Star Wars Conversions-Hit me with your best shot...

[DJRumpy]

Oz was telecined from a 23.976 source (or it appears to be at least). The video on DVD is actaully 23.976 fps. The pulldown flags make it look like 29.97. Ignoring those should have given me a completely progressive (SMOOTH) source. It didn't. I've never had that happen before. I had to pull the original 29.97 (telecine and all) to disk, and then manually perform IVTC. It's still jerky. DVD2AVI reported these sections as 'Interlaced', even though manual verification showed a distinct 3:2 pulldown pattern for most of those sections, with some odd Progressive/Interlaced patterns that fit nothing I recognize.

I am asking how if I "put" the laserdisc video back to the 24fps that it originated at (the LD, not the film), how it will appear jerky on the computer even though it doesn't on the laserdisc.

This is why I brought up the Oz topic. The video that is restored to 23.976 (all IVTC frames removed), is also jerky. The interlace pattern in these sections is completely off the wall, like 1P:1I:1P:3I:1P:2I:3P:1I, etc. At least the output from the SW caps can be blamed on true interlaced frames.

By the by, I confirmed the Mode 3 is part of AVISynth 2.5. It performs IVTC, and deinerlaces any frames that slip past the IVTC filter, using a blend, or an extrapolation method of the two adjacent frames. This mode is not available in 2.0

[borghe]

At least the output from the SW caps can be blamed on true interlaced frames.

Not really. SW is just as much 24p as OZ is. The whole (non-interlaced) frame is individually stored on the CAV laserdisc.

I get what you are saying, and for OZ at least I think I have a thought. What if they adjusted the MPEG2 stream to not include the 3:2 flag on certain frames? It would still appear to be a pppiipppii pattern but when it gets to the DVD player it may treat it as ppiiiippii. Just a thought.

As for Star Wars, I guess I can see the same thing, although the 3:2 flag obviously doesn't hold. I wonder if you can flag frames of the CAV disc to be outputted by the LD player differently than the standard flags. I've never heard of that capability in the LD standard, but I am far from an expert on it. I just know the way the frames are stored and that the counter on the laserdisc falls exactly 21% behind the counter on Premiere's capture window.

I will say that overall I am happier with the output from mode=0 than mode=3. I didn't have time last night to check the video as I spent all of it manually searching for shot changes for I frames, but in doing that I saw absolutely no errors on the blended field frames I was describing before. Mode 3 had tons of those errors. In looking at the original video they are certainly present there. But using mode=0, Decimate manages to filter every single last one out. That is where I started questioning the thought on video source for some of the laserdisc. From what I can tell, through hours of direct A/B comparison, Decomb restored every single last frame of the CAV laserdisc to perfect quality. Mode=3 most certainly did not.

Like I said, maybe you can flag frames on the laserdisc to play back differently. Anything is possible I guess.

[Robster]

Guys, I have a couple of short clips from my SW conversion - but what is the best way to present them to you? I can make a short DVD folder set but I can't figure out how make a new AVI file from the .m2v and .ac3 files.

[DJRumpy]

Use DVD2AVI. FILE SAVE AVI. Pick a good compressable codec, like DivX, or Xvid. It will generate a new AVI.

[borghe]

the only thing to be careful about is that if you turn them into AVI and MP#, that kind of defeats the purpose of showing us what you've done. Your best bet is to just reencode a small part to separate files. So if you are serving the stuff through avisynth, just take you file you're loading and use the Trim(start frame, end frame) command to encode like 2-5 minutes worth. Load the same Trimmed avisynth script into VDub, save the WAV, encode that, then mux the two together. That will be an exact representation of what you are doing.

Otherwise if you really want to send the DVD to AVI, there are a ton of ways. I recommend looking them up on here or www.doom9.org. DIVX or WM9 is probably preferable.

[Robster]

Nah, it' s OK. I just wanted a convenient way of packaging them up really. I'll just zip the DVD folders - simpler.

Problem is, each of the clips is > 25mb. I dont want to drop the rates because as you say, it wont be showing off how the conversions really look.

If you lot are OK to download four clips ranging from 25 to 40mb, I'm quite happy to put them up for FTP.

[vhelp]

@ Robster..

Don't worry too much about the size. Just don't go 100MB.. you know ?

Anyways.., what you had is fine (even for us slow Dialup users) ..grin..
I would just let it D/L while I do other things, or later on or else, when I
get in to work, ..can D/L REAL FAST hehe.. And, if their too big for some,
they don't have to D/L them.

yeah.. so go ahead and U/L them all you want.

Later on.
-vhelp

[Robster]

OK, I'll get the FTP set up tomorrow and leave it up over the weekend. I'm on DSL so my upload is 256 max. I'll have to limit the sessions quite severely.

[CaseyComb]

When your done with the conversions check out this site for hi-res DVD covers:

http://www.prillaman.net/dvd-covers-starwars.html#trilogy

[Styro]

You must be doing a very high quality copy.

I was just thinking of capturing my SE LDs using powervcr2 with a setting of 8Mb for video (with maybe some adjustments for a dark picture), and the standard 48K x 384Kb for audio. Powervcr2 has a decent static filter built-in to get rid of some noise (usually only seen in letterbox areas). I would then put through procoder and/or premiere to get a VBR mpeg.

The audio I was thinking to just leave it in stereo, but I might try promoting it to a pseudo-ac3 stream. Something along the lines of - taking the stereo to mono and filtering for main voice for the center channel, no processing for front channels, taking the main stereo and changing it somehow for the surround (rear) stereo, and taking the mono and filtering for bass for the bass channel. And a final levels processing for all channels. Dunno how that would sound. Just trying out ideas.

This project is just for my own use (educational), and maybe interested family members to borrow (for criticism). Seems fair-use laws should be ok with it.

- Styro

[CaseyComb]

I too plan on converting my Star Wars SE laserdiscs to DVD my process is going to be this:

1.) Dump onto set top DVD Recorder in High Quality mode (About 1 hour of video per disc)

2.) Dump that onto PC

3.) Re-Encode and Clip Frame in TMPGenc using 2-Pass VBR

4.) Author DVD

5.) Then if necessary Shrink w/DVD2ONE or Instant Copy

This should look fairly good when done, no 5.1 but I can live with that.

[Robster]

Styro, the PCM Dolby Surround stero soundtracks on the SW LDs already sound excellent. Any jiggery-pokery is likely to make them sound worse in terms of channel separation and front-back imaging.

[Styro]

CaseyComb

Sounds like a good method. Does your set top dvd recorder handle the pcm ac3 stream, or are you just going to pull the stereo (with PL surround)?

I was going to ask how you were going to re-encode in tmpgenc, but I think I figured that out. 't' doesn't like mpeg2 as input, but will take m2v and an audio source. Maybe I can try that on a few sections and make sure the audio doesn't go async (or maybe re-mux the audio after the re-encode).

Thanks for some ideas.

-- Styro

[Styro]

Robster,

Now that I think about it some more, I think you are right. Just leave the stereo (with PL surround) alone. It should sound good on any theatre setup.

If it doesn't sound good on my home theatre setup then I can always change the receiver setting to do 'neo-6' or 'circle-surround' mode.

-- Styro

[flaninacupboard]

right, a few points.
one, the film is -defintely- hard teleclined at 29.97 fps. this is why an NTSC CAV laserdisc travels at 1800rpm producing 29.97 frames a second and last 30 minutes, while a PAL CAV laserdisc travels at 1500rpm producing 25fps for 36 minutes. the flags present on the discs are there so that when playing the disc frame by frame (e.g. slo-mo) you get progressive frames as opposed to interlaced ones. so during normal playback the flags have no effect at all. the method i suggested earlier in the thread -would- give you a progressive output. this method was to start up your CAV disc and freeze frame it. setup your favourite infrared transciever to transmit "advance frame" to the LD player 10 times a second, and ask virtual dub to capture at 10fps. you'll end up with a movie about 4.5 hours long instead of 2 hours, but at only 10 fps. simply open up in TMPGenc, and check the "do not frame rate convert" option, and output to 23.976fps. you'll need to cap your audio seperately and re-sync it. if i were doing CAV NTSC sets that's how i'd do it. fortunately with PAL being 25fps i never have to touch IVTC.....

on the sound front,
the Dolby surround mix on the digital PCM stereo tracks is good enough for me, and if when you encode to Dolby Digital you make sure the "pr logic" flag is on, your A/V amp will automatically switch to pro logic (or pro logic 2 if you have it) mode, making the best you can out of the sound. performing this operation yourself on the computer is wasteful, especially given we're all pushed for disc space (unless any of you out there have your own pessing factory...?)

another point i wanted to make, anyone in the UK who doesn;t have the lasers but wants something other than VHS, ITV1 are showing episode 4 5 and 6 again over the next few weeks. episode 4 is on tomorrow night. last time they showed them they did it in anamorphic 16X9 so if you've got Sky digital or NTL digital you're in for a treat! only thing is they've cropped the film to be only 16X9, so that full 2.35 will either have to come off laser, or you have to wait for Lucas. bleuch.

[energy80s]

Anyone in the UK who doesn't have the lasers but wants something other than VHS, ITV1 are showing episode 4 5 and 6 again over the next few weeks. episode 4 is on tomorrow night. last time they showed them they did it in anamorphic 16X9 so if you've got Sky digital or NTL digital you're in for a treat! only thing is they've cropped the film to be only 16X9, so that full 2.35 will either have to come off laser, or you have to wait for Lucas. bleuch.

I'm hoping to get a full direct digital copy off DTT, I'll let you know how I get on. It's just a pity that they are showing the remastered versions, I would have preferred the originals, but I don't think they were available in 16:9 format.

[vhelp]

Evening all - TGIF..

@ flaninacupboard..

So, what about us DirecTV subscribers ??

-vhelp

[Robster]

only thing is they've cropped the film to be only 16X9

Sacrilige!

[Robster]

I'm afraid the examples are going to have to wait a little bit. I need to re-capture the LDs. I thought I was OK capturing with the black level at IRE7.5 but on examination of a test DVD I've done tonight, the shadows are getting 'crushed'. For example, during the opening text crawl, none of the stars are really visible.

Oh well, we live and learn.

[vhelp]

@ Robster..

I think I already know where you're headed. I wouldn't change the swith
to lighter color, and then encode w/ filter the colors some.

You are forgetting that some of the loss of detail is due to capturing. That
means some color too. I would rather have my final encodes a bit darker
than have them light, and have to resort to filtering the colors some.
But, if it works for you, go ahead. It's just that I've done this before and
found that it was harder to tweak the color levels just right. In the end,
(for me) it wasn't worth it. So, its just some words of wisdom, on my part

Later on.
-vhelp

[Robster]

To be fair the colours look really good on both captures, but the black level isn't right on either. At IRE0 it's too light and at 7.5, a bit too dark. For the captures I've been working on over the last few days I've been bumping the brightness up a few notches in TMPGEnc. With the 0 captures, I'll need to drop it a tad, but not much and from the test I've just done, it looks like I'll end up with better result. At the end of the day, it's better to have to reduce something rather than try and expand what is not there to begin with.

[vhelp]

@ Robster..

>> At the end of the day, it's better to have to reduce something rather
>> than try and expand what is not there to begin with.

Ok then.. Just remember, that altering the color levels (by any amount)
will also relect the final Encode Quality and Size.

I hope that it works out ok for you, good luck
-vhelp

[Robster]

Exactly what kind of negative effect would lowering the brightness a couple of points have on a TMPGEnc encode?

If I were to frameserve it from Virtual Dub - doing the brightness adjustment from there- would that negate the issue?

[vhelp]

@ Robster,

Altering the "color" will in fact, change the way TMPG encodes the MPEG.

You are giving it a NEW source to encode. Just because the source has
not change (frame wise) doesn't mean it will be the same. You have now
changed the aspect of it. Changing the color, is no better than performing
a temporal smoother or 3d smoother or what ever. It's a BITMAP, and as
such, you have (are) altered the pixels, hence, filtering.
And, encoding the whole MPEG on a large scale (ie, the whole Movie) will
have a dramatic affect to some degree. Usually, it's the size the changes,
but also the "level" of quality too. Maybe a lot, or maybe a little.

Just do some test encodes and see for yourself. But, if it looks fine to you,
then no matter

-vhelp

[Mythos2002]

I was wondering if someone could help me with the posting of a file so I can have people look at it and tell me what they think and how I can improve it. I could host it myself if I could find a good ftp site. My file is around 25megs and it is an MPG. I chose MPG just so I could make sure the audio and video were in sync.

I'm trying out different AVISynth filters like Temporalsmoother instead of using VirtualDub's. I've gotten just about all of the jerkiness out, but I'm still not completely happy with the picture do to some noise and the colors are a little dark.

I'm still trying to encode the sound separately, but I really haven't had a problem with TMPENGenc doing the sound in PCM. It sounds pretty good to me. When I encoded with BeSweet and Lame, no sound was able to be heard from the files those programs produced.

Mythos

[Robster]

Actually Vhelp, scrub what I said above. I've been toying a bit more with the Brightness control in TMPGEnc and by raising it a litte higher (to 15 rather than 5) I get as much shadow detail as with the IRE0 capture but with less 'washout'. I think this will have to be the happy medium.

btw, I've been playing with a DVD authoring app called DVD-Lab. The cost is $79 (30 day unlimited trial) but from what I've seen so far it's terrific. Proper menu creation abilities (including moving and audio), Dolby Digital and DTS support (import only - it can't encode for you) and some really neat effects. I've not seen anything at this price point that has half the capabilities. Everything under the $400 mark doesn't seem to include Dolby support - except this!

[vhelp]

@ Robster..

>> Actually..

yes, whatever works for YOU. Thats' what matters We all have oppinions
and that all they are. I'm glad its working for ya though.

Suggestion.. and recommend..
Listen, don't get rid of that .AVI file just yet. After burning to CDR, give
a good looking at the playing quality. You'll see. Make sure you like it,
cause you really don't want to have to re-capture it if you should later on,
come to the conclusion that you don't like it after all, or start to notice
anything unusual, (but that you didn't see it when you quickly tested it)

The above, these things have happened to me. And, I've made lots of
these. So, it's just some more of my wisdom.

I know I would be having LOTS of fun if I had an LD player and these (and
other) great (original) films. By "original" I mean, what will NEVER be on
DVD, cause the masters of such, realised they could screw us all, in the
name of $$$.$$ So, relish in the moment w/ what you have now


Hmmm.... where's the link to DVD-Lab ??
Is this a big app, or nice an tiny ?? I"m looking for an app that will make me
some VOB files (for testing) but I don't want an elephant

-vhelp

[Robster]

The test DVD I've done so far of Star Wars have looked pretty impressive to me. They look essentially the 'same' as the LaserDiscs in terms of resolution and detail, but the artifacts are different. LD is analogue picture so you get noise, but that noise when converted to MPEG2 looks different, obviously. I'm encoding them in 16:9 enhanced so when played back I don't get the 'gridline' effect that is there in 4:3 NTSC material.

Once I do the captures, I splice them in VirtualDub then add permanent subtitles in Vegas Video becuase they looks loads better than the originals (plus subs should be in the picture area, not below - they're part of the film!). The resulting .avi is then split into sections and archived onto DVD-R so I can go back in the future and work on them again if need be.

Another advantage of older films on LD is the soundtracks. The uncompressed PCM audio of films such as The Piano are so rich and detailed compared to the thin Dolby 2.0 tracks found on DVD. I've also still got my copy of Pink Floyd's Pulse concert which sounds amazing in PCM.

[Robster]

DVDLab:

http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/

The download is about 17mb.

[Mythos2002]

I noticed earlier that steve 996 said he used a sharpening filter set at 32:52. What is this filter and in what program did he use it?

I'm just about happy with my tests so far. I just don't know if I'm doing the correct aspect ratio. My goal is 16:9. What should I do to obtain that and preserve the 2.35:1 aspect ratio? I capture at 720x480 and convert to 720x360 after clipping the bars off in TMPENGenc with the clip frame option. TMPENGenc reports that it the input is 16:9 720x480/ 16:9 525 line (NTSC) and the output is 16:9 720x360/ 16:9 Display. Is this correct if I want the correct aspect ratio and anamorphic widescreen. I use the center keep aspect ratio for the arrange method. Thanks.

Mythos