ones. The ones that you have. These are mugh lighter in color, becuase
they are the first generation sets before the SE 's came out. Almost
all of the Star Wars sample clips that I've Uploaded for you all, were from
my SE disks. I like the SE disks a lot. But I also have the Original disc
sets as well, and I'll probably post some more sample clips when I get around
to it. Anyways.

For the time being, I've made it a rule (in my projects) NOT To use
any exteranl devices during the capturing phase (unless you absolutely
have no other alternative) And the reason is simple. Eleminate all
possible items that might taint the video source.
If you're having issues with respect to capture quality, from your
LD player, it could be the player that is at fault here.

I have the two Pioneer laserdiscs: CLD-V2600 and CLD-D701 models

What is your Laserdisc make and model number ??

Some people get better results if they use Composite connectors, while
others (I for instance) say that S-Video is my best route.


From the video workstation of,
-vhelp 2983

[Mythos2002]

That's a lot of information Vhelp. I was curious about your use of S-Video. Do you use S-Video with the ADVC-100? When I did, I noticed dot crawl. Did you have to use filtering to get rid of the dot crawl when using S-Video with the ADVC-100? I remembered you said you didn't have any dot crawl when you used S-Video with your Winfast card.

I was wondering if anyone has the official DVD's. I'm not asking because I plan to use them, but I am curious about where they put the layer breaks. Where did they put the layer break in each film? What scene was that in each one? I ask all of this because I plan to go the dual layer route. Since my source will be strictly the LD's, I will have a different running times from the official DVD's, but I may place my layer breaks during the same scenes they did when they created the DVD's.

On my first attempt, I split each film up onto two DVD-R's. Disc one of ANH ends right after Takin says, "Terminate her immediately!" and disc two starts with the Falcon in hyperspace just before reaching what is left of Alderaan. Disc one of ESB ends where Yoda is looking disappointed because Luke took his weapons with him to the magic tree. Disc two starts with him peeking in the hole/entrance of the magic tree. Disc one of ROTJ ends where Han says, "And hurry up will you? I haven't got all day." Disc two starts where Luke approaches Leia on the Endor village balcony to tell her about Vader and stuff. When I do my dual layer versions, I may use those scenes for the layer breaks. I was happy with ANH and ESB's, but ROTJ's was not the best scene to use. That is why I ask what scenes they used on the official DVD's for the layer breaks.

Thanks.

Mythos

[vhelp]

Hi Mythos2002

Well, I think that its very important to utilize this technique when
dealing with sources that you *KNOW* for sure, that is FILM and is
Telecine incorporated
.
Incorporating an IVTC step is crucial in the area of quality because
it serves many areas of the process..

*) it reduces the number of actual frames that have to be processed
.. (encoded to MPEG) thereby increasing the chances of better quality
.. MPEGs, as well as other areas of benefits.

*) it helps eliminate filter isses (due to the Interlaced frames) and
.. the more Progressive frames you have, to deal with, the better are
.. your results, vs. Interalced and Progressive frames inter-mixed
.. results.

*) it helps in keeping the final MPEG size down, and so on.

But, in order to take advantage of an IVTC step, is that you have to
know how to determine your source, wether it's feasable or not, and
also, if there are glitches (that you can catch) and deal with them as
they appear, etc. But the key here, is the *knowing how to tell*
what the source is. Is it true film, or is it a modified film (meaning
that it won't adhear to the IVTC (3:2 patter) princaples.

.. this I speak of, in particular reference to the issues I mentioned
.. w/ respect to the glitches I found in the Star Wars disks during
.. the scene changes. That that 3:2 pattern gets cut off too early
.. or too late, and either an extra Interlace is thrown in, or out
.. to keep the movie "fluid". In my OP, it's a botched job, but in the
.. 's of TV sets, its not. Because it's interlaced, and you don't
.. ever see glitches in tv sets. So, to the pros that produce these
.. mediums, they don't particulary care if a frame is bothced or not.
.. Hope you understand by now

Regarding "DOT.crawl" (part 1) ...

Winfast ...

When I used my winfast card on many test captures of these LD' disks,
I was mostly using my "Show Girls" disk. I came to the conclusion that
the "." crawl was due to the source on the disk itself. That is.. how
it was transfered. When you look closely, depending on the scene (and
the laserdisc) you can actually see the "." crawl. For more than a
year, I've ben waisting my time trying to get rid of them, when all
along, they were always there!! Not by the capture card, but there
on the disk medium themselve. My "Showgirls" disk is loaded with them,
and they are pretty pronouced. I used this disk in the majority of
my test captures, and encodes. The Star Wars disks, were just my
inacent bistands, because when I first noticed this "." drawl issue,
it was when I first got my LD player, and the "Showgirls" disk. Later on,
I finally received my Star Wars disks (both original and SE versions)
They have these "." crawls as well, but not as pronounced as my
"Showgirls" disk.

Regarding "DOT.crawl" (part 2) ...

There are two kinds of these .dots that I think we are seeing or refering
to, in our issues w/ captures and the devices we use to obtain them.
.
It's my OP, that the .dots are there on the disks already. Waiting to
be discovered by someone keen.., like myself
.
The other "form" or "variation" of .dot is the [].dot (or hatch or
checkber box) I sometimes refere to thense as "checker box" hehe.
This is due to format of the CODEC's algorithem in producing a given
image in a grid. It has something to do with the way the color is
sampled across than axis (did I phrase that right?) And that's where
the 411 Filters (all kinds) come into play here.

@ Mythos..

I'll try and post a pic of the .dot I'm refereing to later on. I'll use
my LD (OT ver) and my DVD commerical I purchased the same it was released :P
.
.. as you know, that DVD's went through a re-decaprio and I must
.. say, that the quality is very good. The artest that repainted every
.. scene pixel did a superb job. The colors were resampled very richly.
.. Anyways.
.
I rememberd a scene where I saw a big difference in this phenomina when
I first got the DVD's back in Sept 2004. So, I'll be looking for that
scene and demo it later. ..until then.

The actual secret to this .dot stuff is simple. Its already there. It's
always ben there. We just didn't see them. That's the trueth. But I'm
here, (in this thread) dumping it in you laps, like it or not. But, I
think that the key here, is what I laid out above. That there are TWO
kinds of this phenomina. One is already ben there, and the other is:
.
A) either/or an exageration of the .dot already there, and/or
B) is a whole separate issue w/ respect to CODEC algorithem/format BUG.

If you forget about A) as being your only issue, you'll be that much closer
to understanding what it is you are dealing with and resolve it (or not)

I chose to comprimise this A and B issue for the time being. Its only
minor in a few scenes, and only requires that I don't go looking for it.
Still, it would nice to rid both, once and for all
.
So until then..

-vhelp 2984

[Karyudo]

The actual secret to this dot crawl stuff is simple. Its already there. It's
always been there. We just didn't see them. That's the truth.

No, it's not the truth. At least, not necessarily. The likely culprit is the comb filter in your LD player. And this comb filter error is responsible for both problems (i.e. those you label A and B).

Still, it would nice to rid both, once and for all

Buy a Pioneer HLD-X0! That's the current state-of-the-art.

[vhelp]

@ Karyudo

The funny thing about this all is that my old GE 20" TV set does not have
any RCA plugs. Everything is Coaxle cable. You have to screw the output
of the source to the TV set. And, from my understanding of things, this
is the worse "source type connection" around ..

* Coaxle cable - - - - - < - - - my VCR -to- TV set --<<
* RCA (or composite)
* s-video
* component
* ect

And from where I sit, I can't see the .dot 's (unless I really look for
them, which really shouldn't count) But I'd love to even have this much
quality in my captures if it means no .dot 's and good quality. Every
thing I throw out to this TV set (through it's Coaxle cable) is always
clean and mean - great quality. Anyways.

There is another side to this .dot issue. How much of it is in the source
already. Forget about these comb filters. I was looking at a VHS that
I taped during the New Years eve countdown, and a show was on, "Just shoot me"
and I happen to tape a piece of it, in EP mode. When I captured it with my
ADVC-100 and encoded it, I noticed that there were no .dot 's in the RED
areas. I started to ask myself a bunch a new questions (today) what is
going on here ?? anyways.. I'm still dumfounded. But, until I know for
sure, from my understanding, and eyes the .dot 's are already in
the source before capturing it. If it's not there in the source, it wont
be, when you capture it, as in my perfect example above. And this came
from a DV device ..more stumps.. Anways.

I always thougth the the Comb Filter was strictly for the S-video outputs.
Now, I'm hearing that its only for the Composite connects. And, now I'm..
Well, you get the picture.
.
My question though, is.. what Connects is this Comb Filter applied to ??
(in vewing the above list of connections)

Cheers,
-vhelp 3002

[bhouseman2004]

@ vhelp

I'm using a Pioneer CLD-D501 for my capturing, with VirtualDub.

When you compared them to your captures, did you capture the original editions or the SE's? You mentioned that the SE's have cleaner video especially in the black areas.

Also, I wanted to mention that these were already encoded to fit on a single-sided DVD-R (the profile I used will fit nearly 2hrs 20min), so I'm
not sure if the encoding introduced some of the "space scene" discolorations (because I didn't apply ANY filters to this video).

What's this Pioneer HD-XO everyone keeps mentioning? I wasn't aware that Pioneer had made a new player for quite some time. How new is this device?

[vhelp]

@ bhouseman2004

>> Pioneer HD-XO ...

As to the this player, I think that it was probably its last one, and people
are refering to it as the latest one (that's probably correct) and its
still selling. Check on Ebay. That's where I got both my laserdisc players.

SE and OT versions ...

Yes, the SE additions have cleaner video (they touched it up, but not
to the point (or as well) as they did w/ the DVD's)
.
The original (or, OT's) were probably just a plain vanilla dump of the
video onto the disks (however they do them, back in the LD days of things)
and not much restoration was done, if any.
.
On the OT disks ...
.
If you ask me, someone just stuck a pience of film in the drive door, closed it,
and press play, and record on each equipment -
.
On my OT disks, the background does look dirty in all. But, I think it
also has to do with the capture cards ability to capture all the info it
does.. plus the laserdisc player's abilities too. So, I good recipe is
in order. I just haven't really spent a lot of time on each of them to
the point of going nuts - yet.
.
I did not apply any filtering in my Encodings because I came to the conclusion
that in most cases, Filtering will ultimately ruin or bring down the quality
of the project. The most I'll apply in filtering is color. And even that is
applied very carefully. Every so often, I start from scratch with a disk
or two, when I get a brainstorm idea or something that I want to try out.
Heck. These are my disks, and players and capture devices and not to mention
my free time. So I can do whatever I feel. It's my hobby

It's my OP that if these are going to be life-keeps, for a long time, then
I would not apply VBR to the encoding process for these. But, if they
are not, then you'll probably benefit from the VBR (2pass) for space reasons.
Just like your template you talked about. You said it's geared for 2:20hr/m
per disk. This is fine for a single disk project. But, for maximum quality
reproduction (close to the laserdisc level of quality) you have to go a
bit higher than VBR would give you. And that's where CBR comes in. The
only problem is, you can only fit approx 1 hour per disk, *unless* you have
a DL burner. Then, you got it made, and you can use CBR and 9000 bitrate and
get that much closer in quality to the original. That's my route. So, my
direction is different than yours.

Other video plans / misc ...

I'm planning on another direction with this project. I'm going to plan this
project like an editor would in a story. Work on separte pieces. Each piece
will require a given amount of bitrate threshold. For Dark scenes like space,
might require adjustment to bitrate at certain degree. Fast scenes, require
yet another approach, etc. etc. That's what video *editing* is all about.
Not poping in a tape, press Play and Record, and in 1 hour your project is
finished. Video editing is serious business. I'm going (I am) to take my
video processing to a higher level.
.
That's my direction now.

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 3003

[Mythos2002]

Thanks for the information Vhelp. I still didn't notice the dot crawl when I used composite cables. Maybe it was still there and I can't see it. I can't say for sure. When I used S-Video, I only saw the dot crawl in the reds and oranges. So, would you recommend doing S-Video and using the 411 filter or just using composite?

BTW> Anyone have the layer break information I was asking about?

Thanks.

Mythos

[Karyudo]

[C]oaxial cable [...] is is the worst "source type connection" around.

Right you are. What you're not seeing on your small, old TV is just how soft the picture is. Also, the only comb filter in that chain -- if there is a comb filter -- will be in your TV.

Everything I throw out to this TV set (through its coaxial cable) is always clean and mean - great quality.

If you're looking at it on an old 20" TV, you are not seeing great quality, believe me. You're seeing a very soft picture, probably at about a level where VHS could compete.

I was looking at a VHS [and when] I captured it with my
ADVC-100 and encoded it, I noticed that there were no dots in the RED
areas.

Part of the reason is because VHS is so unbelievably bad. Another part of the reason is that there is probably no comb filter (for better or worse) in that processing stream -- or nothing challenging for the comb filter.

I always thougth the the Comb Filter was strictly for the S-video outputs. Now, I'm hearing that it's [...] for the composite connects.

From my recent research, it appears that at least in some Pioneer LD players, both the S-video and composite outputs have been processed by the player's internal comb filter.

My question though, is.. What connections is this comb Filter applied to?

On at least some Pioneer players:
LD disc -> [LD player, including: ADC -> comb filter -> DAC -> S-video or composite out] -> cap card in -> ADC -> comb filter -> codec.


@ bhouseman2004

For the record, it's Pioneer HLD-X0, not HD-XO.

Vhelp is only vaguely in the ballpark. The HLD-X0 is one of the last LD players made, and almost certainly the best ever. It's NTSC-only. The 'H' part of 'HLD' also means it plays MUSE Hi-Vision discs. It is no longer manufactured. New, it was something like over $5000; used (when you can find them), they're generally well over $1000. And, if that's not rare and exotic enough, they were only ever sold in Japan.

The output from the X0 is just about as good as NTSC LD can look in theory: low noise, excellent detail and colour, very good on rot, and superb comb filtering.

[Joel V]

Hello All-

I found my last posts this morning and realized it's been almost a year since I asked my last question! I am anxious to re-connect with you fine folks, in particular Karyudo and Rikter.

I recently graduated from college and got an extremely entry-level job at Technicolor Complete Post in Hollywood. When given my initial tour of the facilities, I fantasized about bringing my Definitive Collection SW discs for digitization using hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment more or less (way less, as it turns out) soon to be at my disposal.
I started to mention this idea when I was quickly hushed by the friend who arranged for me to get the job. When I asked what was up, he told me, in a very low voice, that the person I had replaced was FIRED only a few days before for making a digital transfer of his Definitive Collection LD set!! Ooooh.

I am back here to learn the latest. I am excited about the project with the Pioneer HLD-XO, and I'm very curious about Karyudo's broadcast HD recordings.

Oh, and I can't stand the sound on the Ep IV DVD.

More soon,

-Joel

[gshelley61]

All NTSC televisons have comb filters. The NTSC broadcast signal (and analog cable) is composite. The luma and chroma (Y/C) signals must be separated by the comb filter so the image can be displayed by the picture tube.

Composite video signals are not inherently bad. Low bandwidth composite video (like what you get from a VHS VCR) are the problem. Low bandwidth video signals, whether the Y/C is separate or not, have relatively low resolution (soft picture) and other issues. As a matter of fact, the Y/C signals on VHS are physically separate on the tape... they are combined by VHS VCR's to provide a composite video signal. S-VHS VCR's keep the Y/C signals on VHS tape separate through the s-video output (another reason to capture VHS using a S-VHS machine).

Laserdiscs are high bandwidth analog composite video. The laserdisc player, if it has an s-video output, has a comb filter that separates the Y/C. How good the comb filter is will determine how good the resulting s-video signal will look. As some of you have discovered, older and inferior quality comb filters can introduce separation artifacts like dot crawl and image smear. I have a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player, one of the better models they ever made. The composite video output is brighter, sharper, cleaner and much better defined than the s-video output. Why? Because the comb filter is a 15 year old design. Modern digital 3-line motion adaptive comb filters (like the one in my JVC standalone DVD recorder) do a much better job of Y/C separation than the comb filter that is in my 10 year old LD player.

[vhelp]

Hi all.

Yeah. I found your first post on --> PAGE 32

It's ben almost a year now, since.., and 20 something pages later. Wow.
As you can see, lots of changes/findings since. And, that's what this hobby is all
about (and then some) you know.

I see you are on a mac. I'm not sure about the software for this machine/OS is
available, not to mention the issues we all have uncovered since last year. But, I
hope you find them.

@ mythos

Sorry friend. I thought DL burners were very expensive until I came across one at
BJ's for $109 dollars !!
.
.. I haven't picked it up just yet) I prefere to pick up the disks at the store vs. online)
.. anyways. If I do end up going for the DL burner from BJ's (its a Lite-On, if that
.. matters) I'll let you all know, and add my experience here as well.

I've ben meaning to post another sample clip here, but I haven't had the chance to
find a good scene to use. Plus, in addition to just posting a clip, I want it to
beneficial to the thread topic (ie, issues; success; or just gauging for comparison
purposes) to help others here in this endeavor.

Does anyone know if the new Star Wars DVD disks are Double layer ??

Thanks all,
-vhelp 3065

[Joel V]

The new DVDs are most definitely dual-layer.

Thanks for the hello!

Since someone is already using the HLD-XO to make transfers, added to the fact that there are recorded HDTV broadcasts, I don't see any point in actually attempting the video transfer myself. I just can't afford even a used $1000.00 LD player.

I would like to capture audio, edit and author DVDs, and possibly design menus on my Mac. I would also be very willing to help others in any way possible.

[Joel V]

Howdy everyone-

After my last post, I decided that I DID want to try my hand at capturing video. I just "won" (bought) TWO LD players on eBay at incredible prices.Why two? Well, I won a V2600 very cheaply, but a high-end one came up soon after that I coudln't resist. Dig the final prices:

Pioneer CDL-V2600 : $40.00
Pioneer DVL-700: $136.00

These prices INCLUDE shipping! the winning prices sans shipping were $22.00 and $83.00 respectively. I hope the DVL-700 actually works (or will work with a minimum of parts replacement)!

And now for a question:

Is the "Faces" set available in Full (not Wide)Screen?

I thought they were, but I haven't seen any on eBay this week. I have the possibly massochistic idea that I'd like to combine the full-res full-screen discs with up-res'd widescreen ones...I have a feeling that the quality would be weird at best but I'm just so curious!

[Karyudo]

Is the "Faces" set available in Full (not Wide)Screen?

I took a quick look at the LD database, and it doesn't look like there is a P&S 'Faces' edition. It's a bit hard to tell, because not every listing has a photo (the only way for sure to know you're looking at 'Faces' and not something else), but none of the dates and other data match up, either.

Trying to overlay P&S and WS, eh? I see the strategy, but I'm not sure you understand just how masochistic that really would be! You'd have to get very good at AviSynth's Animate() command, I suspect...

[Joel V]

'' ooooog

As soon as you mentioned "P&S", I was reminded that "full screen" isn't just the center of the frame all the way through the movie. Karyudo, you were right - I didn't understand the depth of my massochism!

I was actually planning to use After Effects since I have some experience with it. Matting stuff in isn't a problem, even animating is fairly easy, but if there are lots of camera moves this could be really tedious and may require more energy than it's worth...I can imagine the resulting picture with the "more in focus" section constantly sliding back and forth. Weird, for sure.

Now for another, slightly related topic:

I have noticed a certain "look" that most recent DVD releases share. I don't know if it's a uniform color palette, dynamic range similarity, or something else entirely that I'm noticing, but it started for me a few months ago. One of the telecine operators at work said that the "pleasant look" we associate with DVDs is due to the use of interpositive as the source. This is apparently a recent phenomenon (?), and it might explain the uniform look. The thing is, I'm not sure I actually like it.

I watched the Star Wars trailers on the offical DVD release last night. They are dirty and grainy, but I also felt that they took me back to the theater experience much more than the feature DVDs.

Maybe the extensive cleanup gives us too much transparency into the filmmaking process? Maybe dirtier, grainier film looks more like a document of an actual event instead of a staged "movie"? It's possible that the new image feels sterile to me because it is so clean. It's also posible that I just want to be back in 1977.

Maybe there's a problem inherent in commercial DVD releases that I can't quantify yet. About 10 years ago, I had a minor revelation when an audiophile friend played me a cd and then the exact same release on vinyl using a great turntable. Whoa! The "obsolete" record had way more emotional impact than the "perfect sounding" CD. With the record there was a certain palpable presence to the instruments, despite the occasional pops and clicks (much less noticeable on his setup than on any rig I'd ever heard). I was willing to listen around any little anomolies because the overall sonic picture was so engaging.

It is with this in mind that, once my LD players arrive, I will compare older versions of the LD to the DVD as well as to the Definitive Collection set. If any version gives me more of a visceral/emotional experience, I'll use that as my source for transfer.

I am pretty sure that I'll be using the Def. Collection PCM audio, though. While vinyl can beat CD, analog LD doesn't stand a chance against digital LD sound.

[Karyudo]

It's my understanding that IP stock has far less dynamic range than neg stock, and if this is true then I suspect making a DVD from an IP means the dynamic range is compressed or cropped twice or more: neg to IP, IP to HD, HD to DVD? That might make a difference.

Also, I believe that at least some DVD transfers these days are colour "corrected" along the same lines as using Levels in Photoshop: the blacks are crushed, and the highlights are blown out. Makes for a very vibrant picture, to be sure, but not a very subtle one. Film's dynamic range allows subtlety; DVD's range much less so. So to further crunch it down artificially can't be good, and maybe that's the sort of thing you're noticing?

But what do I know? I've never worked in the PP industry, so you'll probably have real answers yourself soon enough!