Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[Robster]

Myth, I don't think you did anything wrong. You want to do as little as possible when capturing because if you get it wrong you have to capture again.

My original captures all have the original black bars. They're just standard 2.35:1 images within a normal 4:3 frame.

Thing is - when I tried converting that test capture you sent me, I had no problems with the aspect ratio at all.

[vhelp]

Hi Mythos,

I hinted to you earlier about getting the proper 16:9 outputed encodes,
but you must've gotten lost :P

It's like this..

* you capture your 4:3 source (cause, that's what it is) then,
* you cut the boarders (black bars) and keep it at 720 (704 is ok, I use this res)
....note, by whatever means you use to cut/crop black bars, ie either by
....using Avisynth (aka, AVS) or vdub or any other .avi editor or frameserver,
....but note that most users use AVS for pretty much everything.
* then, when you're already, you feed this into TMPG... using:
--- 4:3 aspects (AR) (advance tab) and 16:9 (video tab)
.....note, you sometimes have to play w/ the AR settings (advance tab) a bit.
......becuase it depends upon HOW MUCH you cut/crop off the black bars

note, if you leave the black bars in place, and encode to 16:9 anyways, you'll
have problems

This is all assuming that the LD are 16:9 processed. But, I hesitate to believe
this, cause there weren't HDTVs then, nor WideScreen TVs either.. so when
you think about it, they did't (or wouldn't) of flagged or setup for 16:9
encodes, hence, the 16:9 issues you (and others maybe) are having here.
But, I haven't heard anyone complain (except yourself) that they are not
getting true 16:9 output. in fact, I believe that everyone here, so far, has
ONLY done 4:3 (keeping the black bars) So, that would make YOU first in
the list to find this bug w/ some LD, if not ALL of them.

-vhelp

[Mythos2002]

I finally got the right aspect ratio using 4:3 source and 16:9 display for video. What I did was crop the black bars off in Virtual Dub. I only did this to a 10 second clip. I didn't capture this way. I just loaded my AVI into Virtual Dub and used the null transform filter to crop the black bars off. I then used the settings mentioned above in TMPNGEnc along with 720x480 for aspect ratio under the stream type setting where it says MPEG-2 and used Full Screen Keep Aspect Ratio. The only problem now is that IVTC won't work properly. All this was done without Avisynth.

I was going to use it, but I got an error about the source not being YV12 or YUY. What a pain.

I just remembered something I forgot to ask. I know Robster's method works, but I was wondering if he is using the mask top and bottom option or using the clip top and bottom option on the clip frame setting. I've been using mask and was thinking that may be the problem.

Mythos

[Robster]

Clip Frame.

[Mythos2002]

Thanks Robster. That appears to be what my whole problem was with the aspect ratio. So, if I set my source to 4:3 525 Line (708x480), Video output to 16:9 Display, choose Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio), go into the Clip frame option and put 60 for top and 60 for bottom, everything looks right. What was giving me the problem was the ticking off the top and bottom mask options under the Clip Frame option. If I did that, I would end up with a picture in the middle and black bars on all 4 sides. If I untick the mask options, it would appear correct. The only reason I chose 60 for top and bottom was that where the black bars ended.

At least I know that now. Sorry for all of the time and questions trying to fix this problem. I wish I would have mentioned earlier that I was using the mask options under clip frame.

Mythos

[MetaPhaze]

I'm going to be joining in the laser disc conversion of a few movies as well. Star Wars Triliog, Indiana Jones, and some other disney classics that haven't been released on DVD. I'm probably going to start this next week and I am not familar with the capture process yet. Do any of you self proclaimed wizards hang around in IRC for real time help? If so where you guys at?

[Robster]

Myth, I'm surprised the settings file you FTPd from me didn't work properly. TMPGENc is a funny sod at times.

Meta - the Indy Jones films will be out on DVD in October.

[Hazza]

Thanks Flaninacupboard.

I ended up just cropping the 4:3 special feature (it was only between 3-5 minutes each for the three episodes) to 16:9 and although the top and bottom are cropped I did it is such a way not to miss the titles or too much of peoples heads. It actually looks great and now they are 16:9 too.

I have finally finished the Trilogy. I am very impressed how the VHS captures turned out on my 80 cm TV. The biggest pain was re-adding the subtitles for A New Hope and Return of the Jedi manually in Premiere but they look better than the original so was worth it.

Hazza.

PS - vhelp. Just out of curiosity I tried to capture from the VHS tapes and record to MiniDV (as opposed to using the analogue->digital Passthrough) and the camera refuses to record due to copy protection. But using the passthrough straight to PC works like a charm. Using DCR-TRV22E.

[Mythos2002]

I had some limited success making another test RW disc. I say limited because the disc played fine on my PC using WinDVD and other applications, but it refused to play on my standalone Pioneer. It would start, but it would pause and not move. I could fast forward, hit play, it would play for a second, and then pause again. I believe it has something to do with the AC3 track I made. I used 384kbps, but I read that Pioneers have trouble with BeSweet and 2 Channel AC3. I may try again at 224kbps because I also heard DVD supports 192, 224, and 256.

I used DVD Lab trial for the authoring. I'm happy because the sound was in sync all the way through on my PC unlike my previous test discs.

I have another small problem. The aspect ratio is correct. The problem is that I don't think I clipped enough off of the top and bottom when using Clip Frame in TMPNGEnc. I put 60 for the top value and 60 for the bottom value. When I played the disc on TV, I noticed I had black bars of two different shades. It was like some of the original black bars were still there instead of pure black bars. I hope that makes sense. For those of you who used TMPNGEnc to encode, I have to ask what values did you put in the Clip Frame settings for the top and bottom fields? I did not use the Mask checkboxes for top and bottom as I would have black bars on the sides (that is what I was using before when I complained about the aspect ratio not being correct).

Any help would be appreciated. I'm disappointed the test disc didn't work, but I was happy with the picture quality when I was able to play it on my PC. Thanks.

Mythos

[flaninacupboard]

Yeah, i have the same issue with my pioneer and bsweet, and you're the first other person i've seen mention it! A bitrate change won't help unfortunately, you'll need another AC3 encoder.
I've been using the bundled AC3 encoder with Scenarist, but that's a tad pricey....
According to DJRumpy in another thread, using ac3machine with out the bsweet gui gives better, more compatible results. This is perhaps worth you trying (but yes, means learning -another- program!)

I think the clipping i did was 119 and 116 top and bottom, but that's for PAL settings. just keep increasing the number until all the black is cropped. (if you have "resized image is used for preview" checked, uncheck it while setting the right clipping level)

[FT Shark]

The original post is over a year old and it keeps poping up on the leader board wow!!! Just buy the DVD's on ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&MfcI...ty=MetaEndSort

[MJPollard]

The original post is over a year old and it keeps poping up on the leader board wow!!! Just buy the DVD's on ebay:

Putting aside for a moment that fact that LucasFilm has not released the original trilogy on DVD (and won't until after Episode III hits the theaters, therefore any copies for sale on eBay are technically illegal), the best response to your query (quoting a well-known political slogan) would be, "It's the fun, stupid."

For most of us, video capturing, editing, and authoring is something we do for enjoyment. A project like putting the Star Wars films (or any not-yet-on-DVD video) onto DVD is a learning experience. It was for me, at least; as I went along, I learned things that helped me in subsequent projects. And, to be honest, the ones I did myself came out looking better than those "professional" illegal DVDs on eBay (an acquaintance has a set, which he let me borrow; I was not impressed).

[Robster]

My clip frame settings are about 60-62, can't remember exactly.

Basically just do as mentioned above. Bring up the the clip frame screen, move the slider so you're looking at a brightly-lit frame (the interior of the rebel ship at the start is fine) and increase the value till you hit the edge of the visible frame.

I don't have any problem with using different BeSweet bitrates on my Pioneer players. But realistically, there's little point in using more than 224kbps for two-channel AC-3. Every 2.0 track you find on commercial DVDs is at 192kps (or even less!). There's just no audible improvement in going much higher.

For my two-disc versions, I'm retaining the uncompressed PCM audio tracks. This sounds better than any AC-3 encoding. Only problem with that is that the video track has to be capped at 8200kbps to allow it to fit on. Looks great though - and sounds ace.

[FT Shark]

Putting aside for a moment that fact that LucasFilm has not released the original trilogy on DVD (and won't until after Episode III hits the theaters, therefore any copies for sale on eBay are technically illegal)

I don't believe them to be illegal. They are an overseas product that are readily available. They have been produced and distributed by 20th Century Fox.

[flaninacupboard]

The VCD's are legal, yes. But the DVD's are not.

The conversions we're doing all look better than the VCD's, and hopefully better than the pirate DVD's as well.

[Mythos2002]

Thanks for the information Flanina and Robster. I found that I need to clip 102 off the top and bottom to get rid of the original black bars from the LD capture. I used the technique Flanina told me about turning the "resized image is used for preview" off. I also used Robster's technique of finding a bright scene to check the settings.

As far as the AC3. I may try to do another attempt with 192 or 224 max. If that doesn't work, I may go to AC3 Machine or use the PCM option. The problem with PCM is that the audio got out of sync. However, that was when I used the encode where I foolishly added all of the I pictures. I have two encodes ready to try after I remix the original wav sound file. I have one with the GOP's set up the same way as Robster's and I have another with the GOP's setup using the KDVD Full D1 template. I used VBR on the first encode and CBR on the KDVD encode. When I get more time, I'll try each of those options to see which one I'm happiest with. I still have to do another encode because both of mine have the visible black bars from the LD captures since I used 60 instead of 102.

I do have one more question. Under the Video Stream Setting for Size, should I put 720x480 or 720x360? I ask because that will probably affect the size I need to clip in the Clip Frame setting. Robster used 60-62 for top and bottom. I had to use 102 for each with the Video size set to 720x480. My source is set to 4:3 525 line (NTSC, 704x480), My Video output is set to 16:9 Display, and my Video Arrange Method is set to Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio). I'm just using TMPNGEnc for encoding and not using any AVISynth script. After I finish this project, I may look at using AVISynth again in the future if I decide to do this project a second time.


Thanks,
Mythos

Note:
As far as Ebay goes. I really hate the idea for several reasons besides the fact that it is being illegal.

1.) Most of those DVD's are substandard quality as MJPollard stated.
2.) Most of them are only the Special Editions which I cannot stand.
3.) Any Original versions you can find are terrible quality because they crammed the whole film on one layer, have multiple subtitle streams that cannot be turned off showing up at the same time, have sound being out of sync., etc.
4.) The VCD's are legal, but I don't want VCD's, nor do I want the Special Editions which are the only versions that are legally sold on VCD's in other countries. They are not legal here in the States or they would have released them here.
5.) Look at all of those unscrupulous posts that do nothing but sell information on where to get illegal copies. That sickens me to no end.

If Lucas wasn't such an idiot or a kid who never grew up with such a huge ego, there wouldn't be so much illegal activity going on concerning Star Wars on those auction sites.

I only like the original versions of Star Wars Episodes IV-VI. I don't care for the prequels or the Special Editions.

[DivXExpert]

Does Lucas know how many people hate the special editions? Or how many people hate the prequels?

[flaninacupboard]

Myth 2 things,

In the advanced tab i think you want it set to 4:3 525 line NTSC, not 704X480 NTSC. I'm not sure because i rarely work with NTSC, so someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong!

I am however sure that in the video tab your resolution must be 720X480 and not 720X360. 720X360 is not supported by DVD.

As for PCM, it shouldn't cause sync problems assuming you're setting it to 48khz, and not 44.1khz, although i think we attributed this to your butchered GOP previously didn't we...? PCM on the 2 disc version will work out OK, you still get 8.5 MBPS CBR for video, which is pretty good! for a one disc version you need to get something sorted AC3 wise.

How does the KDVD style encode look? any perceptible difference between that and the encode with the standard GOPS and matrices?

Ok, so that was 4 points

[MJPollard]

The VCD's are legal, yes. But the DVD's are not.

The conversions we're doing all look better than the VCD's, and hopefully better than the pirate DVD's as well.

I can definitely vouch for the latter. I did a comparison between the ones I transferred from laserdisc and the bootleg DVDs a friend loaned to me, and mine made the bootlegs look sick. (Of course, the Special Edition conversions I did blew both of those away, thanks to the remastering Lucasfilm did to the video on the SEs.) And the menus on the bootlegs look like some no-talent grade school kid cribbed them together with scissors, construction paper, and images clipped out of a magazine. Very non-professional looking; mine won't win any awards, either, but I at least tried to make them look good. I even used the EPISODE 1 font for the menu selections.

[Mythos2002]

Thanks Flanina. I'll try those settings. The KDVD template didn't look too different, but it looked better because it wasn't as dark as doing it with the standard settings.

I'll try PCM as well. I believe you're right in saying that the sync issue was caused by my messed up GOP's.


DivxExpert: I'm not sure if he knows or not. I think he has a guess or he wouldn't have made a recent announcement at the ILM commemoration that he would never release the original versions again. Even if he knows, he doesn't care unless it would be something that would hit him very hard in the wallet.

Mythos

[Robster]

i think you want it set to 4:3 525 line NTSC

That's what I use.

Myth - your clip numbers sound about correct for a 4:3 encoded conversion. The numbers I gave earlier were for my 16:9 2-disc verisions.

[Robster]

btw the big link for the pirate DVDs on Ebay is shagging up the page formatting here.

[Robster]

Ignore what I just said about 16:9 clip number being different. Mistake. Talking out my arse again

[Mythos2002]

I was wondering how everyone was coming along with this project. I haven't had time to work on it, but I'm getting ready to start again.

Mythos

[Robster]

Well, my single-disc versions were finished some time back. I now also have the dual-disc versions of SW and ESB complete, using a fixed bix rate of 8200kbps and uncompressed PCM audio. Certainly nicer quality than the single-disc.

[Mythos2002]

I was curious about what everyone was doing for their menus. Did you use a picture from the movie for the backgrounds? Did you use a picture from the posters for the backgrounds? Did you add background music? Etc.

Mythos

[Robster]

Myth, as you know I use DVD-Lab for my authoring. It has some really nice menu creation facilities. For the SW single-disc versions I just used a copy of the original film poster overlayed onto a starfield background. Very, very simple and as basic as it gets, but functional.

For the scene selection I just pulled individual frames out of the preview in DVD-Lab and used them as thumbnails. It was then just a case of adding the text and getting the menu navigation sorted out.

I did use music for the menus. I just nicked a few tracks from the soundtrack CD to each film and trimmed down the tracks I wanted to use so as not to use too much space. I then encoded them into DD 2.0 using BeSweet and imported them into DVD-Lab.

I even put an easter-egg on the SW disc listing the equipment and software I used for the conversion. I used the Cantina Band tune on that screen

I've not bothered doing menus for the two-disc version. I've added a lot more chapters though - pretty much for every scene.

[Mythos2002]

That sounds pretty cool. I'm still fiddling with the menus. I screwed up somewhere on the buttons while making a test disc. Since I wanted to test sound sync. I just made a simple two screen menu with squares. I ended up with double images of the squares.

The test disc itself came out pretty good. I used PCM and the audio appeared to remain in sync. My girlfriend says it looks out of sync. I wish there was a way to get a third opinion on it by having someone look at the clip. PCM appears to be the way for me to go since my Pioneer can't handle BeSweet's DD2.0 AC3.

Crap. It is out of sync like she said. I took a closer look towards the end of the DVD and the audio trails 1/2 second behind the video. This is driving me crazy. I may have to save up for one of those ADVC-1394's, but I don't know if they will work with my PC since I have the dreaded VIA KT333 chipset. Well, everything looks in sync to me. It's just when DVD Lab finishes with the authored DVD that I notice the sync problem. Any ideas?


Mythos

[Robster]

Are you using the latest version of DVD-Lab? Newest one is 1.3 Beta 2.

[Hazza]

I made in-sync copies of all three movies using DVD-Lab 1.1 and 1.3 Beta. I ended up just encoding to a video+audio stream with TMPGEnc and not letting DVD-Lab demux and mux it to make the Vobs. Resulting DVD is in-sync right to the end. I was using MPEG audio though.

Hazza

PS - I am in PAL land