Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[Mythos2002]

EandTC,

Is the motion smooth? I wonder if it could be that the field order is switched. If you have TMPGEnc, I would load your AVI into that using the wizard just to see what field order it says it in. You don't have to use it to encode with if you don't want to though.

Mythos

[Karyudo]

I played around with aspect ratio last night. My original capture was 704x480. I resized the frame to 640x480 for 1:1 square pixels. Then I found a frame with something round. The final result was I had to pad 20 pixels on each side until the circle was finally round. Can this be right?

I think what you should be doing is:

- cap at 704 x 480
- pad to 720 x 480
- resize to 640 x 480
- then compare

I haven't done the math, but that should be closer. I'm pretty sure that 704 --> 640 doesn't make things 1:1 square. I'm fairly certain the PAR is based on a 720-pixel width.

Gotta remember, too, that all the analog stuff is probably subject to a little variation here and there, so even the people doing the original transfer may have said, "Close enough!" at some point.

[ntrprs]

Yeah, there will be a lot of little tweaks made to the dvd's. Some of these include a more TPM-looking Jabba in ANH, Luke doesn't scream on the way down anymore, Hayden Christensen as a ghost at the end of Jedi, Boba Fett's voice redubbed by Temura Morrison (Jango Fett), Ian McDiarmid as the Emperor in ESB....

Most interesting...

I've heard various people have seen 'previews'.

What was your source? I'm just hoping that they do not change them too much - which is why we are going back to the originals isn't it?

ntrprs

[gshelley61]

There are AR variations and flaws in commercial video sources. I have an old 4:3 pan & scan Blade Runner laserdisc that has a pretty obvious vertical squeeze AR flaw (everthing looks too skinny). The Definitive Collection Star Wars laserdiscs sometimes appear to be "stretched" horizontally a little bit (in some scenes the Death Star isn't a perfect circle, for example).

[Eandtc]

Okay, tell me how I'm doing so far. I got VirtualDub to work (though I can still only capture in RGB.)

From my AVI





From my MPEG (with bottom field, and deinterlaced)






BTW, do my colors look better now?

[Mr_Green_Jean]

Hi All,

On 09/21/04 You can buy Star Wars 4,5, and 6.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/upcomingart4.html

[Karyudo]

On 2004-09-21 You can buy Star Wars 4,5, and 6.

Oh, wow! Thanks for the info!

Seriously, don't you think we're aware? You should maybe read more of this thread than the last three posts. It's cumbersome, I know, so let me summarize:

- the new DVDs will have even more changes than the 1997 Special Editions

- we, as a general rule, don't particularly like the SEs

- even if we did, it's the journey, not the destination

[Eandtc]

"On 09/21/04 You can buy Star Wars 4,5, and 6. "

What a dingbat. Do you read threads before you post?

[Marco33]

Hi All,

On 09/21/04 You can buy Star Wars 4,5, and 6.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/upcomingart4.html

That's what I said before. People will be going out and buying up these new version not having a clue about what they really are.

[gshelley61]

I think Lucas figures the vast majority won't realize or know the difference... they'll think it's been "digitally restored" (improved) or something. Only hardcore fans and movie buffs will even care.

[Eandtc]

"People will be going out and buying up these new version not having a clue about what they really are."

Agreed, because every LFL interview I've scene, including Lucas himself, deliberately avoids mentioning or discussing the changes. Of course, I've seen the screencaps and some video captures. The visual quality is great, but the changes aren't acceptable.

[Mythos2002]

I think it would be great to get CNN and other news networks to report that the upcoming DVD's will not have the Original Versions on them so that more people will be aware. I did see some smaller publications make note of this when Lucas was upset because Columbia is releasing a couple of 3 Stooges DVD's which include colorized versions of some of their shorts. However, the same DVD's do include the black and white versions, so consumers can pick which version they want to watch. This is something we all know Lucas is not giving us a choice of with Star Wars.

Back on topic.

Eandtc,

Could you tell me what your process is? I know your last capture was with VirtualDub. Are you doing any IVTC? I see you mentioned deinterlacing. I would try IVTC instead of deinterlacing. If you have TMPGEnc, I would load your AVI in that. Go to the video tab and set the frame rate to 23.976fps and then go to Encode Mode and choose 3:2 pulldown when playback. Then go to advanced and check source range to pick out a small sample of your AVI to test with. Then go to Inverse Telecine and choose the Auto-Setting. When Auto-Setting pops up, choose 24fps (flicker prioritized), Deinterlace: None and hit start. Then encode your test clip. If it jumps around, switch the field order and do IVTC again and then test that. My WinFastTV2000 card uses Top Field first.

I hope that helps. I've heard that Virtual Dub has better IVTC, so I am going to experiment with that, but TMPGEnc should be fine to use for a few quick tests.

Your colors look fine. I also forget. Are you in PAL or NTSC land?

Thanks.

Mythos

[Eandtc]

NTSC, pal.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. )

I've got some questions about IVTC, but I need to get some sleep. Talk to ya later.

EDIT: Here's a question....

"Go to the video tab and set the frame rate to 23.976fps"

Should I capture at 23.976 or 29.97 (which I've been doing so far.)

Hey, good news. When I use the capture program that came with the MainConcept MPEG encoder program, the resulting Huffy AVI and the Alparysoft AVI's are recognized by Vegas (and no frames were dropped in my test capture). This means I have a YUY2 capture. WOOHOO!

[Mythos2002]

Hi Eandtc,

Always capture at 29.97fps. That's great that you have the YUY2 capturing worked out and no lost frames. If you loose enough frames, that can cause IVTC and audio sync issues.

I still need to experiment doing IVTC with VirtualDub as I have heard many times that it is better than TMPGEnc's. The only thing is that you have to experiment more with it. I figured TMPGEnc's IVTC filter would be good for you to get started with because it is easy to use especially on short clips. You can test the field order in TMPGEnc in the IVTC filter without encoding, but you have to set your monitor to a high resolution to get all of TMPGEnc's filter screen to fit on your monitor's screen. Mine is only set to 800x600, so I have to up the resolution to 1024x768 to see the entire filter screen. I don't like doing that, so that is why I recommend encoding a small clip (or using the source range filter to specify a small portion of your AVI) with one field order, then IVTCing and testing. If it comes out jerky, switch the field order, reIVTC and test again.

I hope that helps.

Mythos

[Eandtc]

"I figured TMPGEnc's IVTC filter would be good for you to get started with because it is easy to use especially on short clips."

I have TMPGEnc, but it needs a serial number.

"Mine is only set to 800x600, so I have to up the resolution to 1024x768 to see the entire filter screen."

I run at 1024x768 all the time.

Actually, my biggest problem with now is adjusting the brightness and contrast for the MPEG. My AVI looks great, but when I get the stars to show up in the background, the details on the SD get washed out as it passes overhead. Suggestions? Would adjusting the gamma help?

[vhelp]

@ Eandtc

I'm not sure what capture app you are using. But, as I noticed that your
pics were slightely blurry, I would assume that your software app (what
ever it is) is either blending or de-interlacing, hence the "ghost" look in
some of your pics.
.
Doing a capture to MPEG (in real-time) is not always a good idea, unless
you are lazy (no pun inteded ) or because you are in a hurry and do not
need "quality" as a factor in your quest, or whatever your reasons, (if you
are capping in real-time, on the fly, to MPEG)
.
The only way to get as best a conversion / transfer (assuming LD to DVD)
you will need to capture to .AVI format, and then do the Edit and Encode
afterwards. Inside your editing (or duing TMPG's encoding) you'll have to
add in an IVTC process. The best transfer from these LD's will be from an
IVTC process. Only because these movies are Film in nature. That is, they
are shot 24 fps (Telecined to 29.970) There are many. Choose what will work
for you.
The way I do mine is "manually" and its a great pain, and not one I would
recommend to anyone just starting out.., you'll be asking too many add'l
questions to the point of exhaustion. Those that have ben doing encode
projects over the years have a better grasp of the fundamentals (not that
I have them down pat, mind you.., cause I slip here and there )
.
You could try and AVIsynth script, and use Decomb(), but that also
requires some knowledge of .AVS scripting. But, you might get away with
a few lines of codes from this sites many guides :P There are too many to
list here, and the params for some are enough to make you give up, and
go with one of those real-time encoder (ie, MMC for instance)
What I'm saying here, is that it's not something that will be easy. Speaking
of IVTC, etc. I just want you to know that. But if you're still willing to learn
a new routine, then do a few research here and doom9 on IVTC. You'll get
lots of hits. Note, very few people hit it right, the first time. It's easy for
an more experienced person to say, "yeah, it's easy and you'll be up and
running in know time". But, that's only because we''ve done it for so long.
.
Even the routine that I use in IVTC is yet another way to do them. Only,
it's not agreed upon by most peoples here (that's ok) and, I have trouble
with it sometimes (not working, for instance) but most of the time, I can
get it to work, w/ a little fitzing around on my part) pfew.

Seriously though, I think there are a number of script samples just inside
this long thread, on various pages. If you look through each page, you may
find a few samples. If you're not familiar w/ .AVS scripting, than you have
to learn the Syntax of the scrip command/functions and what they do, and
how to use them, and when to use them, and which would benefit what
capture source projects, etc.

Good luck :P

Hi All,

On 09/21/04 You can buy Star Wars 4,5, and 6.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/upcomingart4.html

That's what I said before. People will be going out and buying up these new version not having a clue about what they really are.

..me to (but only because I want to compare mine against some
scene's that I did vs. the new'ly commercial DVD's)

* I also want to get an idea of the Aspect Ratio they will be using, And..
* I want to see if they Anamorphic it, and see if they sourced it at 852.
* and a few other tid-bits.

Cheers all
-vhelp

[Eandtc]

"(if you are capping in real-time, on the fly, to MPEG)"

I'm not. I've posted pics of my AVI's and their subsequent Mpegs. Here's a newer set.


"hence the "ghost" look in some of your pics."

Well, it only shows up on a few intermittent frames, so I'm probably just going to disregard it at this point. IVTC in any of these programs just isn't blowing my skirt up.

"But if you're still willing to learn a new routine, then do a few research here and doom9 on IVTC."

Been there, done that. (Hell, Doom9 is where I learned to convert the PCM 2.0 to DD 5.1 8) ) I've got so many different routines, it's not even funny. As much as I would like the ultimate video quality, this is delving into far too much minutia for me at this point in time (though I do appreciate your input. )

[calhoun]

I've had the original trilogy in widescreen on DVD for ages now.

I purchased the the Widescreen VHS tapes and captured them using Analog>Digital Video Converter and encoded to DVD compliant stream, authored and burnt to printable DVDR. Then scanned and cropped the VHS covers for printing onto my DVDs.

Sweet..

They are the pride of my collection

[Eandtc]

^^^ Sounds nice.

So, can anyone tell me what is a good procedure for doing 2-3 pulldown frame by frame? Is there a program that can help find the correct sequence? I've tried loading my AVI into TMPGenc (I guess it works without the serial number) so that I can mess with the IVTC settings, but it keeps closing on me. I'd hate to have to do another capture for it.

BTW, does TPMGenc allow for cutting/pasting of the AVI (to remove side changes/swaps)? I've got Vegas chewing on the AVI to create an MPEG with 2-pass VBR with a max bitrate of 6,000 and an avergage of 4,000, just to see what size file I get. I'm at 20% completely after 16 hours. I've tried some short sequences with the IVTC settings in Vegas, but only when making the actual MPEG (I can read the Alpary AVI in Vegas, but I can't re-save it as such.) I get jerky scenes, and the combined frames aren't always correct.

I guess what I'm asking is, if I was anal enough about it, is it possible/worth it to convert to 24 FPS frame by frame (yes, all 200,000 of them )

[Mythos2002]

Eandtc,

I can't answer all of it, but I can tell you that VirtualDub works great at editing the LD sides together seamlessly. I use it to edit together AVI files. There is a version that can do MPEG files, but I don't like to edit MPEG files that much since they can't always be edited frame specific (they really on GOP's or something like that). At least as far as I know.

Mythos

[Eandtc]

Agreed about editing MPEG's. Unless it has a low I-frame setting (I use 6), It's really kinda pointless for scene changes. I come across this problem all the time with DVD Shrink.

[vhelp]

I'm staring to believe now, ..that there is no better way than to deal with your
source as Post Process. That is.., (after capturing) you do your editing and
IVTC 'ing and Save As an new .AVI source file that you would feed inside to
TMPG for just the encoding part.

You have to the right method that works best for your captured source's
project. I've done many various kinds of IVTC methods.., from TMPG's to
AVIsynth to virtualdub.

The best one I've found to work flawlessly (and I've ben chewed out
on this method before) is the I described above.., via Post Process, and let
virtualdub do the IVTC for you. BUT, this can be (has has ben for me) very
tricky (and messy) for you. I know I've described my method before, so I
won't re-invent the wheel again here
.
But, when you have segmented .AVI sources, you can bring them all inside
to vdub and do your editing and IVTC 'ing and Post Process your source
that way - as I do now. Your source has to be TRUE film in nature, and you
also:

a) - MUST NOT DROP A SINGLE FRAME
b) - your capture app must not screw up the Field Order

As long as the above (A and B) are not met, vdub's built-in IVTC process
will work flawlessly. But, you have to know where to begin your editing (or
start of your IVTC) That, I also explained elsewhere's. But, I'll add it here
for you
You select the frame that starts at the first Progressive frame.
For example:

II PPP II PPP II PPP

Where the I 's are Interlace and the P 's are Progressive frames.

You hight-light the area your want to Post Process and proceed to Save As,
your soure file to an .AVI file. Remember, you need plenty of HD space.
Otherwise, you'll have to frameserve your source, which will of course,
mess some more with your color space, and and possibly screw up your
IVTC as well.

The problem with the above, (on a whole) is that you have to think like a
pro, when attempting this method (that I use) of above. The so called pros
take great effort in editing the source prior to a final MPEG. When we all
do these projects, we have to sort of think like they do to. After all, some
of these projects are "time-capsules" - well, to me at least. These are sort
of treasures, and I take great pride in working on this special projects.
But, if you just want something real quick and dirty, you can just get one
of those Hardware MPEG boards (or real-time capturing cards) and do it
quick, but, and just live with the artifacts and blending that these produce.

FWIW..

Because of a failed card, I've updated my to a new capture card:
Winfast TV2000 XP "Expert" - REV C
This card's board has ben revised yet again.

Cheers,
-vhelp
--> starwarstrilogyset.se_anh.chp21_video_ts.rar - last Star Wars sample clip 07.31.2004pm

[Eandtc]

After some tinkering, I just got a "no-dropped-frames" capture of side 1.

One-third of the way there, and working on side 2 now.....

A question: I started the capture before playing the LD (letting the FPS get up to speed. I got better results this way.) Now, since I obviously want to cut several seconds off the beginning of each of my 3 AVI's, do I IVTC each one first, save as a new AVI, and then cut&paste the resulting segments together. Doesn't IVTC look for and "lock-on" to the 3-2 pattern?

[Karyudo]

Get AviSynth. Get Decomb. Do a little poking around with some defaults, etc. Done. No intermediate files necessary.

[Eandtc]

Good News: I just finished capturing all 3 sides with no dropped frames!

//pats self on back

Bad News: Now, what I did do in the process was, if I did get a dropped frame, I kept the capture going and simply restarted the LD player. That means I have up to 10 minutes of video before the actual video that I want. Should I cut the AVI at the "reset" point (and if so, where?), or should I just run IVTC/decomb/whatever from the beginning of the whole AVI?

Or should I try it both ways?

[Eandtc]

You know, something just occured to me as I was going over this project: Why am I converting to 24fps in the first place? Isn't DVD at 30 frames per second, or am I missing something in the process?

I'm just trying to figure out what the advantage to IVTC is, and also, should I render the resulting MPEG at 30 fps, or 24 fps with 3-2 pulldown?

[Karyudo]

Why am I converting to 24fps in the first place? Isn't DVD at 30 frames per second, or am I missing something in the process?

DVD can be encoded as 24fps, with pulldown on playback. This gives you 20% more bitrate per frame. Which is better, of course.

[S]hould I render the resulting MPEG at 30 fps, or 24 fps with 3-2 pulldown?

24fps (23.976, actually) with pulldown.

[Mythos2002]

One advantage of IVTC is bitrate. Since you are taking out duplicate frames, you aren't wasting your bitrate by encoding those. Bitrate is applied per second and not per frame. So, you are applying more bits to 6 less frames per second. Imagine how many frames you are getting ready in a 2 hour period. For a better explanation, check this link:
http://www.inwards.com/~dbb/interlace_myths.html

There are a couple of other advantages, but I can't think of what they are. IVTC alot of times is mixed up with interlacing, but they are two different things. I can tell you that IVTC is only good on Telecined sources.

I hope that link will help explain things better. Just scroll down to where it talks about IVTC.

Mythos

Looks like Karyudo beat me to the punch. He is correct though.

[Eandtc]

Ah, gotcha. I knew there had to be a reason for all this, and you guys filled in the blanks very nicely. Thank you!

So the DVD is at 24 fps, and you make the DVD player do all the work That would make sense, since the digital nature of DVD/MPEG makes it much easier to scale/adjust/etc., versus the analog nature of LD, which I presume could only be encoded at 30 fps (interlaced?)

[Eandtc]

OK, next question.

I know that DVD's play differently between monitors and tv's, so, other than acually burning a DVD, is there any way to check the quality of the 24fps conversion? (My home DVD player doesn't read rewiteables.)

Okay, I've created a 24fps segment, and here's the results...



I can see where scenes have been joined, but the playback is not nearly as smooth, and I'm concerned about the "junk" located in some of the scenes (i.e. outlines or shadows from the joined images.) Is this as good as it gets? Should I watch it on a home DVD player to see how it looks there?