Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[tedkunich]

You need to run PullDown on the CCE encoded file. It sets the proper flags in the MPG stream, allowing any authoring package to open the file.


T

Does CCE do this automatically then? The only 3-2 option I've seen on it (so far) seemingly pertains to finding an existing 3-2 pattern in an AVI. What do you do if your AVI has already undergone IVTC and therefore has no 3-2 pattern?

[vhelp]

An AVI file never had 3:2 pulldown assuciated within its structure.
It's ether 29.970 fps or 23.976 fps, but never 23.976 w/ 3:2 structure.

Only an MPEG-2 has this feature (not so for MPEG-1) and the only time
you can engage a 3:2 pulldown in an MPEG-2 is during an encoding process
or aftermath, (ie, using an external app, such as Pulldown.exe) on the
actual MPEG-2 source file. What the Pulldown.exe app will do is read your
23.976 (not 29.970) and insert flags inside the MPEG-2
source file. When the dvd player plays your MPEG-2 (aka, VOB) it reads
those flags (ie, if you used pulldown.exe on it, w/ instructions to insert
3:2 flags) or if you used TMPG (set to 23.976, and select 3:2 pulldown)
and finally play your MPEG-2 (aka, VOB) at 29.970 (instead of 23.976) fps
inserting 2 extra frames, which are basically duplicates of the Last and
First sets of 5. Ok, I may be off on this, but I'm sure it's close

Inverse 3:2 ...

What this does (AFAIK, only TMPG offers this, but since I do not have CCE
higher than 2.50 I'll assume that it does not have this feature) is take
a Film source (24 fps) that was Telecined 29.970 fps (those 2 Interlaced
frames you see in a Film source, like when you watch an HBO movie, and you
capture it with your favorite capture card (or dv device) ) and merges those
two frames, and keep the 29.970 fps but makes it Progressive, but again, still
at 29.970 fps.
.
When all else fails in an IVTC, sometimes TMPG's Inverse 3:2 option proves
wonders.
.
Remember though, that what kills a good encode quality, is the Interlace, not
as much as too many frames (ie, 23.976 vs. 29.970 where the 23.976 would give
you better encode quality - true) but Interlace frames cause a lot more blocks
because MPEG encodes as whole frames, not (Fields and then merges them, thereby
eliminating blocks)
.
When people work w/ DV home footage, and encode those to DVD, the biggest problem
with DV to DVD projects is the Interlace, because all DV cams (low budget ones)
are always pure interlace, every frames. And that other side of the coin (the
quality hit) is the user behind the cam, who refuses to use a Tripod in their
filming, because they think that those digital "stablizers" will elimiate any
aftermath (blocks) in their conversions to DVD. Course, there are other factors
to consider here, but not the topic to discuss Anyways..

CCE and Pulldown..

If you use CCE, then you must use an external app that applies 3:2 flags in
the final *.M2V (MPEG-2) file(s) that CCE encodes. It (your source) will still
be 23.976, but when played inside your DVD player, it will insert those two
frame (those two you see as Interlace)
.
If you didn't use pulldown on your source *.m2v file that CCE encoded for you,
and you authored it to DVD, and palyed it in your favorite DVD player, (say for
example, Apex AD-1500 ) and you decided to capture it..

* firstly, your dvd player will play that VOB as 23.976 fps, and
* secondly, your capture card will capture it at 29.970 (inserting extra or
... duplicate frames to keep it 29.970)
... but in this case, you would change your capture app's fps to 23.976

-vhelp

[Karyudo]

What the Pulldown.exe app will do is read your
23.976 (not 29.970) and insert flags inside the MPEG-2
source file. When the dvd player plays your MPEG-2 (aka, VOB) it reads
those flags (ie, if you used pulldown.exe on it, w/ instructions to insert
3:2 flags) or if you used TMPG (set to 23.976, and select 3:2 pulldown)
and finally play your MPEG-2 (aka, VOB) at 29.970 (instead of 23.976) fps
inserting 2 extra frames, which are basically duplicates of the Last and
First sets of 5. Ok, I may be off on this, but I'm sure it's close

I think there's a few other things you're off on (DV to DVD, for example), but yeah, you're pretty close here.

The flags added are TFF (Top Field First) and RFF (Repeat First Field). Rather than type a bunch of stuff myself, lemme just copy something posted by Peter McCall over at club.cdfreaks.com in one of their forums:

Movies are normally shot using a 24fps frame rate and to display them at NTSC's frame rate of 29.97fps, the 24fps frame rate is slowed to 23.976fps (the audio must be slowed to match) and a process called telecine is used to add some frames/fields to the movie to get a 29.97 frame rate.

For NTSC DVD's and SVCD's no actual frames are added to the MPEG bitstream (that would waste space!), instead MPEG-2's top field first and repeat first field flags are manipulated to achieve the same effect. The manipulation of the TFF (top field first) and RFF (repeat first field) flags is known as 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown.

Pulldown is only supposed to be done on progressive video where the two fields of a frame are from the same instant in time. Interlaced video has fields from different moments in time and pulldown does not look quite as good (but it can be done).

So to put 24fps movies on NTSC DVD's or SVCD's the frame rate is slowed to 23.976fps. Then the TFF and RFF flags in the MPEG bitstream are manipulated so every 4 actual frames in the file are displayed as 5 frames like so:

(T = top field, B = bottom field)
(1/1 means top field first = 1 and repeat first field = 1)
(0/0 means top field first = 0 and repeat first field = 0)
(0/1 means top field first = 0 and repeat first field = 1)
(1/0 means top field first = 1 and repeat first field = 0)

4 frames: TB TB TB TB and their TFF/RFF flags: 1/1 0/0 0/1 1/0

The player uses the TFF and RFF fields to generate the video display like so:

TBT BT BTB TB

if you rearrange these into sets of 2 you get:

TB TB TB TB TB

for a total of 5 frames. This is called 3:2 pulldown as one of the fields of the first frame is repeated, 2:3 would be the opposite:

4 frames: TB TB TB TB and their TFF/RFF flags: 1/0 1/1 0/0 1/1

which they player interprets as:

TB TBT BT BTB

rearrange these into sets of 2:

TB TB TB TB TB

again for a total of 5 frames, the only difference being whether the first frame is displayed for 3 fields or 2.

PC software DVD players do not usually do this, they recognize the TFF and RFF use and just display the 23.976 frames per second at a 23.976 frame rate in which case the audio will still be in synch.

This is why the encoder may state that the frame rate of an MPEG-2 file (VOBs included) is 23.976. If you just intend to play the encoded video on a PC or some device that will not recognize the TFF or RFF flags (or if you encode in MPEG-1), you can just encode using the 23.976 frame rate.

However, if you want the file to be DVD or SVCD compliant, you need to select 23.976 as the frame rate, but in addition you need to enable either 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown so the TFF and RFF flags are set correctly (the progressive frame flag should also be set).

When the pulldown setting is enabled, the encoder must also specify a 29.97 frame rate in the MPEG bitstream as DVD requires.

To achieve this in the MPEG encoder you need to set:
Frame Rate = 23.976 fps
Field_Encoding = Progresive Frames
Pulldown = 3:2

[spiderman2k1]

This guy is doing great job on the STAR WARS DVD's


http://www.originaltrilogy.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=9&threadid=1325

http://www.aptirrelevance.com/videoprojects/otcapture.php

[yoda313]

Hello,

I see no one in this thread is happy with the new commercial dvds......

Kevin

--I love them by the way --

[spiderman2k1]

"yoda313" why are you saying Hello?

This person is remaster the LaserDisc to DVD

[MJPollard]

I see no one in this thread is happy with the new commercial dvds......

Like you, I'm quite satisfied with the commercial DVDs. However, I'll still put the original trilogy on DVD, since it'd be nice to have them for historical purposes (plus, my laserdisc stuff ain't gonna last forever). 8)

[Eandtc]

"I love them by the way"

Yet, here you are in this thread, rather than happily watching them...seems kinda moronic to me.

I ran across something that didn't quite make sense (other than yoda313's post.)

When I was saving my edited IVTC to make a new AVI master, I ran across the following options.

The default was save to NTSC-DV format, and the sub-option was "23.976ffps inserting 2-3 pulldown". When I switch to the Huffy format, it gives a sub-option of 23.976 (IVTC film).

Are these the same, or different. If I compiled a small segment of each one, how could I compare the results? Also, can 2-3 pulldown be encoded in the AVI? I thought the best way was to keep the AVI at 23.976, and put the 2-3 pulldown coding in the MPEG. If the AVI has the 2-3 coding, does it need to be re-encoded in the MPEG as well?

Sorry...a lot of questions, but I want to make sure my master is in the best possible format possible before I run it through Combustion 3. (BTW, to anyone running Combustion 3...it's a great program, but it won't save my changes. Any ideas?)

[vhelp]

Actually, I think the DVD's are great. I was looking so
forward to them, and they are here, and I'm enjoying
them just as much (well, sort of) as I have enjoyed
my Laserdisc endeavors. Its the challenge w/ LD's and
movies, etc.

@ Eandtc

When you save your new avi file, you save as 23.976
(per your IVTC process) ..AFAIK, you can't insert '3:2 flags
inside the avi file. This is done in your encoder. In TMPG,
you tic the 23.976 and then below it, select the 3:2 pulldown,
and encode your source.

-vhelp

[Karyudo]

This guy is doing great job on the STAR WARS DVD's

That's grimby, who has posted here in the past.

[Eandtc]

"AFAIK, you can't insert '3:2 flags
inside the avi file."

That's what I thought too. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't putting in something bad, or leaving out something good. Thanks!

Oh, and I won't even buy the DVDs. :P

[spiderman2k1]

This site says that the 1992 version fixed the Wide Screen problem "Incredible Shrinking Ratio" http://www.davisdvd.com/misc/ep4.htm that the problem got fixed in the 1992 release of Star Wars on LaserDisc. Well I check my 1992 version and it was the problem the "Incredible Shrinking Ratio" I check the jacket of the cover its says 1992 but I thoight i bought these used at the laserDisc store I shop at years ago may be they change the Disc. I look at the Disc and they also say 1992. If any one can please check there LaserDisc and see if they have this problem please let me know.

WHAT YOU MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN: The letterboxed Japanese transfer was used to create this edition and since the picture on that had been shifted up, some slight re-adjustment was necessary to equalize the letterbox bands and place the 2.35 frame closer to the center. How this was done was through a "controlled video scroll" (like adjusting the vertical hold on an older TV set) to move the picture to the approximate center of the screen. The top of the frame, now vacant of the original picture, was matted over with a black letterbox band. Now here's the kicker: since this was all done by eye, at some point during this correction process the top letterbox band began over-matting onto the top edge of the picture. This essentially changed the aspect ratio of the film midway! To check for yourselves, grab this laserdisc and chapter to the cantina sequence. Go up to your screen and mark where the top letterbox band meets the top of the picture frame. At the point Greedo gets shot, the top black band will creep down lower than its original position. And to make matters worse, this happens a second time somewhere during the course of the film. So by the point the rebels are preparing to attack the Death Star, the film's aspect ratio has changed from 2.35:1 to 2.55:1. This "Incredible Shrinking Ratio" was later corrected in 1992 and issued on both VHS and laserdisc. See below for that [ Very Special Thanks to David C. Fein ]

And I found the same problem in the 1992 release. The only thing I can think of FOX had some old LaserDisc and thet slapped new labs on they to sell.

This is the reason why I want to know if people are having any problem with the 1992 release

• RELEASE DATE: 1985
• STUDIO: CBS/FOX
• RELEASE FORMAT: VHS
• COMMENTS: VHS re-release #3
• TECHNICAL COMMENTS: "Digitally Mastered" HiFi Stereo audio upgrade
• WHAT YOU MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN: This release is a little-known milestone in the history of Star Wars. When Fox decided to digitally remaster the audio track for this re-release, sound designer Ben Burtt asked to be involved. What Burtt actually ended up doing was that he created an entirely new sound mix for the film. So in reality, the audio for this video release is the fourth official Star Wars audio mix (following the three original theatrical mixes - see the first entry at the top of this page). Among the clean up and digital repairs, some interesting new changes were added. These include sweetened sound effects, new stereo'd effects (Jawa voices after Artoo's capture) and, most noticeably, the addition of C-3PO's line in the Death Star ("The tractor beam is coupled to the main reactor in seven locations. A power loss at one of the terminals will allow the ship to leave"). This new sound mix was used for every subsequent video release until the 1993 THX "Definitive Collection" remastering [ Very Special Thanks to David C. Fein for this important revelation ]

[Eandtc]

Okay, guys - ran into something interesting...

I was under the impression that when I compiled an MPEG with 2-3 pulldown, flags were put in the MPEG to show where the pulldown should occur, rather than make the actual pulldown itself.

Having made identical MPEGs of the lightsaber sequence, the only difference being straight 23.976 vs 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown, I noticed the 23.976 MPEG is 6 Mbs, while the 2-3 pulldown is 9 Mbs. This is quite a difference for an 18-second segment.

Here's the MPEG, if anyone is interested.

So my question is - can I just encode it as 23.976, and let the DVD player do the pulldown? It seems siller that I IVTCed to end up with fewer frames to encode, and then end up encoding the extra frames anyways. I intend to make a pratice DVD tomorrow, but I was just wondering about what to do.

[tedkunich]

Encode @ 23.976 and run pulldown.exe on it afterwards (prior to authoring). Changing the flags via pulldown.exe does not change the files size. Sounds like your encoder is duplicating the pulldown pattern into the MPEG stream, not just setting the flags.

T

Okay, guys - ran into something interesting...

I was under the impression that when I compiled an MPEG with 2-3 pulldown, flags were put in the MPEG to show where the pulldown should occur, rather than make the actual pulldown itself.

Having made identical MPEGs of the lightsaber sequence, the only difference being straight 23.976 vs 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown, I noticed the 23.976 MPEG is 6 Mbs, while the 2-3 pulldown is 9 Mbs. This is quite a difference for an 18-second segment.

Here's the MPEG, if anyone is interested.

So my question is - can I just encode it as 23.976, and let the DVD player do the pulldown? It seems siller that I IVTCed to end up with fewer frames to encode, and then end up encoding the extra frames anyways. I intend to make a pratice DVD tomorrow, but I was just wondering about what to do.

[Eandtc]

Thank you.

Actually, this is rather good news, since I now know that I can raise the compression on my MPEG and still get the same file size.

[grimby]

What do you guys think would be a good GOP structure for a dual layer dvd with average bit rate above 6Mbps? I've read that I can get away with not using any B frames at all. Any truth to this?

[FulciLives]

What do you guys think would be a good GOP structure for a dual layer dvd with average bit rate above 6Mbps? I've read that I can get away with not using any B frames at all. Any truth to this?

You really are best not messing with the GOP structure and/or the Quantize Matrix otherwise you will most likely do more harm than good at least in terms of making a compatable DVD disc ... in other words messing with those settings can make a non-compliant MPEG-2 stream for the purposes of burning a DVD Video.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

@ grimby

I would suggest trying a few encoding scenarios w/ high bitrate first.

I'm not familiar w/ DL writers. But, I'll assume that they will burn
a complete 8gig (instead of the 4.7g) and I'm also assume that your
end goal is to master *one* movie per DVD disk ??
.
In that light, I'm assuming you want best quality (we all do) from these
Laserdisc's of Star Wars (orginals) for good reason

Bitrate ...

I would start at 15000 bitrate (CBR mode) on a few test scenes.
Then, work your way down to a lower bitrate, in increments of 1000 in
your bitrate (ie, 15k; 14k; 13k; 12k ... etc) at least until *YOU* can
see a degrading difference in quality that does not look like the LD
copy. If you see some pixelation in your encode, then you know just how
*low* you can go in your bitrate. I think that 9000 (9k) would be an
asseptable bitrate for close to original copy. Make sure that the scenes'
you are testing have a mixture of slow and fast motion in it, to be fair
w/ your bitrate setting.

I don't know if you are still using the ADVC-100 or Winfast for your
captures. Maybe both. I don't know. But, let me know which one you
are using, so that at least I have a reference to make responds from.
.
I need to give the ADVC a few more test goes w/ my LD set myself. I had
put off my LD projects for a while, and have ben cut off from my own
"optimum" of advice.

If you (or others here) would like a few small test samples of encoded
MEPG-2 files to gauge against, please let me know, and I'll Upload a
few for you to try out in your encodes.

-vhelp

[grimby]

Yes, you can burn a full 8GB with DL burners. And yes, I'm doing one DL disc per movie. At this point, I'm assuming that I'll have 1 PCM, 3 192K DD audio tracks and roughly 100MB worth of motion menus/easter eggs. That leaves a little over 6GB for the video.

According to the DVD-HQ Bitrate & GOP calculator, this yields 8000Kbs max, 6650Kbs average, and 2650Kbs min. The GOP structure recommended is 1-2 I frames, 4-17 P frames, and 0 B frames. Their guide (for encoding with TMPGEnc) doesn't mention anything about compatibility issues in the absence of B frames.

As far as which capture device I'm using, I have recently ditched my Winfast Xpert card and replaced it with an MSI TV@nywhere card. The reason I did this was because I didn't like the Xpert's crappy multi-connect cable I was forced to plug my Monster THX video cable into. :/ The MSI has the same Conexant chip, but there's less interferance in the signal so I'm getting better results. My video card has recently crapped out on me, so unfortunately I haven't been able to fully test my new capture card. When my new GeForce card comes in, I'll take your advice and try the CBR approach on a few select scenes.

And I'd love to have a few MPEG-2's to gauge my work against. I'd be happy to return the favor and upload my own if you want.

[FulciLives]

Please note that a video bitrate of 8000kbps with PCM WAV audio (1536kbps) hits the max bitrate limit of a DVD. So if you are going to be using a PCM WAV audio track and 3 more tracks of 192kbps AC-3 then you will have to lower your video bitrate to under 8000kbps ... probably 7400kbps at the most and even then it might be a bit close. I probably wouldn't "feel" safe unless I went with 7000kbps with all that audio overhead. Subtitle streams add to the bitrate as well but I don't think they add much ... not sure on that.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Another option would be to use an AC-3 audio track for the main audio instead of a PCM WAV audio track. 256kbps is usually more than enough for 2.0 channel audio though you could max it out at 448kbps if you want to max out the AC-3 bitrate (for "best" quality) because ... hey! ... even 448kbps is better than 1536kbps.

[spiderman2k1]

Subtitles pnly add to the bitrate when they are burned in subtitles.

[haloblack]

Okay, I know that this is technically a threadjack and doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I just got back from a screening of a 70mm print of the original, uncut, non-screwed-up Star Wars and I just have to say WOW!!

It's amazing how well the original stands up after 25 years, even with the original FX that needed all that "improvement."

I wish you guys luck with your LD rips. Any work that goes into preserving the original prints of "The Holy Trilogy" ("what's a Nubian?") is definitely time well spent...

[vhelp]

Ok.

Currently I'm testing out my ADVC-100 again. I too have ditched my Winfast.
Not permanaly mind you. Just not for now.

As I was saying..

I've ben testing my ADVC 's IRE values for Laserdisc media. And, I have
found that setting the IRE to a 7.5 (PAL) value, which darkens it, gives
me the great quality output. My main concirn is the dark scenes. My other
concirn is w/ the 411 issue (red areas that produce check boards)
I have considered a comprimise, but haven't yet fully committed to it just
yet. The only way to 50% eliminate it is to use vdub's 411 filter, but
that requires a post process step, which I no longer want to do these days.
My reason is because I have mastered TMPG's IVTC process. And, I have
found my way around with the "quicky" route of IVTC. No more waiting for
TMPG to parse through the AVI file to Make a 23.976 fps and then Encode
the source. Instead, the IVTC is instant. But to use this feature (or
gold mind I call it) is to be skillfull/knowledged.. in other words, have
the eye for craftmanship. Ok., a bit anal, but true. Anyways.
.
But, if I want to use the 411 to rid (50% of) the "check board" in the red
areas, I have to post process (make another AVI file) which requires more
time. And, these days, I'm getting more and more lazier. I don't want
to deal w/ more time. That's why I got the DVD Xpress (as an alternative)
to my video endavors for when I'm lazy or whaterver.

As far as sample clips go. I don't know what peoples require. I mean,
do they want some dark scenes or what ?? ..I don't know. I've done a few
already.., because they give me the most trouble, and I spend a great deal
of time eliminating the problems w/ dark scenes. Like the one where Luke
goes down to check on the droids. CP-3o is gone missing (looking for O-B-ONE)
When Luke goes down stairs (in his cave) he turns on his locator (at least
that's what I decuced it was) in his hand, and R2D2 jumps out of hiding.
Anyways. That's one scene I was working on fixing. I feel I have.
But, evey device is different. When I last worked w/ this same scene, but
usign my Winfast card, I had totally different settings. With my ADVC, I
had to re-invent the wheel for certain dark scenes.

Anways, the above is something to think about.
-vhelp

[Mythos2002]

I hope the WinFast Expert card is a good card. I bought mine back in August, but I haven't had much time to test it and I have to admit I've been lazy as well.

Anyway, I'm excited because the Beta TMPGEnc 2.5.24 has a template for 8.5Gb DVD's. The only problem is that there isn't a way to download the full version of the program. Only the trial is available.

I really hope they put that 8.5Gb template in the full version because I prefer 2.5 to Xpress. Xpress may be better, but I like 2.5 since that is what I know.

VHelp,

I only notice the checkerboard in the reds when I use S-Video cables. If I use composite, I never see that.

Mythos

[vhelp]

@ mythos

Regarding the Winfast capture card ...

There is nothing wrong with the card. Other then my picky pc setup and mobo / cpu
I still get Line Noise. No matter what I do, in the end, I find I'm just not as
satisfied as I thought.

I've ben messing around w/ my ADVC-100 again with Laserdisc media, and
I found and improved my process for quality. My goal (as always) is for the
maximum quality. Unless I'm lazy and don't really care, or orther poor excuse,
I'm usually after quality. These LD projects are special to me. So I want to
maintain the best quality possible. I want as close to the "original" source as
possible. That means I have to trial n error it till I'm satisfied. For someone
very interested in this HOBBY, I don't mind the trials. I always learn something
new or better along the way.

I will try the Composite connection this evening, and see for myself what
you all are on about when you say no checker box. Might not work for me
and my setup. But I'll try it anyways.

I'll try and Upload a sample clip this evening or later.

This Thanksgiving, I'm planning on a Star Wars Turkey Bash Blowout !!
and view the Trilogy set and relive the moment as I once did Eight Years
ago. I just haven't decided on weather to use my Laserdisc transfers, or
my DVD ones. Its a tough decision.

Thank for the tip.

Cheers,
-vhelp

[vhelp]

god.. I love my ADVC-100 !! my dark scenes come out great ..anyways.

Well, I did try the Composite. Actually, it added more "video noise" to the source
then s-video. I'll definately stick to s-video
But "checker box" was still there, by the way.. oh well.

I'll upload the scene where:
* Luke goes into his den and uses his locator to find C3P0 & R2D2 comes out of hiding.

-vhelp 2821

[vhelp]

DOWNLOAD ...

Ok. Here is the sample clip I spoke of earlier.
You need to use winRAR v2.90 to extract MPEG from.
--> vhelp.starwars.laserdisc.sample.luke.locator.advc. rar

I hope this clip helps those that need to gauge their progress.
Course, if you have better, please post *your* sample too

Enjoy,
-vhelp

[grimby]

Very nice sample vhelp! I'll be sure to post mine once I've got it done.

[vhelp]

Thanks Grimby.

I might Upload another one tonight.

I know that dark scenes are toughest for most to work with and get the
results they are looking. So, I figure its a good place to build "guages"
to help those who need it

But, I'd be happy w/ some suggestions of scenes people are curious to see.
Maybe other Star Wars (ep 5 or ep 6) I don't know.
But I'd be happy to do any scenes :P

-vhelp

[grimby]

I'd like to see your opening shot of ANH if that's possible. (right after the crawl and up to the star destroyer passing overhead) I'm curious to see how other people's star fields are turning out.


(BTW, just got my new GeForce 6600GT in, so hopefully I'll be able to install it as well as my Winfast Xpert and TV@nywhere capture cards. I'm anxious to do some side-by-side comparissons of these two cards to see if the MSI is really any better.)