Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[RottenFoxBreath]

ive never personally heard any of the first 3 star wars movies in 5.1 before i got my box set,so i cant comment,but after watching them last night and today,i have to say that the sound is brilliant through my cinema system,and far better than the laserdisc versions i saw,and especially better than my crapped out video versions of them(mind you,theyve been played to death.
up till now,i reckon ive only heard them in dolby surround at best,like probably most have.
so it would be interesting to hear what lucasfilm has to say.
but they sound fine on mine,and the problems theyve encountered dont seem half as bad after hearing the affected parts,as they do on paper(or monitor)..you know what i mean..

[ishtar1138]

[quote="Mythos2002"]Hi Vhelp.

Check out www.thedigitalbits.com They mention the audio flaws there.

they also said that about the Alien Qaudrilogy. Alien worked fine on my system. there might be problems with the review discs or they're using a Toshiba dvd player. i'm going to purchase the set even if there are some problems with it. i've been waiting to long for it. i doubt Lucas would replace them.

[Mythos2002]

Lucasfilm replied to The Digital Bits with this response.

"We are always impressed with how closely fans listen to the many different sound mixes we have made for the Star Wars movies over the years. It is flattering to know that, indeed, the audience is listening. Consequently, each mix comes out differently and any changes that you hear on the all-new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX tracks on the Star Wars Trilogy DVD set are deliberate creative decisions. We can confirm that there are no technical glitches as reported."

The major issue is that the surrounds in the rear channels are reversed. For those of you who have the DVD's and a 5.1 system, see if the music from the front left appears in the right rear and vice versa. If so, it is screwed up. What is playing in the front left should be in the rear left.

Mythos

[mysticgohan17]

If I can recognize it on my stereo big screen, I'll just plug the red cable in the white socket and vice-versa.

[ntrprs]

If I can recognize it on my stereo big screen, I'll just plug the red cable in the white socket and vice-versa.

Apparently it is only the music mix on the rear channels that is swapped - swapping white and red on the rear will make the music OK, but the SPFX swapped.

Mine should be arriving soon, so I will check it out.

Dave

[RottenFoxBreath]

the other thing to maybe point out,is this for the PAL region 2 version,NTSC region 1 set,or another...
i have the UK PAL one,and its fine on mine,all speakers set to the same settings,and no glitches on mine.

[mysticgohan17]

If I can recognize it on my stereo big screen, I'll just plug the red cable in the white socket and vice-versa.

Apparently it is only the music mix on the rear channels that is swapped - swapping white and red on the rear will make the music OK, but the SPFX swapped.

Mine should be arriving soon, so I will check it out.

Dave

Damn. I'll be buying it again on blu-ray/HD-DVD in like 3 years anyway. Hopefully they fix it.

[ntrprs]

the other thing to maybe point out,is this for the PAL region 2 version,NTSC region 1 set,or another...
i have the UK PAL one,and its fine on mine,all speakers set to the same settings,and no glitches on mine.

Ok, I have confirmed this. I have the PAL OZ one (R4) and for the first movie only, the music sent to the rear speakers is swapped. (ie what was in the front left appears in the back right speaker, likewise for front right...) This happens for the MUSIC TRACK ONLY. The sound is not a 'glitch' as it is there for the entire movie. The SPFX in the rear channels are correct. I therefore would think that ALL editions are like this (as mentioned on www.thedigitalbits.com website) The music reversal in the rear channels DOES NOT occur for the other two movies only ANH!
(listen for the strings in the orchestra - normally the violins are on the LHS, but in the rear channels they are on the right!)

I some how think that it was intended this way as the orchestral score for ANH is more subdued (and often more 'tinny' and with uneven balance) than the other two movies' scores due to the recording technology at the time. They seem to be trying to enhance the surround field with the music in the rear speakers. The music score for ANH seems to be only stereo (and not surround) whereas the scores for the other two do have a different rear channel component than the front corresponding speaker.

Sony is releasing a remixed surround version of the SE scores on CD (due any day now) using their DSD (Direct Stream Digital) surround sound technology. If this recording is a true surround remix (and not what we have on the ANH DVD disc, then I think Lucasfilm should have been in closer collaboration with Sony! I will wait until I get mine and LYK.

BTW, for those who have seen it (and heard) there are quite a few sound additions in the surround channels in a number of scenes. Most of these are great additions, but a few are a bit too obvious - some sounded like train and plane roars in the wrong place.... (They also have removed the "OhhTeedeeee" line from the previous SE Jawa scenes where they fall off the beast at Mos Eisley) The low frequency bass has been significantly increased which will all give your subby a workout!

"The audience is listening"

Dave

[ntrprs]

On the extras topic, I found out that the original SW was released on video in July 1980. These will have the ORIGINAL credits (without the Episode IV). This was not a sell-through, but a hire-only version. The credits were changed for the 1981 re-release in theatres.

Dave

[Mythos2002]

I was wondering if I could try doing a dual layer encode with TMPGEnc Plus 2.5. Anyone know how I could do this? I was going to try using a bitrate calculator and putting the bitrates into TMPGEnc that it gives me. I know there will be some warnings from TMPGEnc about the filesize, but I'm guessing it will still work.

Anyone have any ideas. I know TMPGEnc Xpress is supposed to do dual layer, but I don't like it. I would really like to modify 2.5 so that it will give me a 8.5Gb media choice.

Thanks.

Mythos

[spiderman2k1]

"Mythos2002" If it can do a layer break then I think it will work fine. I would go to TMPG website and make a post there I think there is a forum there.

[spiderman2k1]

Any one going to use the new Star Wars DVD that just came out to try and and take footage to make there own DVD set buy editting stuff and adding stuff in from Laser Disc to make a original DVD set?

The remaster of the movies on DVD is so sharp I really wish they brought out the original on DVD.

[Mythos2002]

"Mythos2002" If it can do a layer break then I think it will work fine. I would go to TMPG website and mmake a post there I think there is a forum there.

I'm not sure if TMPGEnc Plus can do layer breaks, but I know DVD-Lab Pro and TMPG's DVD Author probably can. I was just wondering if I can encode up to 8.5Gb's since TMPGEnc's wizard tops out at 4.7Gb. I wish there was a way to modify the program to include a 8.5Gb template. On the last screen of the wizard, you can change the media type from CD to DVD 4.7Gb, but there is no 8.5Gb DVD listed. I wouldn't use the wizard except to check my settings and disc space. I'll check their forum. Thanks for letting me know they have one. I didn't know they did.

Any one going to use the new Star Wars DVD that just came out to try and and take footage to make there own DVD set buy editting stuff and adding stuff in from Laser Disc to make a original DVD set?

The remaster of the movies on DVD is so sharp I really wish they brought out the original on DVD.

I don't think many will try that because it would be very hard to try and match quality. It would also be very noticeable when the source changes back and forth. The new DVD's do look nice. It's too bad they didn't do them right by putting out the Original Versions as well.

Mythos

[dphirschler]

I'm going to try it. The PAL source will help with the patches. And I also plan to try to use partial frames and edit in just the pieces I need.

1. First step is eliminating scenes that weren't in the originals.

2. Next, I pad it so that is snychs up frame for frame with the original.

3. Next I create masks for good scenes which have SE crap in them.

4. Next align up the PAL version as best as possible. This will include stretching to fit the anamorphic frame. PAL won't have to stretch as much as NTSC.

5. Apply any color correction and levels balance so that the PAL version (as closely as possible) matches the appearance of the DVD. This will be a real pain since it will likely be different in each scene.

6. Lastly, the audio will come from the LD.

Foreseeable challenges:
- Keeping the frame steady on the LD version so that is aligns with the DVD. The frame on the DVD is very stable. The LD shakes and shimmys a little.

- Levels and color matching.

- Cleaning the grit from the LD to match the pristine cleanliness of the DVD.


I also plan to correct a couple of things such as the green lightsaber practice scene. It will be a simple mask with a blue overlay.


Darryl

[spiderman2k1]

Mythos2002 I was think of using the new DVD and may be just change the thing I do not like in the new DVD's. One in A New Hope change the Han Solo seen and the Jaba seen as well. The rest I'm fine with. As for Empire strikes back Im fine with the new version. Return Of the Jedi I have problem's with the Alien band that has to go and Hayden Christensen has to go as well. All the other stuff is just cosmetic and those seens I do think are nice. Like in Star Wars when Han Solo ship takes of you get a top view. Those seens just add to the picture but do not change the story

[Mythos2002]

Spiderman,

It may work since you don't want to change that much. If I were doing ESB, I would definitely cut out Vader's shuttle trip. That just interrupts the flow of the action and the music. The great thing is that all you are doing is dubbing over one of Vader's lines (if you choose) and removing a scene. That scene is the one in ESB I have the biggest problem with. I'm not fond of the Emporer telling Vader that Luke is his son because Vader already knows that, but I can live with that change more than the Vader shuttle trip. I know this is your project, so I don't know if you have any of those changes in mind. I would however do a side by side comparison and play the scene of the Falcon rescuing Luke and escaping into hyperspace on both the Original and new 2004 version and you will see what I mean.

BTW: Where is the official TMPG Forum? All I could find is Doom9's.

Thanks.

Patrick

[spiderman2k1]

"Mythos2002" thanks I forgot about those points I'm going to watch both version of the movies before I do any thing.

[spiderman2k1]

"dphirschler" how are the PAL LD's I have the NTSC ones and VHS and the VCD set LOL. I think GL never really gave out a good video copy to the fans if you look at the film in A New Hope When Vader is done talking to Lai and one fo the soldiers say "If the word gets out that we have the princess if you look at his face you will find a funny fuzz oh his cheek. It seems dark seens are this funny fuzz. The new DVD do not have them. I thought it might be that LDs are old but its only the Star Wars LDs that have this problem and the VHS sets have it and the VCD set has it. I can only say that I have seen tis problem with NTSC

[dphirschler]

Here are some caps from the PAL set.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1019353#1019353
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=988083#988083

Another thing ocurred to me. I may also be able to grab details out of the full screen version if I can get them lined up and scaled properly. Probably too much trouble though.


Darryl

[tedkunich]

"dphirschler" how are the PAL LD's I have the NTSC ones and VHS and the VCD set LOL. I think LG never really gave out a good video copy to the fans if you look at the film in A New Hope When Vader is done talking to Lai and one fo the soldiers say "If the word gets out that we have the princess if you look at his face you will find a funny fuzz oh his cheek. It seems dark seens are this funny fuzz. The new DVD do not have them. I thought it might be that LDs are old but its only the Star Wars LDs that have this problem and the VHS sets have it and the VCD set has it. I can only say that I have seen tis problem with NTSC

The orginal Mastering, be it LD or VHS, has all kinds of crap in them - everything from yellowing tape used to splice the film, to scratches, dirt, hair, and a few finger prints thrown in for good measure! It has nothing to do with NTSC vs PAL. NTSC artifacts are another story...

T

[Mythos2002]

I've really been hearing a lot of complaints about the new DVD's. I agree that they look great as far as detail, but they look a little oversaturated colorwise to me.

I may look into trying out CCE sometime and compare it to TMPGEnc. I'm also going to try everyone's suggestions on IVTC using VirtualDub instead of TMPGEnc.

Mythos

[spiderman2k1]

I've really been hearing a lot of complaints about the new DVD's. I agree that they look great as far as detail, but they look a little oversaturated colorwise to me.

Mythos2002

You are right the films do look oversaturated the reason I think they look this way is that the film is old and film back in the 80's does not look as good as film does today. I'm talk about the film that goes in the camerathats it. When they remaster them the played with the color. To me ever old movie that come to DVD from the 80's seems to be a bit wacky when it comes to color. plus these old film do age over time and then they go back to fix the color it seems they never get the true look it had in the theater.

[dphirschler]

Oversaturation did not bother me until I saw the wierd blue glow coming from the escape pod on the desert planet in the background behind C-3PO and R2-D2.


Darryl

[spiderman2k1]

"dphirschler" Oversaturation did not bother me until I saw the wierd blue glow coming from the escape pod on the desert planet in the background behind C-3PO and R2-D2.

Ha what up with that weird blue glow I think it look purple. I'll have to check the DVD again. I really think GL does this stuff some no one can get a perfect copy of the movies. My hole life I have never seen a perfect copy of Star Wars.

[mysticgohan17]

[quote="spiderman2k1"]

My hole life I have never seen a perfect copy of Star Wars.

I don't think anyone else but George Lucas has

It's all really opinion though

[Eandtc]

"everything from yellowing tape used to splice the film"

I was wondering what the hell that was! I've been manually IVTCing, and have noticed dirty yellow bands at the top and bottom of scene changes from time to time. Haven't noticed any fingerprints though (yet )

[Eandtc]

Okay...time for another dumb question.

I've IVTCed ealier versions of my SW LDs. When I rendered them, there were two possible choices for 23.976 framerate - by itself, and with 2-3 pulldown. I assumed that I should have used the 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown, but I remembered something - someone else mentioned that DVD players will automatically do pulldown of 24FPS material. If this is the case, should I just use the lone 23.976 setting, or do I still need the 23.976 + 2-3 setting? What would be the difference between the two?

[ntrprs]

Okay...time for another dumb question.

I've IVTCed ealier versions of my SW LDs. When I rendered them, there were two possible choices for 23.976 framerate - by itself, and with 2-3 pulldown. I assumed that I should have used the 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown, but I remembered something - someone else mentioned that DVD players will automatically do pulldown of 24FPS material. If this is the case, should I just use the lone 23.976 setting, or do I still need the 23.976 + 2-3 setting? What would be the difference between the two?

You should choose the 23.976fps + "2-3 pulldown when playback" option when encoding. The actual encode will be 23.976 fps, but the 2-3 pulldown indicates to the player to do the conversion to bring it to the DVD spec of 29.97fps. Leaving it as 23.976fps will make it a non-DVD standard disc and most players will not be able to play it. (BTW, most 'smart' authoring packaging will pick up a 24fps file as an error when trying to assemble disc content).

Dave

[Eandtc]

Does CCE do this automatically then? The only 3-2 option I've seen on it (so far) seemingly pertains to finding an existing 3-2 pattern in an AVI. What do you do if your AVI has already undergone IVTC and therefore has no 3-2 pattern?

[ntrprs]

Does CCE do this automatically then? The only 3-2 option I've seen on it (so far) seemingly pertains to finding an existing 3-2 pattern in an AVI. What do you do if your AVI has already undergone IVTC and therefore has no 3-2 pattern?

I'm not sure what the CCE options are.

My process was (and still is):

1. IVTC the 29.97fps AVI (using VD and AVIsynth) to get 23.976fps
2. Frameserved to TMPGEnc
3. Selected the wizard (and NTSC) in TMPG and this selected the "3:2 pulldown when playback" option (other options that are available are non-interlace, interlace, Inverse 3:2 pulldown - these are not used for 23.976fps AVI source. Interlaced is used for a video-sourced 29.97fps AVI NTSC. I do not use the others).

After typing this, I see that the CCE encoding may be the equivalent of Inverse 3:2 pulldown (or Inverse Telecine) where you supply a non-IVTC'd 29.97fps AVI source and it detects the 3:2 pulldown pattern during encoding - I'm not sure what the final O/P will be - I presume 29.97fps! (like TMPGEnc)

I'm sure there are a few guides here for using CCE and encoding a 24fps source.

Dave