Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[Mythos2002]

Well, I finished the first half of Hope, but I ran into a few problems.

1.) The black bars were too different shades. I've never seen this before. The bars were nice and dark black as they should be close to the video image. These dark bars where about an inch or two thick on top and bottom. After that, there where lighter black bars that went from the outer edge of the dark black bars to the top and bottom edge of the TV screen. I've never seen this before. My encodes of ESB didn't turn out that way using the same settings. Any ideas.

2.) The IVTC must have gotten a little off during a very small segment. During part of the confrontation between Han and Greedo, the video looks like it goes into slow motion for about 10 seconds. This segment doesn't have smooth motion like the rest of the encode.

3.) During the laser battle between the Rebels and Stormtroopers during the beginning of the film, the black bar at the bottom jumps down a little during the laser blasts. I've never seen that before either.

I hope these problems aren't issues with frameserving. That was my first time doing it. I had to frameserve because I had to have Virtual Dub be in full processing mode for the subtitles I made to work. The subtitles where the only Virtual Dub filter I used, but the full processing wanted to make the AVI file over 100Gb when I tried to save it. That's why I had to frameserve.

It's too bad I had these problems because the image and colors looked really nice. Oh well, back to the drawing board again.

Mythos

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi Guys,

Add me to to your list of SW LD converters.

I've been reading this thread (phew) and it's proved invaluable to me. The NTSC 3:2 pulldown was a big issue initialy as I was getting all sorts of motion problems when converting the captured avi to mpg. TMPGenc seems the easiest program to use for smoothing out the video (IVTC), so I've done all of my encoding there. Premir can probably do this, but I've limited experience with it.

I had to delay the sound by + 131ms to get it to be in sync forconverting to mpg2 too, but TMPGs audio/video screen (source range)can help line up some sound to video cues.

I'm making them anamorphic purely because I can then use the w/s tv to convert to 16:9 mode and not use zoom which can be a problem with menus. I coudn't get it to work using the TMPG screen selections (I did experiment a bit), so I just removed 60 lines from top and bottom (as per someone elses recommendation).

The only problem is that with TMPG you can't crop to the letterbox and stretch the image at the same time, only one or the other. It would be nice to be able to output the avi as an avi with the strtched video, then crop the remaining black bars when converting to mpg. Can this be done?

Another issue is the sound - the captured avi has a little hiss to it, and it seems a bit worse when converting to mpg. To get round this, I had to split the audio from video, but from the finished mpg. I used sound forge to reduce the hiss, and to lower the volume slightly (it clipped a little after processing), but then TMPG didn't like the resulting audio file, even if it was back in the same fornat it was extracted in. Just running hiss reduction allowed TMPG to remux the files, but the result crashed both powerdvd and wmp on playback.

I've used Premiere to remux the files that TMPG didn't like, so that might be the way to go in future. I'll have to compare the video/audio of the original mpg and the mpg with processed audio to see if Premiere has affected the playback in any way. Getting the remuxed audio/vide to finish at the same time is a slow affair as you have to render it and se what it looks like. Altering the times of sound and video to match isn't the easy solution you think it should be!

It's certainly been a lot of trial and error getting this far, and although I now have the definitive edition box set, the SEs on less discs have better image quality ( a friend lent them to me). It's very tempting (as has already been mentioned) to use a lot of footage from these and mix in the unaltered original sound or footage. A very long winded way to do it and with lots more problems no doubt, but tempting none the less.

Gary.

[vhelp]

Just an update to my ANH dvd encode project.

I've managed to get pretty good quality out of my widescreen vhs version
of ANH tape. The few tests I was able to run through a DVD-R disk seem to
have proved worthy of this project.
.
.
I do have problems though, only w/ DVD+RW disks (another topic) anyways..

I'm having an issue w/ the Aspect Ratio though. I'm trying to duplicate the
exact same level of AR that is using on the VHS version and it is proving a
hard time at time. The issue is, I can't get the left/right side to AR properly
and more then 30% is cut off (not an overscan issue)

Another slight issue is the dark scenes (ie, the escape pod scene w/ the
droids) the scene seems to be on the slight hint of greenishy look. i'm not
sure how to describe. Better if I just fix it w/ some tweaking. This is where
the DVD+RW's are suppose to come in, but since I can't produce them w/
my OptoRite writer (even w/ my new v2.30 firmware upgrade) I'm at a loss
and am using up too many DVD-R needlessly.

But still, the process is moving forward :P I can't wait till it's finished. I really
just need to get the AR down right. I need to see the whole widescreen, and
not minus 30% of it. The thickness of the top/bottom seems to either be too
much or tool little. VHS is very tricky inthis respect. Either it's suppose to
be 640x480 or 720x480 (not 352x480) for these Aspect Ratio repdocution.
I think that because of the 640 vs. 720 there is an issue w/ getting the AR
laid out correctly on the tv screen. in short, I should be able to duplicate
the VHS's top/bottom thickness in AR.

Well, that's if for now.
-vhelp

[Gary Lightfoot]

I'm using a Belkin USB2 capture device with Ulead 6 software, and I set that to capture at 720 x 480. I get the full width and correct ratio with that setting from my laserdiscs, and I would think you should too.

HTH

Gary.

[vhelp]

hi Gary,

No. What I do is basically the same thing, but w/ my advc. I cap at 720x480.

I'm not encoding w/ 4:3 here. I'm encoding a 4:3 source (cause that's what
VHS is) and TMPG encode by default this way. But, I'm encoding w/ 16:9
mode instead, for widescreen purposes. But, even if I were to encode the
source as 16:9 (widescreen) when played on a standards tv set, it would
just put the blak bars at top/bottom and display "equivalently" in any tv set
and w/ "equivalent" aspect ratio

The problem is, no-one knows for sure what a VHS (vcr) 's true resolution
is. Too many theories (including my own) - I would assume it's 640x480,
but I'm capturing at 720x480. So, that must mix things up a bit. Plus, add
to that, that the source's AR is 4:3 to begin with. I usually refer to this as
Flat. DVD's are ~852 x 480 and stretch (compressed inward) to a 720, and
we can generally reverse that. But, VHS is a whole different ball game.
The source is not stretched. Rather, we have to think as scanlines (or occilliscope/
waveline) or something, cause there doesn't seem to be any "real" resolution
when it comes to VHS But, I'd still like to know the true math behind
this medium for my AR projects

-vhelp

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi vhelp,

that's an interesting problem..

My laserdiscs are also 4:3, so what I'm doing is capturing as 4:3, then when I render with TMPGenc, I don't use any of the aspect ratio settings, I just leave it as 'source aspect 4:3 (525 line NTSC, 704 x 480)', and 'video arrange method Full Screen'.

I then have two options:

1. Using 'clip frame' with the top and bottom mask boxes ticked, crop approx 100 from top and bottom of the image to remove the black bars (mine will probably differ to yours, but it's 106 top, 99 bottom), then render as letterbox, or

2. Using 'clip frame', with the top and bottom mask boxes *unticked*, crop 60 from top and bottom. This stretches the image upwards, and then when viewed on a widescreen tv, you manualy switch to widescreen mode, and it squashes the image to the correct aspect ratio.

I tried the various aspect settings, but couldn't get a correct anamorphic output. Stretching up/down by 60 does seem to work though. The only thing I'd like to be able to do there, is to both crop the black bars *and* stretch the image up and down, but it looks like it'll only let me do one or the other, not both.

I also found a setting in the 'quantise matrix' menu which seems to allow better block noise removal in the mpeg encoding. Not sure if it works, but my first encode of the second disk seems to be the best result yet - I did this one as letterbox though, and it might also be improving the motion in some scenes too, so I'm going to try and do a few more tests to see if I can get a better image from the first disk.

I'm thinking of putting screen shots of all my TMPGenc settings on my webspace, so others can see what I'm doing. I'll stick one on here if I can.

Gary.

[Gary Lightfoot]

The anamorphic settings:



This is from my first capture of the first disk, the second disk seems better. I'll try to recapture the first side and re-render it to see if it improves.

HTH

Gary.

[vhelp]

@ gary,

There's a problem here that I don't think you fully understand, w/ my
AR problem

My aim is to have a source conversion that IS 16:9 (not 4:3 w/ letterbox)

When I encode my source as widescreen (ws and 16:9) they display as
ws, but the problem is, they are not showing the FULL ws. They are
showing left/right cutt off too much. Here is an example of such, of
what I'm talking about. The pic below is from a snap-shot pic of the actual
MPEG-2 file inside vdubMOD:




I also did some pearcing around w/ some numbers and came up w/ what
confuses me, thus far:

* My source is an advc capture at 720 x 480
* Source is VHS, widescreen movie
* after cropping out blak bars, numbers are: (96x95)=(191-480)=289
...as my calculated aspect ratio (ar) = (720/289)=2.491 (or 2:49)
...doing a little more calc to base THIS movie's AR at 2:35 (as it's speced
...via online Movie databases, we get a final target: (680/289)=2.35
...or (2.352941176 to be exact)

So, the above tells me my VCR is outputing a resolution of 680 (or not)
If I dare to believe. Only more testing (this theory) out on other widescreen
VHS sources could (or might) prove this theory w/ some weight. Nevertheless..

My end goal, is to duplicate the SAME AR that the VHS tape is AR'ing.
..with the exact amount of blak bars, and no sight of stretching around.
My gut theory is, that with this target, the final encode of this source
would yield almost, if not, any lesser quality than the first, if we
compare VHS to DVD encode (and a nomimal bitrate)

-vhelp

[vhelp]

@ gary,

ok, the problem I'm having w/ your process, is that your end result will be
that of a 1:78 aspect ratio (AR) because 60pix, 60pix = (120-480) = 360.

720 x 360 is equivalent to an AR of 1.78, which is a Fullscreen Widescreen,
on a Widescreen TV set :P

But, the movie's AR is 2.35 !!

So, in effect, you've change not only the AR, but you've also distorted the
original scope of the movie's view (aka, theatrical effect)

You goal should be as mine, to duplicate this theatrical effect (or scope) :P

Can you post an actual pic of the source .avi of that same shot for us please ??
Use vdub and Ctrl+1 and leave as is (not tainting) I'm curious. U/L here as
you did in your above pic :P

-vhelp

[vhelp]

hi gary, again..

I did some messing around some w/ your pic you U/L'ed :P

I concluded that your calc'ed AR Height was 370. After cropping around
I got 58x52 in my numbers.. thus.. (58+52)=110, -480 = 370 !!

Are you PAL or NTSC ??
All my calcs are based on the assumption of NTSC here. But, I'm pretty
sure you're NTSC, cause my calc'ed numbers indicate that if you were from
PAL, the smalled Width resolution would be 828x480. And, that's not good.
But, using NTSC, shows me that 370 gives me a close no. of 713x480
(note, I'm off a few pix because you'r pic was distorted, not to mention my
cuts/crop in PSP)
.
.
But even so.. based on your pic above (and my calc's) your source seems
to indicate it has a AR of 1:85.1 because my 713 no. above was in line
w/ 1.85 AR. So, I'm confused. Maybe it is your LD player settings or your
capture card.

* What is your capture card ??
* and our LD player brand/model ?? ( ..good output quality :P )

-vhelp

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi again.

I'm using ntsc laserdiscs via a Pioneer 515 and composite output (cheap 2nd hand player from another forum). The capture 'card' is an external Belkin usb2 capture device with Ulead 6se software.

The option is to either capture as 4:3 letterbox, and to display on a widescreen tv, where I will have to use the zoom function to dosplay it full width, or capture as 4:3 and stretch the image by 120 as shown. I can then use the anamorphic stretch of the tv to make the image the correct apsect ratio - the height remains the same, but the width increases accordingly. Having tried this on both my ws tv and htpc/projector set-up, I can confirm that it works perfectly.

The picture you see is deliberately distorted as are all anamorphic DVDs, so the widescreen tv can stretch the image sideways to display it in the correct scope setting ratio of 2.35:1. (the image *including* black bars will be 16:9 when stretched sideways)

Rather than mess about with the 4:3 and 16:9 settings which I couldn't get to work correctly in TMPG, I just manualy increased the height of the image as shown. On a 4:3 pc, I'd use the software player to retain aspect ratio and squeeze the image down to 2.35:1, or on a 4:3 tv, use either the player to output to a 4:3 tv and render the image as letterbox beforehand, or if the tv has a 16:9 button, use that to compress the image.

Does that make sense?

Here's a pic of the letterbox setting:




HTH

Gary.

[coyote]

OK . . . . just a quick question. And I'm not being sarcastic, just really inquisitive (I really want to know).

Why can't you choose to make a dvd widescreen from the initial wizard menu. Then crop out the black bars from the original.

You then choose to make the dvd full screen using the original aspect ratio (this way, if it isn't perfectly 16:9, you will wind up with new letterboxing)

And this way it will play perfectly on your widescreen tv. If you were to play it on a 4:3 TV, the dvd player will simply adjust and create larger letterboxing.

[Gary Lightfoot]

Why can't you choose to make a dvd widescreen from the initial wizard menu. Then crop out the black bars from the original.

I did try doing the widescreen thing with TMPG, but I didn't have much luck with the settings - if you could tell/show me exactly how to do it, I'd love to do it that way because cropping the black bars *and* stretching to 16:9 is exactly what I'd like to do.

You could go on my christmas card list if this solves my problem.

TIA

Gary.

[Mythos2002]

If you have the time, you can try to use the Clip Frame filter without checking off the mask boxes. That is how I do it and it works for me. I have completed both ANH and ESB. I've test ESB on a widescreen TV and the image came out the way it was supposed to without being stretched.

What I do is choose 4:3 for source and 16:9 for output. I use Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio) for the Video Arrange Method. I clip 104 from the top and 100 from the bottom. I found out you could also clip around 60 from the top and 60 from the bottom and choose Full Screen. I prefer the Full Screen(Keep Aspect Ratio) method though.

I'm happy so far with the results. I have two areas in ANH where it looks like the video goes into slow motion for a couple of seconds, but I'm not going to worry about fixing it. Both scenes are in places that aren't noticeable and the audio is not affected or gets out of sync. I'm splitting each film up onto two DVD-R's. All I have left to do now is ROTJ and the extras. I hate having to worry about the subtitles in Jedi, but the ones I did for Hope turned out fine. The only problem is that you usually have to frameserve if you use Virtual Dub to add subtitles or else the file will be over 100 Gb since you have to use Full Processing Mode under Virtual Dub's video settings.

I'm worried more about the extras because I need to create a complex structure to allow several different movies. I'm going to put all of the trailers together as one movie, but I haven't figured out what I'm going to do about the other extras. The movies are my main concern, so I may skip the extras for now if they get to be too much of a headache.

Mythos

[ikon316]

http://videoeta.com/news/1562

I didnt read every post on all 20 pages, but if no one else posted this, here you go. if someone else already did, owell, just a bit of wasted time I guess.

[malcolm grant]

personally i copied the remastered pal widescreen versions through my E50, funnily enough the videos never contained any macrovision either!!!
regards
Malcs

[duhmez]

I must suggest onething. If you are going to deinterlace and ivtc, do the ivtc first. It will be faster and better.

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi guys,

thanks for all the tips and pm.

I'll try the suggestions tomorrow when my current render has finished so I can test them out.

ikon316 - thanks for the link, but Lucas has said that he won't ever release the original untouched trilogy, only the Special Editions (well, super special now, as he's added even more bits!). So currently, diy conversions from laserdisc or vhs is our only hope..

Cheers,

Gary.

[Mythos2002]

No problem. Remember to not check the mask checkboxes. That's what threw me off for a long time.

I hate to say it ikon, but someone posts a message like that on this thread every month or so. The problem is that many of us are doing the pre Special Edition versions because that is what we want and Lucas says that he will only release the Special Edition versions. Actually, some people come in here and suggest we buy pirated Ebay copies, but that defeats the fun of doing this project. Not to mention that this is legal whereas the Ebay versions are illegal.

I also saw someone mention deinterlacing. There is no need to deinterlace. Just do the IVTC and you'll be fine. The LD's are Telecined and not truly interlaced.

Mythos

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi Mythos,

if you look on page 19, you'll see my current settings before I got the advice here.

I guess I was half way there - I'd stretched the image tall enough for the rendered mpg to be anamorphic and look correct on a w/s tv etc. Cropping the black bars totaly looks like the way to go provided the end results AR is correct.

Gary.

[Gary Lightfoot]

Ok guys,

I just cropped the top and bottom of the letterboxed image so that it looks like this:



Then changed the setting to Full Screen, Keep Aspect Ratio, so it now looks like this:



I did a short render, but I'm not sure what it'll look like on my w/s tv - I could do a mini dvd with my re-writable though, and that would prove it one way or another.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again.

Gary

[Gary Lightfoot]

Well, after burning the new settings and the anamorphic settings (stretched by 60 top and bottom), I found the anamorphic settings are the ones that produce a picture that my w/s tv will stretch into the correct shape. The totaly cropped ones in 4:3 full screen are just letterboxed.

Is there a way of cropping the black bars but only getting a certain amount of stretching for true anamorphic output?

*EDIT* I'm going to try totaly cropping the black bars out, and using 'center custom' mode and manualy make the picture 720 x whatever size is needed to get an anamorphic image that will squish down to 2.35:1... I'm also going to try the NTSC 16:9 mode from the wizard which was also suggested - seems like a good option...

Also, the sounds - any good multiplexors out there? I split the sound and remove the hiss and normalise it, but I'm having trouble with getting TMPGenc to like the modified file for muxing back to the video.

TIA

Gary.

[Gary Lightfoot]

OK - finaly got it!

Used Coyotes suggestion of using the NTSC 16:9 suggestion and did a very quick render, and you get a tall skinny image which will become the correct 2.35:1 ratio when squished/stretched by a 16:9 tv. This allows you to remove the black bars total, end render just the image portion.

Now to add all the other tweaks and do a full overnight render for a final result.

Also - noise reduction - worth using? How many of you use it, and by how much? The 6 1 8 setting seems unobtrusive, but what do the results look like without it when compared?

Just need to cure the slight audio hiss and I'll be happy. :P

Gary.

[Mythos2002]

Gary,

The image you create should look okay on both 4:3 and 16:9 TV's if your DVD Player is setup properly.

I don't use any noise reduction at all because you gain very little and it adds so much extra time to the encode. Sometimes you can even lose detail if you use too much noise reduction. The settings you have in mind don't sound bad, but I would use the source range option to encode a minute long segment with and without noise reduction and check the results as well as the difference in time it takes to encode. Since we are dealing with analog sources, they is always going to be some noise. I cut 6 hours off of my encoding time by dropping noise reduction altogether.

Mythos

[vhelp]

Gary,

I agree w/ Mythos on this one. Try not to use any NR in your process, and
you'll be happier What will help quality some, is the process you use in
your final source's output, like the aspect ratio (AR) Earlier, you thought I was
a bit in my remarks on AR, but i was serious. Too much stretching
of your source can have a double-edge sword effect.
A) it could reduce your image quality some, and/or
B) it hurt your output some, maybe worse than A)

I say B) is worse beucase you'll distored the movie's original Noise Level
and when you encode it, you'll see the results in mostly the dark areas,
where things looks "blothy" or something.
.
.
When you perform a good AR, at least as close to the movie's original AR,
you'll have better control of the movie's orig. Noise Level, and have better
results in your fianl output quality - - specally when you AR it @ 16:9 and
2:35.1 the source. Always have an aim for the "same" feel of the orig.
movie's scope !!

-vhelp
PS: I'm glad you got a WS tv set. Now I have somebody to test my sample
WS clips with :P

[Gary Lightfoot]

Hi Mythos,

I have tried both no noise reduction, and the default, and I find there's still plenty of detail, but the odd effects such as fringing around some edges is reduced (only visible on close up), and the line twitter effect due to there only being 400 odd lines is also reduced using the default value. The source is noisy anyway, and this helps to mask it, giving a smoother looking image imho.

Vhelp,

using the 16:9 display output setting allows you to totaly crop all the black bars off, and the little side edges so that you end up with no unwanted black areas, less encoding time, and a perfect 2.35:1 ratio image complete with auto switching flag for your tv! So you gain in every respect with those settings. Again - thanks to Coyote for walking me through those settings. Anybody want me to post them here for future reference?

I've just played the newly encoded 2nd disk on my tv, and the result is very pleasing. It's only a 32inch screen though, so hides any imperfections. Bigger screens will show up the mpg blocking if it's there, though I've used the 'soften block noise' option in quantise matrix, and it seems to help. The encode was around 7hours or so for 23minutes. Altering the GOP to 1, 3, 2, 1, 15 may have helped too.

If you want to put some samples up, I'll gladly have a look at them - I'll try and do the same in return. It'll give me an idea if I'm on the right track at least...

I still need to address the slight hiss - I'll try to output as seperate files and fix the audio before multiplexing them both together. Still need a good program to make sure the combining process doesn't spoil TMPGs video encoding, or get the audio out of sync.

Anyone know how to use a third party audio program with TMPG and how it works with it? There's an option to do that, using tooLAME for example, but I'd like some advice from you guys here if you don't mind.

Thanks to all.

Gary.

[coyote]

Glad to know that I was of help. As I wrote to ya...it was just a basic way of doing it...not really getting into cleaning it up and everything.

If you keep fooling around to clean it up, please post what you did

[Mythos2002]

I'm glad you have it worked out Gary. I just finished the first 1/2 of Jedi today. I'm glad too since it has all the subtitles and I made it the larger 1/2 of the film. I put the first three sides of the LD's onto disc 1 which came out to a little over 77 minutes. I was worried because DVD-Lab said my file was too big to write to a DVD-R at 7.74Gb. It wrote to the DVD-R okay and I watched it from end to end and didn't have any problems. At least the 2nd disc will only be around 58 minutes.

I'm still debating about how to handle the extras. I'll probably cram them all on one disc if possible.

BTW. Here are the subtitles from Hope and Jedi. You can cut and paste these into a text file and cut and paste them into Sub Station Alpha or whichever subtitling program you use to speed things up. I didn't list times since your times may be a little different since you have the PAL LD's and I have NTSC.

Hope these will help.

Mythos

Hope Subtitles:
Going somewhere, Solo?
It's too late.
You should have paid him when you had the chance.
Jabba's put a price on your head so large...
...every bounty hunter in the galaxy will be looking for you.
I'm lucky I found you first.
If you give it to me, I might forget I found you.
Jabba's through with you.
He has no time for smugglers who drop their shipments...
...at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser.
You can tell that to Jabba. He may only take your ship.
That's the idea.
I've been looking forward to this for a long time.


Jedi Subtitles:
There will be no bargain.
I will not give up my favorite decoration.
I like Captain Solo where he is.
I have come for the bounty on this Wookiee.
At last we have the mighty Chewbacca.
I want fifty thousand. No less.
This bounty hunter is my kind of scum...
...fearless and inventive.
It's too late for that, Solo.
You may have been a good smuggler...
...but now you're Bantha fodder.
Take him away.
Bring her to me.
I'm sure.
I told you not to admit him.
He must be allowed to speak.
You weak-minded fool!
He's using an old Jedi mind trick.
Your mind powers will not work on me, boy.
There will no bargain, young Jedi.
I shall enjoy watching you die.
Bring me Solo and the Wookiee.
They will all suffer for this outrage.
Soon you will learn to appreciate me.
Move him into position.
Put him in.

[Gary Lightfoot]

My disks are NTSC too, which as you know is very problematic for motion using almost every other mpg2 renderer. Thank God for TMPGs easy settings and IVTC.

Thanks for the sub-titles. I've still a way to go to get to that, but that certainly helps. No doubt I'll be back her asking for more help when I get round to it.

Still experimenting with the sound...

Gary.

[spiderman2k1]

I just got my Panasonic E80H DVD recorder and will be making my own set from laser disc. Will post back on how good it come's out. One good thing about DVD recorder's you get to keep the Closer Caption Subtitle's