Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[Eandtc]

"You either cropped using an odd value from the top of the source video, inadvertantly changing it's field order."

That's possible. I'm cropping at 103 at the top, and 101 at the bottom, because that puts me right at the picture's edge. Should I try 102 and 100?

"You simply selected the wrong field order when encoding"

Well, going into Vegas, my uncropped AVI would say "bottom field first". Is there any program that can "find" the corect field order of, say, an unknown AVI?

"Your IVTC process is still not quite right, and your dropping the wrong set of fields."

Well, it looks pretty good frame-by-frame. I have some occasional "ghosts", like when the Tusken raider lifts his staff over Luke. I was under the impression that some ghosts would still remain due to interlacing (mid-frame movement.) How can I tell which defects are from field order, and which are from interlacing?

"Assuming you are going the AviSynth route"

I'm still getting used to VirtualDub & VDMod. I'm grateful for the GUI, and don't think I'm ready for script-only stuff yet. I am aware of the advantages (VDM drops into RGB mode, AVS has more scripts, etc.)

[ntrprs]

Well the IVTC'd AVI worked out fine - no jittering at all in any slow or fast motion scenes - there I must have got something right! (thanks to all for the assistance )

I have used a static noice reduction filter in VD (after IVTCing) to remove my banding - it does a reasonable job.

On my LD copy there have developed a few LD rot spots since I last saw it (GRRRRR!!!). I am currently playing a bit with the SpotRemover plugin for VD to see how this goes. There are a few spots, however, I have not been able to tweak the filter to detect - these are plain to the eye! Has anyone else used this particular filter for similar things?

Also, I have noticed in a few bright white scenes (eg the opening starship flyby) that the colour on the LHS of the frame seem to be out a bit in hue. Could this be due to the Laserdisc player or are all prints of the film like this? (see below for a sample)

Will keep you 'posted'....
Dave

[ntrprs]

BTW, I did a test encode the other night (using TMPGEnc and setting CQ100) and it came to around 4.8GB for the M2V file plus the PCM audio file. This looks promising too ....

(Yes, I was curious how big the file was going to be)

Dave

[Mike_A]

The discussion became a little too technical for me a while ago. However, I just want to say that it's awesome that you're deciding to go with the original Star Wars versions not the Special Editions. With the invention of CG into movies, George Lucas went f*cking crazy with it and completely lost all sense of what made his movies amazing. I mean...cutting off the Ewok song?! Man o man....the beginning of the end. I'm very saddened that he's thinking of splicing Natalie Portman into the originals...now he's really gone insane. Now I hear he's releasing a *special* version of THX-1138. Why can't he just leave his works alone??

[Eandtc]

"The discussion became a little too technical for me a while ago."

I know exactly how you feel. I was happy with my earlier capture until I saw what a difference these advanced techniques can make. I've had to jump through quite a few technical hurdles, but DAMN, it is sooooooo worth the effort.

"Also, I have noticed in a few bright white scenes (eg the opening starship flyby) that the colour on the LHS of the frame seem to be out a bit in hue."

Are you talking about the upper left-hand corner? I noticed that on mine as well. I was afraid it was the player. It might be the transfer after all...

[NamPla]

The discussion became a little too technical for me a while ago. However, I just want to say that it's awesome that you're deciding to go with the original Star Wars versions not the Special Editions. With the invention of CG into movies, George Lucas went f*cking crazy with it and completely lost all sense of what made his movies amazing. I mean...cutting off the Ewok song?! Man o man....the beginning of the end. I'm very saddened that he's thinking of splicing Natalie Portman into the originals...now he's really gone insane. Now I hear he's releasing a *special* version of THX-1138. Why can't he just leave his works alone??

Ha, you're not wrong Mike A! Why can't Hollywood in general just leave ALL the old movies alone? Their script writers are creatively bankrupt...

It's interesting, I always wondered why cinema declined after 1980 or so. (Sure, there's a few exceptions). Reading "Easy Riders, Raging Bulls" the blame is put on the release of the original "Star Wars" itself! :P

When are they going to remake Star Wars with completely new actors etc?

Anyone see that Simpsons episode taking the piss out of George Lucas?

[Eandtc]

No, but I can't WAIT for South Park's "Free Hat" episode to come to DVD.

[grimby]

Well, here is my ESB dvd menu work in progress...

ESB Menu (3MB/XviD) Please right-click and "save as" to download.

I think this will be awesome once I finish it all.

[Karyudo]

I was under the impression that some ghosts would still remain due to interlacing (mid-frame movement.)

For film-based material, there should be no mid-frame movement. I haven't played with the NTSC version for a long time; there might be disc mastering issues, I don't know. But film-based stuff by definition has no mid-frame movement.

[Karyudo]

I'm very saddened that he's thinking of splicing Natalie Portman into the originals...now he's really gone insane.

You are aware that Hayden's already in RotJ, right? I've seen it; it's real. He's there. All else being equal, I'd rather see Natalie...

[Karyudo]

Well, here is my ESB dvd menu work in progress...

...which is pretty hot! Nicely done. I have long wanted to do something similar, but I keep finding better and better sources and ways to process them that I've never gotten around to this sort of thing just yet.

A couple of comments:

- The "Star Wars" outline you're using isn't that great. There's got to be a better one someplace! Since you're using AE, it should be a pretty easy (i.e. vector masking?) change to make. If I find a good one, I'll let you know.

- You might consider "rocking" Ozzel (or whoever that guy is), just so the scene looks like it's still going, rather than just going completely static. The Ep I and II DVDs do this in places.

- Would you consider making your sources available for those of us with AE? You've got a great start here, and I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in getting started on Eps IV and VI, as well as tweaking what you've got for their own Ep V conversions.

Keep up the good work! It's lookin' mighty fine.

[grimby]

Thanks for the feedback! To be quite honest, this is my first attempt at anything with AE, and I'm learning as I go. I guess I'll have to figure out what vector masking is next.

And yes you're right, it would look much better if the characters were moving slightly. I've experimented with this a bit and it's looking pretty good.

The "star wars" outline I'm using was created in photoshop off of the "star jedi hollow" font. I really don't like it to be honest. Please let me know if you find something better.

I wouldn't mind making my source available, but it's a pretty hefty download for all of the source files. I'll have to think about it.

[Karyudo]

[T]his is my first attempt at anything with AE, and I'm learning as I go. I guess I'll have to figure out what vector masking is next.

Don't let me snow you: you've done one more thing in AE than I have. I've read up on it, but I've never played around. I know it's the tool to use for this sort of thing, but what things are called and how they're done? No idea.

So my 'vector masking' is a guess. What I meant is what you've clearly done: you've taken a vector source (text), used it to mask the clips that fill the letters, and then animated the whole works. So changing out the text doing the masking shouldn't be a frame-by-frame, bit-by-bit edit like it might be in VDubMod. That's all I was getting at.

BTW, the two fonts used for all the recent SW stuff are Trajan... and that one you're using. Albertus, I think? That's off the top of my head. I'll edit my post if I discover I'm wrong.

When you're talkin' 'hefty', how hefty you talkin'? Clearly, more than 3MB, but about how much more?

[grimby]

So my 'vector masking' is a guess. What I meant is what you've clearly done: you've taken a vector source (text), used it to mask the clips that fill the letters, and then animated the whole works. So changing out the text doing the masking shouldn't be a frame-by-frame, bit-by-bit edit like it might be in VDubMod. That's all I was getting at.

Yes, changing out the text would be quite easy. Just a layer of the animation that can be changed. I've never heard of those fonts you mentioned, but after a google search, I'll definitely have to get ahold of them. The "Episode 1" font is quite inferior.

When you're talkin' 'hefty', how hefty you talkin'? Clearly, more than 3MB, but about how much more?

Counting all the video files, psd images, and audio, it's at about 600MB at the moment.

[Mike_A]

I'm very saddened that he's thinking of splicing Natalie Portman into the originals...now he's really gone insane.

You are aware that Hayden's already in RotJ, right? I've seen it; it's real. He's there. All else being equal, I'd rather see Natalie...

I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If you're serious though, that's a terrible terrible shame.

[grimby]

He's being serious. I have the DVD rip, it''s there for sure.

[Karyudo]

I've never heard of those fonts you mentioned, but after a google search, I'll definitely have to get ahold of them. The "Episode 1" font is quite inferior.

PM me an e-mail address, and I'll see what I can do. Adobe wouldn't be too keen on anyone posting stuff here.

Counting all the video files, psd images, and audio, it's at about 600MB at the moment.

Oh, so you mean 'hefty'. I see. Hmm...

Could a decent text description of what you used and how you prepped it be written up in lieu of the raw files, such that everyone could quickly snip what's needed from their own capture attempts, perhaps? Something along the lines of, "starting from 1:42:23.234 / this frame (include JPG of first frame), you need a clip 54 frames long." That, plus the few files that are otherwise necessary (AE, maybe a PNG version of a PSD or two?) would potentially be distributable, wouldn't it??

It's your work; I'm only just makin' suggestions. Your call, maestro!

[ntrprs]

He's being serious. I have the DVD rip, it''s there for sure.

Just was browing eBay and saw there a quite a large number of the SWDE and SW Faces LD sets being sold at the moment. Obviously they do not know of the changes for the new DVD releases AND are not connoisseurs of the originals!!!

[Karyudo]

I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If you're serious though, that's a terrible terrible shame.

Deadly serious. Hayden's there. Dumb, eh?

I'm also serious about preferring Natalie, but as far as I know (like grimby, I have the DVD rip -- but I haven't watched yet) she's safe in Eps I, II and (presumably) III.

[grimby]

sending email addy...

Oh, so you mean 'hefty'. I see. Hmm...

Could a decent text description of what you used and how you prepped it be written up in lieu of the raw files, such that everyone could quickly snip what's needed from their own capture attempts, perhaps? Something along the lines of, "starting from 1:42:23.234 / this frame (include JPG of first frame), you need a clip 54 frames long." That, plus the few files that are otherwise necessary (AE, maybe a PNG version of a PSD or two?) would potentially be distributable, wouldn't it??

It's your work; I'm only just makin' suggestions. Your call, maestro!

That's possible. I'll see what I can do.

[Eandtc]

Oops! I think I figured out my problem. I've been telling VDM to change my source framerate in addition to IVTC, which would explain why I've been getting framerates of 19.18 rather than 23.97. It would also explain the jerkiness at high speed.

Now making new AVI's with IVTC ONLY.

[tedkunich]

I was under the impression that some ghosts would still remain due to interlacing (mid-frame movement.)

For film-based material, there should be no mid-frame movement. I haven't played with the NTSC version for a long time; there might be disc mastering issues, I don't know. But film-based stuff by definition has no mid-frame movement.

@Karyudo

There is really something funny about the THX LD transfer - there are scenes all over where there are artifacts or ghosting, noticably in very fast motion scenes. There is a scene where Lea's head swivels, and you can see the outline of her hair on her face - disc 2 side 2 of SW Definitive set.... It is plainly visible directly from the LD on pause.

Lucas was really smoking something when they did that transfer - very poor.... I found many, many frames were there were burns, dust, scratches, film splices, and a fingerprint or two..... My flawed frame count reached well over 15K when I stopped caring..... (to be fair, much of that was from Laser Rot, not film flaws, but I still get pissed when I see those flashes go by as the movie is playing.....)

T

[Karyudo]

There is really something funny about the THX LD transfer - there are scenes all over where there are artifacts or ghosting, noticably in very fast motion scenes.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. My favourite is when the Stormtrooper pops up with a ring bearing or something in the Tatooine desert. Funk-y. But I don't think that's an interlacing artifact. Not as such, anyway. Definitely introduced during telecining, though.

I think just about any pre-digital transfer's going to have some crap. Still, I have become somewhat disillusioned with just exactly what "THX" is supposed to mean, if some of that junk made the cut.

BTW, your rot problems would be over if you checked out some of the new stuff over on doom9...

[dphirschler]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. My favourite is when the Stormtrooper pops up with a ring bearing or something in the Tatooine desert. Funk-y. But I don't think that's an interlacing artifact. Not as such, anyway. Definitely introduced during telecining, though.

I've seen no such telecine problem in my own capture. But I am gonna have a closer look tonight.

Specifically, what are you referring to? If you are talking about the bright flashes at the bottoms of frames right before a cut scene, yes the movie is plagued with them. My favorite is when R2D2 gets shot by the jawas and right before he falls down, a bright blue flash goes across the bottom of the frame.

But that is not related at all to the telecine (3:2 pulldown). I've not seen the first split field or blurred field in the telecining. Every frame converts to progressive just fine.


Darryl

[dphirschler]

FWIW, from what I've read, the term "laser rot" has people confused as to exactly what it is. There are two conflicting descriptions.

1. Laser rot manifests itself as bright blue and red blurry spots randomly throughout the video. To me they look more like film transfer errors, but I believe this is truely laser rot.

2. Laser rot looks like bright single pixel white dots followed by 10 or so darker dots. They always go horizontal and are always no thicker than a single pixel line. I see these most often on VHS and have called them "comets". I am not so sure this is laser rot though.

Anyone know for sure? I can post pictures if need be (later tonight).


Darryl

[tedkunich]

I've seen no such telecine problem in my own capture. But I am gonna have a closer look tonight.
Darryl

@ Darryl

Be careful what you wish for.... the more you know that there is a problem, the more you will obsess over it

Here is the frame seqence I was refering to... Linkie Sorry cannot post pictures directly here, damn Geocities will not allow direct picture linkage....

The Laser rot is a completely different issue.... I'm more and more convinced that the severity of the problem is influenced by the player, more specifically, the what type of laser is in use. My player is a combi unit that plays LDs and DVDs - it sucks with regards to these flaws. I borrowed a Philips LD player a while back and it did not show a tenth of what mine shows.... They manifest themselves as white, red, blue, or green spots that are one pixel high, by anywhere from 2 to 20 pixels long. The are very annoying, and there are some scenes on my set that are unwatchable due to the severity. I meticulously went through ESB to run Frizik's Despot filter where possible or hand retouched the frames that Despot could not handle properly. I'm about 2 hours away from finishing up running the film through Didee's iip processor... @ around 2fps, I'm on hour 23 now....


T

[tedkunich]

BTW, your rot problems would be over if you checked out some of the new stuff over on doom9...

Did I miss something???

I thought I had all the bases covered..... went so far as to code my own filter to ID all the laser rot frames.....


T

[NamPla]

Ermm, when you good fellows have finished playing around, please get in touch with me, I wanna get a copy of ORIGINAL STAR WARS on DVD heh!!!!

No joking! 8)

[dphirschler]

Here is the frame seqence I was refering to...

OK, I see that. I also notice that same effect when Greedo falls dead.

That has nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown. My transfer is the same. I believe that is the effects of temporal noise reduction on the LD itself. It could be in the player I suppose if it is automatically applying a filter on playback. I have suspected that the DVL-909 player does that, but have no way to prove it at this point. I did read the the successor to the 909, the 919, can be set to NOT apply the NR filter on playback.

But I think it is in the LD disc itself. My other (music concert) discs do not show this artifact.


Darryl

[tedkunich]

Here is the frame seqence I was refering to...

OK, I see that. I also notice that same effect when Greedo falls dead.

That has nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown. My transfer is the same. I believe that is the effects of temporal noise reduction on the LD itself. It could be in the player I suppose if it is automatically applying a filter on playback. I have suspected that the DVL-909 player does that, but have no way to prove it at this point. I did read the the successor to the 909, the 919, can be set to NOT apply the NR filter on playback.

But I think it is in the LD disc itself. My other (music concert) discs do not show this artifact.


Darryl

@ Darryl

It is a crappy transfer... as if there was some some improper Telecening done prior to the the LD mastering.... The player has nothing to do with this - the pictures posted were from a friends DVL704, my DVL919 does the same thing.... NR in the player is always off.... it is most definitely in the LD mastering....


T