Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[ntrprs]

Here is the frame seqence I was refering to...

OK, I see that. I also notice that same effect when Greedo falls dead.

That has nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown. My transfer is the same. I believe that is the effects of temporal noise reduction on the LD itself. It could be in the player I suppose if it is automatically applying a filter on playback.

Mine shows up this artefact on the Greedo scene too. It is not that noticable, but it is probably a combination of the disc and the player as Darryl said. I have two Pioneer LD players and both of them do it.

Dave

[Karyudo]

Specifically, what are you referring to? If you are talking about the bright flashes at the bottoms of frames right before a cut scene, yes the movie is plagued with them.

No, not that. I have a feeling that's maybe caused by a splice? I don't know -- I'm no colour timer.

I'm talking about the sort of ghosting of the stormtrooper's helmet, as he pops up (presumably from picking up some ring thingy from the sand) on Tatooine, and talks to his superior officer. Whatever went wrong here has been fixed on the SE.

But that is not related at all to the telecine (3:2 pulldown). [...] Every frame converts to progressive just fine.

Actually, maybe you're completely right, because it's just about as bad the same in PAL. I guess it's just some artifact of optical effects work?

[Karyudo]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think it's a telecine problem. Just like those old video cameras left big comet tails when panning past bright lights, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the telecines of the vintage used for the DC/Faces-era transfer couldn't quite resolve quick changes in brightness like that. Can't prove anything, but I'd have to put that forward as my best guess.

[Eandtc]

Okay, I finally did it! I have an EXCELLENT 24fps MPEG of ANH. It's funny, my ealier 19.19 MPEG came out at 3.32 GB with bitrates of 6/3. My new MPEG came out at 2.67 GB with bitrates of 7/3! I'm definitely rerunning it with higher rates, and I will still have room for the PCM soundtrack (and maybe the 5.1 as well... :P )

[dphirschler]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think it's a telecine problem. Just like those old video cameras left big comet tails when panning past bright lights, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the telecines of the vintage used for the DC/Faces-era transfer couldn't quite resolve quick changes in brightness like that. Can't prove anything, but I'd have to put that forward as my best guess.

I think it is some sort of temporal smoother that Lucas used in his "definitive" set. You don't see that sort of effect on the original "Special Widescreen Edition"... but you see a lot more noise. Take any capture from TV and apply a temporal smoother too strongly and you will get the same effect.


Darryl

[Karyudo]

I think it is some sort of temporal smoother that Lucas used in his "definitive" set.

You could well be right. I'm not 100% convinced, since NTSC and PAL have the same sort of artifacts, even though they're from different copies of the film. Although that could be because they'd both been post-processed the same way. I guess we'll never know for sure -- and it's really irrelevant, isn't it? The important bit is that we do know it's done upstream of LD mastering, and therefore not something wrong with this player or that capture solution. If you do things right, these artifacts will still appear.

[ntrprs]

On the subject of versions, does anyone have a copy of the original credits of the first release of the movie (ie without the Episode IV on the title?) In first release back in 1977 it was like this (I can confirm this as I saw it then) but I think after a few months (or was it a year) all copies were replaced with the Episode IV versions....

It would be nice addition for the DC extras disc of our collections..

Dave

[dphirschler]

I didn't think that version was released on video cassette. All the versions I can remember seeing at home (even on cable) were "Episode IV - A New Hope". Now in the theater it was a different matter. I don't remember seeing "Episode IV - A New Hope" in the theater, but I do remember NOT seeing it. Yes I was young, but I saw it 11 times in the theater in its original run.


Darryl

[yoda313]

Hello,

It may not have made it to the video release. I remember reading on the Star Wars website that the title was changed to "Episode IV A New Hope" while it was in the theaters (during it's long run, some would have stopped showing it). My guess would be that once that change was made it would have been put on the very first video release. That's just a guess of course.

Kevin

[dphirschler]

So the Leia welding scene... how long is it supposed to be? My Definitive LD shows Leia welding, but how am I supposed to know how much of it (if any) has been cut? Don't make me get out my VHS.


Darryl

[Eandtc]

"Don't make me get out my VHS."

:^O

Not in this day and age.

[viande]

"Don't make me get out my VHS."

:^O

Not in this day and age.

I _tried_ that, hakcing the missing bit from the VHS part...
it wasnt conclusive.

Basically all the part where she actually welds is out, on my edition LD, i only get her removing her glasses, and closing the thingy...

as i said earlier, it would be _nice_ if someone made a torrent out of the entire scene... well, now its true that this whole scene could be taken out of the dvd release (which should only have changed for the best)

[Karyudo]

So the Leia welding scene... how long is it supposed to be?

That one shot is held for 255 frames, inclusive. Any shorter than that, and I guess you're missing something!

[dphirschler]

Great! 255 frames/24 fps = about ten and a half seconds. Looks like I have it.

@viande
I am on dialup so I don't think I can realistically host a torrent. But I will cap it and send it to you if you want. Depending on the size, I may even be able to email it (from work, shhhh!). It will most likely be mjpeg at quality 19, 712x480, Definitive Collection (NTSC) version. PM me if interested.


Darryl

[flaninacupboard]

i have 500megs of webspace if hosting is easier than torrenting...

[viande]

i have 500megs of webspace if hosting is easier than torrenting...

That would most absolutely rule.
My capture device is a CanonDV cam so anything at that quality would suit me fine.

Cheers!

[flaninacupboard]

ok, dphirschler PM me your email addy and i'll send you FTP info for my webspace. i'm assuming the clip is less than 500megs

[dphirschler]

Okay, the clip is ready. I made two versions, one huffyuv (64m) and one mjpeg (19m). But I am having a problem getting it onto the FTP. Help me, flaninacupboard. You're my only hope!


Darryl

[Eandtc]

BTW, my DVD is pretty much done.

[flaninacupboard]

Okay, the clip is ready. I made two versions, one huffyuv (64m) and one mjpeg (19m). But I am having a problem getting it onto the FTP. Help me, flaninacupboard. You're my only hope!


Darryl

You must come with me to your inbox, if you are to learn the ways of the FTP.

[viande]

Hi again

not to bring heresy all around, but you guys think it would be wise to ajust color balance/brightness/sharpness/other of our conversion using the official DVD release as comparison.. ive seen many frames of it, and compared with my old rip, and, frankly its a bit depressing (man the image is impecable on the DVD shots ive seen)
To see the reds and blues sharp and in their proper spots is very jaw dropping

The idea or doing a seamless branching version using the source m2v's from the dvd and our own rips might be interresting too.
It might be WAY too distracting though.

Any givers?

[Eandtc]

"you guys think it would be wise to ajust color balance/brightness/sharpness/other of our conversion using the official DVD release as comparison"

Not really. Decreasing the brightness brought out a little more detail in my DVD, and removed the matte boxes as well. 8)

[ntrprs]

but you guys think it would be wise to ajust color balance/brightness/sharpness/other of our conversion using the official DVD release as comparison.. ive seen many frames of it, and compared with my old rip, and, frankly its a bit depressing (man the image is impecable on the DVD shots ive seen)
To see the reds and blues sharp and in their proper spots is very jaw dropping
Any givers?

I'm not sure that is is a smart move - it would takes ages.... You would also have to remove thousands of spots etc that are on the original SE (and faces) versions to bring it into line. Apparently they removed something like 16000 or so spots frame by frame from the first movie alone!!!!

Take a look at the site (which I found the other day) wrt comparisions of the DVD release versus the previous versions. Some of the SE and DE captures are a bit dubious, but it is enough to get the idea. As a result, of their enhancements you can definitely see the difference.
http://www.themovieblog.com/archives/2004/08/star_wars_special_edition_vs_star_wars_20...terations.html
Yes, we all will be getting the DVD editions, but it also makes the OT and the SE versions all that much more precious.

Dave

PS: Please be warned a few of these shots contain a few spoilers....

[vhelp]

Hi all

@ viande,

The only problem with this is that we have some things to think about:

* Color Space - After you capture it (via Analog capture card) But, if
you use use a DV CAM 's passthrough, you'll have 4:1:1 color space (or,
lighter color source to deal with)

* A DVD 's color space is 4:2:2 (if I remember correctly)

* A Analog Capture 's color space is 4:2:0 - (thanks to the SOURCE being
... in 4:2:0 color space (before capturing) )


My take on the color thing (w/ DVD) is like this..

Because they have the original source (or, as close to it, since they did throw
out the negatives) they will have the most color-rich source. Because of
this, you can count on the color space to be much better than our Laserdisc,
which happens to be 4:2:0 (after capturing)
So, expect to see a dramatic difference between BOTH mediums (ie, DVD vs. Laserdisc)
.
Remember..
.
VCR / Laserdisc / Cable and Antenna / Satellite - are all 4:2:0 when we capture
it w/ our capture card.
.
Add to that, if we opt to go out DV route (ie, DV CAM 's passthrough) your
color space will be 4:1:1 (though 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 are similar in brightness)

A DVD (or, dvd rip) is 4:2:2 (as evident during a capture from DVD player, our
source richness is very rich (or dark) in color)

Trying to overlay (parallele) some footage from LD vs. DVD vs. original source
would most likely prove hardship, due to the color space between each medium.

So, with respect to all the above.. trying to adjust the colors to be "darker"
will prove heartship, if not a challenge. I'm not saying to NOT adjust colors.
I'm saying that if we try to match them (ie, Laserdisc vs. DVD) there will be
no contest ..that's all :P

PS: when 's the store-date ?? .. .. . cause I want mine, hehe

-vhelp

[Karyudo]

DV CAM 's passthrough, you'll have 4:1:1 color space

PAL DV is 4:1:1, NTSC DV is 4:2:0 (99% sure).

* A DVD 's color space is 4:2:2

No, it's 4:2:0 (for both NTSC and PAL, I believe).

* A Analog Capture 's color space is 4:2:0 - (thanks to the SOURCE being... in 4:2:0 color space (before capturing)

Not true. Analog caps can be RGB, which is not planar, but if it were, it'd be 4:4:4. You can also use YUV, which can be 4:2:2. Or maybe even 4:4:4? Not so sure.

[Y]ou can count on the color space to be much better than our Laserdisc, which happens to be 4:2:0 (after capturing)

Not true. I'm sure Lucasfilm can use something like Cineon (straight out of their digital telecine). Cineon is 4:4:4, but by the time it's DVD, it's 4:2:0. LD is analog, so it's not inherently anything planar. If you cap to HuffYUV RGB, then you've got 24 bits per pixel -- equivalent to 4:4:4.

VCR / Laserdisc / Cable and Antenna / Satellite - are all 4:2:0 when we capture it w/ our capture card.

It depends on the codec, as I've mentioned already.

Add to that, if we opt to go out DV route (ie, DV CAM 's passthrough) your color space will be 4:1:1 (though 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 are similar in brightness)

A DVD (or, dvd rip) is 4:2:2...

Actually, it's 4:2:0

...(as evident during a capture from DVD player, our source richness is very rich (or dark) in color)

This has nothing to do with colour space. It has a lot to do with gamma, IRE, etc., but the colour space doesn't matter.

Trying to overlay (parallele) some footage from LD vs. DVD vs. original source would most likely prove hardship, due to the color space between each medium.

I agree with the result (difficult), but not the reasoning. Again, colour space is not the issue.

[vhelp]

Hi Karyudo,

With regards to capture cards and 4:2:0 capturing..

This is my belief (and understanding to date, and based on my eye's experience) ..
That no matter high high or great your capture card can capture in (speaking of
color space - mind you, I hope I've ben using the right terminoligy all this time )
like 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 - I don't disagree with you here
And, in fact, I always understood this. But, what I'm refering to is when your
source is already in 4:2:0 color space. For instance, when you encode your source
files to MPEG (or MPEG-2) your encoding is going to encode with 4:2:0 color space.
.
Its not going to encode it to 4:2:2 (though, TMPG allows you to set this mode, and
it does work, but only Windvd will play these types of encodes (powerdvd does not)
and dvd2avi sometimes gives hick-ups during decoding of these 4:2:2 encodes)
.
Now. You capture this same encoded MPEG-2 (lets assume from this point on, MPEG-2)
your capture card will capture it as 4:2:0 ( not true 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 because remember,
your encoder encoded it as 4:2:0 ) (So, if your statement is true, that DVD source
is 4:2:0 ( and not 4:2:2 ) then this comment applies..
So, even though your capture card can capture in 4:2:2 (or even 4:4:4) AND, even if
your capture card uses a 4:2:2 (or better) capture codec, AND, captures your MPEG-2
source as 4:2:2 (or better) you are still capturing 4:2:0 color space, no matter what
interpolating the 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 goes on during capturing. Your codec is simply
containing the 4:2:0 inside a 4:2:2 container (if you look at it from that perspective)
.
Anyways. This is why I like (and prefer) Analog Capture cards over DV ones.. because
you can capture a given source and yield (IMO) better quality color space (even
given the above)

Also, if you encode your soruce to 4:2:2 (using TMPG) a source that you captured
as 4:2:0 (no matter what codec setting you used - be it 4:2:2 or better) you will
not see a difference even if you do encode it to 4:2:2 inside TMPG.

I had a feeling that someone would correct me on this either way
I hope you understand, that I do realize, what you stated (in response to my post
above) is true to a degree, I do hope that you too, realize that what I ment then,
(above) and (above in this post) is what I ment

I've always believed that DVD 's that are riped to your harddrive are 4:2:2 (but
only because of the richness of the color space) That's why I said DVD's are
4:2:2 color space. Perhaps I'm wrong

But, weather DVD's are 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 it cannot explain the difference in quality
between a DVD ripped to hard drive, and say, a capture from a Laserdisc player.
Both color richness will look opposite.

-vhelp

[Eandtc]

Mike_A: "I'm very saddened that he's thinking of splicing Natalie Portman into the originals..."

It's worse than you think. Here's a leaked image for the upcoming HD-DVD special editions in 2007...

[flaninacupboard]

For those wanting the Leia welding scene please check www.flaninacupboard.co.uk

Cheers to Dphirschler for capping these, hope you guys find it useful

[dphirschler]

I just noticed that I screwed up the audio in the huffyuv file. Grr! So get the wav file as well if you are downloading the huffyuv version. My apologies.


Darryl

[Mythos2002]

Man, I have a lot of reading to do. Somehow I was unsubbed from the thread and haven't been receiving messages.

Anyway, I do agree that it would be pretty difficult to color correct footage from the Original versions that would be spliced together with the SE versions.

Mythos